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Explain Volley damage

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Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:13:00 - [1] I hear people mention this once in a while. I'm apparently very ignorant. Does grouping your weapons in a single volley do more damage than spreading out the incoming fire over a few seconds? I often make a point of stringing missles just to watch the endless line of death march on. But am I gimping my damage by doing so? If so, by what factor? Am I losing a handful of hit points per shot, or hundreds? Obviously, I'm talking about PVE. In PVP I have my weapons hot before I have a lock, so it's all volley all the way.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:18:00 - [2] Volley damage is in short the amount of damage done by all of your weapons in a single shot (or volley)- it's also refered to as an "alpha strike" (I suspect because of Mechwarrior but I could be mistaken - in MW you had a button bound to "alpha strike" which fired all weapons on your Mech at the same time) The single shot volley damage is important in some scenarioes. For example, having a 25k hp/s active tank ("achievable" for all of 30 seconds or so on a State issue Raven if you had unlimited ISK to spend) is of little use if you are facing enough firepower to kill you in one shot. Alpha strike is good for "one shotting" ships. Stealth bombers can often kill T1 frigates in a singe volley for example. On larger ships the increases in EHP has made the true usefulness of the alpha strike fairly useless on the individual ship level.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:19:00 - [3] You are reducing your initial DPS by stringing out your shots like that but frankly I doubt it makes much of a difference in the big picture. Volley damage is really just important in situations where the alpha or volley is enough to one-shot your target. For instance you might have the same DPS out of a turret boat and a missile boat but if the missile boat can front-load all that damage so that the target dies immediately as opposed to the turret boat that takes 8 seconds to finish the kill, then volley damage matters just as much as the overall DPS (I like run on sentences).
Cogswin Iannyen Caldari Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:20:00 - [4] Alpha = beginning.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:22:00 - [5] Well, yes. You're losing damage... but not as much as you might think. The damage that you're losing is strictly related to the time that you are not shooting. Thus, you lose X damage until all your weapons are actually firing. Now, as to the uses of volley damage: - Breaking through repping tanks (alpha strike people through their tank and into armor/hull enough times and they'll pop no matter how many remote reps are on them) - Breaking through passive shield tanks (alpha strike from 40% shields to 15% shields and you completely bypassed their peak recharge rate). - Instapopping targets of opportunity In both of these situations volley/alpha damage is important. It's not as important in situations where DPS is actually more important (such as PVE and fleet battles). -Liang
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.19 17:22:00 - [6] As a fun correlary the DPS figure often leads people to belive their ship is always putting out better damage than a low dps/high alpha ship. In reality, it often takes several volleys from each side for the HIGH dps number to actually achieve it's better damage output. As such a fleet of super high dps/low alpha ships will actually be outdamaged for a short time by high alpha/low dps ships.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:40:00 - [7] Alright, so I more or less had the right idea. What I see implied often is that grouping into volleys somehow actually does more damage. Obviously it does, as a group, but not individually, which is what matters. It's funny how often people DEEPLY misunderstand how eve works.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 18:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Locke DieDrake It's funny how often people DEEPLY misunderstand how eve works. If only you knew how funny it really was. :) -Liang
Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:04:00 - [9] volley damage in pve too tbh, i also have a hunch the npc launches less defender missiles at you if you volley over the more visually pleasing line of missiles.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Viqtoria volley damage in pve too tbh, i also have a hunch the npc launches less defender missiles at you if you volley over the more visually pleasing line of missiles. The devs have explicitly stated that this is not the case. NPC's have a set chance to launch a defender per missile launched. This was mentioned during the great Golem vs CNR debates. -Liang

Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Alright, so I more or less had the right idea. What I see implied often is that grouping into volleys somehow actually does more damage. Obviously it does, as a group, but not individually, which is what matters. It's funny how often people DEEPLY misunderstand how eve works. volley can increase your dps, the last volley that hits will do xxxx volley damage and if that volley destroys the target the dps and volley damage are then effectively equal, rather than the volley damage being spread out over the entirety of the firing cycle, during which time the target could tank xxx amount of your damage. it's a reasonably pointless point i'm making but i thought i'd make it anyway lol
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Viqtoria Originally by: Locke DieDrake Alright, so I more or less had the right idea. What I see implied often is that grouping into volleys somehow actually does more damage. Obviously it does, as a group, but not individually, which is what matters. It's funny how often people DEEPLY misunderstand how eve works. volley can increase your dps, the last volley that hits will do xxxx volley damage and if that volley destroys the target the dps and volley damage are then effectively equal, rather than the volley damage being spread out over the entirety of the firing cycle, during which time the target could tank xxx amount of your damage. it's a reasonably pointless point i'm making but i thought i'd make it anyway lol Actually, since guns are "hit scan" weapons (the instant they fire they hit), the very instant they fire (say the frame/tic) they are actually dealing infinite DPS, with a fininte alpha.
Viqtoria Caldari Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:23:00 - [13] nerf infinite dps ships tbh!
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.19 23:46:00 - [14] Volley damage is important in situations where your target will not survive for a very long. In such situations, the fewer number of times your weapons need to fire the greater the artificial increase in your DPS (damage per second) or "Blue Shift" of your damage. I will site a few hypothetical examples for clarity Lets say you are flying a ship that deals 100 DPS with a rate of fire of 10 seconds. This means that you will deal a volley of 1000 damage every 10 seconds. Target A possesses 5000 HP. Assuming no repairs, you will need to fire your guns 5 times to deal the 5000 HP of damage necessary to kill target A. This will take you 40 seconds (the first volley will occur at time = 0 seconds). Your effective DPS in this situation was not 100 DPS, it was (5000/40sec) 125 DPS. This is due to the fact that your finally volley instantaneously delivered the damage of 10 seconds worth of DPS that was required to kill the target. Another example. Target B possesses 2000 HP. Assuming no repairs, you need only fire twice to kill target B. As volley one occurs at Time = 0 and volley two occurs at Time = 10sec, you do an effective (2000/10sec) 200 DPS. Now lets say you are in a ship that does 150 DPS with a rate of fire of 2 seconds. Your volley will be 300 damage. Against Target A (5000 HP) you will need to fire 17 volleys to deal the necessary damage to destroy the target. This will take 32 seconds. Your effective DPS is (5000/32sec) 156.25 DPS. Against Target B (2000 HP) you will need to fire 7 volleys to deal necessary damage to destroy the target. This will take 12 seconds. Your effective DPS is 166.67 DPS. As you can see, as the timeframe becomes shorter and shorter, the ship with the larger volley gains more of an advantage in artifical damage increase. In the case of target B, the ship with the lower DPS ends up killing the target quicker. This is the heart of the alpha strike game, and is a premise behind large fleet blob warfare where you call primary and attempt to kill the target in as few volleys as possible. Please note, the blue shift from volley damage is most noticeable in Turret ships. Missile damage behaves differently due to flight time and often times can experience a red shift in DPS (decrease in effective DPS) in brief battles at long range.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.19 23:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Wannabehero As you can see, as the timeframe becomes shorter and shorter, the ship with the larger volley gains more of an advantage in artifical damage increase. In the case of target B, the ship with the lower DPS ends up killing the target quicker. The above is why the below statement is false (or should be): Quote: This is the heart of the alpha strike game, and is a premise behind large fleet blob warfare where you call primary and attempt to kill the target in as few volleys as possible. When was the last time that a fleet battle really lasted "a short time"? Otherwise, your post is really spot on. -Liang
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.19 23:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wannabehero As you can see, as the timeframe becomes shorter and shorter, the ship with the larger volley gains more of an advantage in artifical damage increase. In the case of target B, the ship with the lower DPS ends up killing the target quicker. The above is why the below statement is false (or should be): Quote: This is the heart of the alpha strike game, and is a premise behind large fleet blob warfare where you call primary and attempt to kill the target in as few volleys as possible. When was the last time that a fleet battle really lasted "a short time"? Otherwise, your post is really spot on. -Liang Short time per target. My mistake, needed clarification.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.19 23:55:00 - [17] I think he means that DPS rules out over alpha because high alpha/low DPS guns only retain a small advantage over a very short time period.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:00:00 - [18] Edited by: Wannabehero on 20/08/2008 00:01:03 Originally by: AstroPhobic I think he means that DPS rules out over alpha because high alpha/low DPS guns only retain a small advantage over a very short time period. This as well, when the cycle time on your guns is sufficiently long that another target is locked and ready to be destroyed before the guns are ready to fire, you loose some initial DPS, but hopefully gain some of that artificial DPS back in the back end when you do not need to land another volley to kill the target because your intervening volleys are so large. In the end, it tends to even out. High DPS high ROF ships can bring DPS to bare more quickly on new targets, larger volley ships gain artificial DPS once they can fire again. It is spelled "bare" not "bear", spelling correction
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:02:00 - [19] It's a good theory - but when applied to current artillery mechanics against say a beampoc (even megathrons, though I think that's a bit more about EHP), it fails dearly. The gain from the current alpha is simply not enough to overcome the low DPS.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Wannabehero In the end, it tends to even out. High DPS high ROF ships can bring DPS to bare more quickly on new targets, larger volley ships gain artificial DPS once they can fire again. It doesn't really even out though, and there's a number of reasons for it: - Arty ships generally have low HP - Arty ships generally lose alot of DPS to "overstriking" (the effect of dealing 2000 more damage to a target than it took to actually kill it) - Arty ships generally have lower DPS Aggregate fleet combat (assuming that you can keep the target calling queues full) really boils down to a battle of DPS/EHP. Sadly, this can almost be proven by induction (It's true for 1, N, and N+1). -Liang

Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:11:00 - [21] Originally by: AstroPhobic It's a good theory - but when applied to current artillery mechanics against say a beampoc (even megathrons, though I think that's a bit more about EHP), it fails dearly. The gain from the current alpha is simply not enough to overcome the low DPS. Truth. The alpha on Artillery could be devastating if it was larger. Personally I think that matari ship bonuses should be all +damage, not RoF. They eat up ammo to fast as it is. 25% - 37.5% larger alphas would go far towards making 'Pests and Maels more appealing in fleets. Sorry, don't mean to derail this thread into another Arty sux thread (though I agree, artillery has problems)
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:15:00 - [22] It's the easiest fix too. CCP doesn't like it for whatever reason, so it's kind of a "wait-and-see". And hell, it's impossible from making a thread about volley damage not turn into an artillery whine, as the whole design concept of artillery is exactly that.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:20:00 - [23] Edited by: Wannabehero on 20/08/2008 00:21:21 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wannabehero In the end, it tends to even out. High DPS high ROF ships can bring DPS to bare more quickly on new targets, larger volley ships gain artificial DPS once they can fire again. It doesn't really even out though, and there's a number of reasons for it: - Arty ships generally have low HP - Arty ships generally lose alot of DPS to "overstriking" (the effect of dealing 2000 more damage to a target than it took to actually kill it) - Arty ships generally have lower DPS Aggregate fleet combat (assuming that you can keep the target calling queues full) really boils down to a battle of DPS/EHP. Sadly, this can almost be proven by induction (It's true for 1, N, and N+1). -Liang While all valid points, this has more to do with the shortcomings of artillery, not the nature of volley damage. Alpha strike potential could validate why a lower DPS system would be balanced with a higher DPS one (and indeed used too), but currently in EVE EHP is too high for this arguement anymore or ever again. That is to say, you are right. Originally by: Astrophobic And hell, it's impossible from making a thread about volley damage not turn into an artillery whine, as the whole design concept of artillery is exactly that. touchT
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 00:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Wannabehero Truth. The alpha on Artillery could be devastating if it was larger. Personally I think that matari ship bonuses should be all +damage, not RoF. They eat up ammo to fast as it is. 25% - 37.5% larger alphas would go far towards making 'Pests and Maels more appealing in fleets. Sorry, don't mean to derail this thread into another Arty sux thread (though I agree, artillery has problems) So I guess I don't get my alpha isn't what it used to be thread. :P Anyway, you have a really good grasp of how it works... and the above was a really good post (the one up there, you know?) -Liang
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.20 01:07:00 - [25] Alpha strike for dummies: Lets say you do 10 damage per hit out of a set of 8 weapons, and the target can repair 5 damage every hit. stringing out damage: -10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5..-10..+5 Doing 5 damage per hit hitting in one go (alpha strike) -80..+5..+5..+5..+5..+5..+5..+5..+5..-80 intial damage is 80, but as the weapons cycle, the target can rep back the damage and you'd still end up doing 5 damage per hit. Alpha strike in the example above would be very useful if the target had 80pts of HP or less, as one-shotting it would put it out, instead of stringing it and letting it stay on the field longer, letting it have a bigger effect as it lasts. For smaller targets, alpha strike is the killer, bigger targets can survive an alpha produced by most ships, which means DPS is far more important if the target can survive the alpha and/or tank it.
Arakidias Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.08.20 11:56:00 - [26] Volley damage is important in PVE, especially with marauders, which, given enough skills and equipment, can one shot pretty much everything below battleships, excluding elite frigs/cruisers. It's much better to use one volley, with 8 second rate of fire to kill a target than two with a 6 second ROF. Because of that, a golem's killspeed is often limited to how fast you can change targets and the target painters cycle time.
Unbound	Posted - 2008.08.20 12:41:00 - [27] I would suppose there is a second consideration in this subject. all of the previous posts has been about a single target against another single target... most pve combat would be against several oponents, and here there would most likely be a small loss of time between lock on... in this interval it would be better to not have all guns available, but rather spread out over the full time of their recycle, so any time lost is only on a single weapon and not on all of them...
Maaxeru	Posted - 2008.08.20 13:02:00 - [28] Originally by: Arakidias Volley damage is important in PVE, especially with marauders, which, given enough skills and equipment, can one shot pretty much everything below battleships, excluding elite frigs/cruisers. It's much better to use one volley, with 8 second rate of fire to kill a target than two with a 6 second ROF. Because of that, a golem's killspeed is often limited to how fast you can change targets and the target painters cycle time. If you are playing EFT warrior with Officer fits . . . maybe. But I can put together even a T2 fitted Caracal with EHP of 29,808 against my weakest resist. Your alpha at best is, what, half of that? More likely, 1/3 to 1/4 of that. If you are using Torps, I sit 100k off and laugh (standoff - I'm not hitting you enough to take you down, you aren't hitting me at all). If you are using crusies, I'm warping off before your first or second volley hits. And, until the nano-nerf, there are even frigs that can speed tank you all day long. With the explosion velocity issues, even maybe after the speed-nerf. Golems are great ships. But not pawnmobiles. That is to say, unless you are fighting someone two weeks in-game. Also, most of this discussion is nice and neat, but how often do you get solo PvP? Usually its X ships on Y ship(s) . . . At that point, most of the nuance becomes academic as fleet X Field Commander calls primary on Fleet Y ship. Pop.
Jade Imp Caldari Adelaid-Sajic Solutions Inc. Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Maaxeru Edited by: Maaxeru on 20/08/2008 13:13:53 Originally by: Arakidias *Volley damage is important in PVE*, especially with marauders, which, given enough skills and equipment, can one shot pretty much everything below battleships, excluding elite frigs/cruisers. It's much better to use one volley, with 8 second rate of fire to kill a target than two with a 6 second ROF. Because of that, a golem's killspeed is often limited to how fast you can change targets and the target painters cycle time. If you are playing EFT warrior with Officer fits . . . maybe. But I can put together even a T2 fitted Caracal with EHP of 29,808 against my weakest resist. Your alpha at best is, what, half of that? More likely, 1/3 to 1/4 of that. If you are using Torps, I get to 100k off and laugh. A standoff: I'm not hitting you hard enough to wear you down, you aren't hitting me at all. All while I call in friends to pop the Maurader. If you are using crusies, I'm warping off before your first or second volley hits. And, until the nano-nerf, nano'd T1 frigs can speed tank you all day long. With the explosion velocity issues, even maybe after the speed-nerf. Golems are great ships. But not pawnmobiles. That is to say, unless you are fighting someone two weeks in-game. Also, unless you spend your time trying to gank new guys and exhumers/haulers, how often do you get solo PvP? And to take a Maurader out on that one isn't the brightest move: If he is smart, he's fleeted and when you attack, his buddies jump into field and that 750m+ Isk ship is going bye bye. Usually its X ships on Y ship(s) . . . At that point, most of the nuance becomes academic as Fleet X Field Commander calls primary on Fleet Y ship. Pop. mahap you should read that part first... it appears as if he is talking about PvE, not PvP.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.20 15:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Unbound I would suppose there is a second consideration in this subject. all of the previous posts has been about a single target against another single target... most pve combat would be against several oponents, and here there would most likely be a small loss of time between lock on... in this interval it would be better to not have all guns available, but rather spread out over the full time of their recycle, so any time lost is only on a single weapon and not on all of them... I hope you've trained targeting to more than 1 or 2, and your FC calls primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. In lag free fights I have not typically found it a problem to be locked onto the primary and secondary. I have found it to be a problem to get my guns to cycle in time to pop the secondary. No, there's a reason that I said that it can be shown for 1, N, and N+1 that high alpha low DPS/HP ships don't work in today's Eve. -Liang

Axexut Caldari PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:36:00 - [31] Edited by: Axexut on 20/08/2008 17:37:05 Originally by: Jade Imp mahap you should read that part first... it appears as if he is talking about PvE, not PvP. Oops: Kinda flew right over that. Thanks Jade and apologies to Arakidias. Yes - for PvE Golems are the be all and end all. Unless you have a CNR (ducks )
Baron Primus	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:51:00 - [32] Why has this thread concerning a newby question grown to 2 full pages of replies? SAGE SAGE SAGE SAGE


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