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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.20 09:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 09:36:47
I was thinking of People that(like me) stick to a race and some ships over a very long time and maxing her Skills in her Race. Since many people get advantages by crosstraining and using Support Skills(like Rapid Firing for example) on diffrent Weapon Systems they can respec fast.
I for my self would like to see a greater Benefit if you are realy stick to one style of Weapon/Ships etc. Getting the extra 2% for a Month of Training on Large T2 Blasters(also plane to get the Med to 5 once some more general Support Skills are done) is preaty cool, but I think there should be a bit more for people that actualy gooing for High End performance for a very limited selection of Ships and are not realy into flying Capitals.
So my Idea was a aditional Skill, that requires all Blaster Specs(S,M,L ofc also for other short range Turrets to) to 5 that adds 1% Damage and 1% Tracking per Skill Level to the T2 Blaster Turrets. Spec on the Long Range Turrets could be 1% Damage and 1% Optimal per Skill Level. Not realy shure about the rank, but 10-12 would be aceptalbe. So we are speeking of 5% more Damage and 5% more Tracking/Range for about 3-4 Months of Training for people that like a specilaized Ship/Weaponsystem and prefere a small selection of Ships with extrem Skills instead of a big selection with only average/good skills.
Given the big amount of time is needet to get them it¦s not about FOTM or a aditional Skill that is a must have for the common Player but about people that decidet to go for one kind of Race because it suits her Gameplay best and trying to take any small advantage over more general Skilled Players.
Ofc Missles should have a simlar Skill but im not realy shure about the needet Skills to get them because the Skill tree is more seperatend and not so step by step like the Gunnerys.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.20 10:36:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 10:36:27
I reckon pure munchkin satisfaction is all that this will achieve?
Introducing skills that will allow older players to get even more advantage over new ones in specific task is wrong. This is what creates unpeatable super-characters.
Eve can only diversify, not intensify. The more it intensifies, the closer it is to critical imbalance of population.
Edit: what I meant is "no". |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 11:30:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 10:36:27
I reckon pure munchkin satisfaction is all that this will achieve?
Introducing skills that will allow older players to get even more advantage over new ones in specific task is wrong. This is what creates unpeatable super-characters.
Eve can only diversify, not intensify. The more it intensifies, the closer it is to critical imbalance of population.
Edit: what I meant is "no".
Other people use this time to skill for a Capital(hotdroping anyone?) or swich over to the FOTM race(would be Amarr atm, could be Caldari after the Patch).
Many people are more for flying next to all ships than realy put her Skills on the Limit that are limited to only a few Ships(People called me mad for skilling up Large Blaster Spec to 5 while I can¦t even fly a Command Ship at 42 M SP).
Unbeatalbe super Char?
Its the same as the Learnings they only work in the very long run if you skill them up to 5. How many people are realy prepared to spend several months on a Advantage that is only usefull with on kind of Weapon on a very limited number of ships if they not also specilized with her other Skills to the same thing?
It¦s simply hands out a advantage for people that realy stick to one thing, over the people that prefere to be more flexible in general or the FOTM crowd.
Younger Player vs Older Player.
If you decide to stick to one thing, young players can allready catch up in a aceptalbe amout of time, this skillset also could prevent people from gooing the captial route(that is quite common the thing you aim for in 2 years) and get Skills to outdo older players be sticking with your thing on the sub capital Level.
Another 5% is not a must have(given the amount of time it takes) for anybody.
It is a extra Option, like people realy dooing Reacon 5 or CS 5 because they like the ships. The Basic Skills like Frig, Cruiser, BS or Weapon Skill unlock new many T2 Options so they are a must have to many people, but realy taking skill to the max that are not dooing this and only give limited specilized use is another route that is prefered by some people that want to overcome people that only do the basics and move up to the next thing.
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Noobie Noobsen
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.20 12:37:00 -
[4]
hm, what about something different than new skills for older players and something like a set bonus?
if you master all blaster specs, you are the blaster master a get another 2% - 5% tracking / rof (damage maybe not), everytime you use a blaster weapon (even t1). its a little bit like the diablo set system (we already have set bonuses in implants).
maybe to much, but speccing should be rewarded imo, for those who dont go for every fotm. maybe this could work in other aspecs too (if you use only true sanshas weapons and heatsinks you can get a little more performance, than a mix of true sansha, dark blood, ammatar modules. even a officer set bonus is imaginable)
maybe this was discussed and is already in the developement forums, but i only just got this idea...
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.20 12:57:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:06:21
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:06:03
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:05:38
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:03:18
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:02:33
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:01:48
OP, you didnt get my point.
Of course older char will always be more capable than new one, in general. That is a nature of every training system with near-infinite progression of character, like the one we have in EvE.
But the system should develop over time like this:
___............_______
| | | ------> | | | | | | |
| | | ------> | | | | | | |
not like this:
______ ______
| | | ------> | | |
| | | ------> | | |
............... | | |
............... | | |
............... | | |
With current system, new player can choose, as you say, an area of speciality, stick to it, and in reasonable time become as good in this speciality as any veteran. It is not that simple, I know, but it is generally so.
New player will still be in disadvantage because he has less choices, but at least he can be useful to otthers, and compete.
If you elongate those speciality threads, you will increase the time to reach perfection, which will even more suppress the new players.
Regarding the learning skills - Devs stated several times that it was a mistake to introduce those, especially advanced ones. For the same reason of increased seggregation of new players and vetyerans, and making start of the game less attractive.
No, you dont get even more damage for your blasters. Sorry, I totally understand your feeling, but no :) Get an expensive implant, or, much better choice, diversify. |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.20 13:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Noobie Noobsen
hm, what about something different than new skills for older players and something like a set bonus?
maybe this was discussed and is already in the developement forums, but i only just got this idea...
This was discussed, either on FanFest07 (check out the videos on eveTV, the one where all devs answer questions), or in one of devblogs. Devs mentioned the pirate implants? which use this mechanic, and said that they have this idea in their minds, just havent seen a sweet spot to implement it yet. |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.20 13:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 13:34:23
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 13:07:42
OP, you didnt get my point.
Of course older char will always be more capable than new one, in general. That is a nature of every training system with near-infinite progression of character, like the one we have in EvE.
But the system should develop over time like this:
___.............________
| | | ------> | | | | | | |
| | | ------> | | | | | | |
not like this:
___.............________
| | | ------> | | |
| | | ------> | | |
................. | | |
................. | | |
................. | | |
With current system, new player can choose, as you say, an area of speciality, stick to it, and in reasonable time become as good in this speciality as any veteran. It is not that simple, I know, but it is generally so.
New player will still be in disadvantage because he has less choices, but at least he can be useful to otthers, and compete.
If you elongate those speciality threads, you will increase the time to reach perfection, which will even more suppress the new players.
Regarding the learning skills - Devs stated several times that it was a mistake to introduce those, especially advanced ones. For the same reason of increased seggregation of new players and vetyerans, and making start of the game less attractive.
No, you dont get even more damage for your blasters. Sorry, I totally understand your feeling, but no :) Get an expensive implant, or, much better choice, diversify.
Well it would look like this:
Speced Player:
|||......|||| <- fully speced, even a advantage over older chars that favour more varity
|||......|| <- good to halve semi speced
||| <- most of the other only basics, by deciding specing instead of varity
|||
General Player:
|||......||| <- common use
|||......||
|||......|| <- usefull some times but not the general field of the player
|||......|||
|||......|||
.. and so on for a very long list
Beginner:
|||......|| <- field of Skills to get close to older chars
|||
||
or
||| <- poor choice because you can be outdown even by yunger chars that spec
|||
|||
I personaly don¦t think Learnings are wrong, because they give a choice. The only wrong thing is telling all people that you have to do them in the start, and peole lissen more to advices of others than on her own common sense. I got the advanced Perception Skill here at 5, rest of the advanced at 4, because it¦s my most used field of use. People should stop to thing they need them all in general, only the L5 on the advaneced Skills are realy a pain.
It¦s not intedet as a general choice, if you can use multiply races you can pick the best Ship for the job, this 5% won¦t be atractive if you use all Ships at some point. If you can decide to bring a Torp Raven to small Scale PVP event with tacklers it is the better choice even without this 5%. It is atractive for some people that wish to stick to one race and trade specilization against varity. Again this should be not a must have(since the time to train is long and the gain is small) but another choice.
PS.: I allready use the Implants, as most of the specilized People do, this is the basic key to overcome and limit you in the ship selection even more because you will void most of the Boni if you use other ships, not matching your Implants. |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:16:00 -
[8]
i have to say i would rather have diversity than ubermaxed characters. I can see the appeal though :) |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: The Djego on 20/08/2008 14:38:09
Originally by: Viqtoria
i have to say i would rather have diversity than ubermaxed characters. I can see the appeal though :)
Well this is your decision, and not a bad one, you can fill more roles, you won¦t get hited by a hard nerf bat and you can Work with allmost everything. Realy it sucks in 0.0 if you have no Hybrid Turret in the hangar and start mouninting AKs and flying Stabbers(well was kind of a funny change but not my general style  ).
I can use all Minmatar T1 and also the Weapons since i started here, but decided at some point that i want to go Gallente for the more agressive Gamgeplay. I fly my Rifer and Fleetstabber to from time to time for fun, they are not bad ships but I personaly like the up to close Gallente style more from the gameplay point of view.
It¦s not intendet to be a must have or a fare better choice against skilling up another race, Capitals or specilized T2 Ships. It¦s another Option for players that don¦t need or don¦t want to fly everthing but using the things they have mutch and want a bit more performance in this special area, mostly focused on small scale and solo PVP where every 1% conuts in a close fight. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.20 16:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Viqtoria
i have to say i would rather have diversity than ubermaxed characters. I can see the appeal though :)
Ain't it the diversity where you can choose to be a jack-of-all-trades or master-of-one? OPs suggestion allows for it.
Would also diversify older chars, i.e. masters of lasers OR blasters OR ACs instead of I-have-all-base-skill-at-V which we have currently
I, personally, am all for OPs suggestion, buuut my POV is probably just as biased as OP's one in that I'd love some more ways to specialise instead of having to spread out. Currently there's no choice of this kind. |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.08.20 18:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Edit2: About missiles, it would be logical to have similar skills for Unguided missiles(rockets, HAMs, torps) which gives 1% dmg/2% explosion velocity per lvl and another one for Guided missiles(standards, heavy, cruise) which gives 1% dmg/2% velocity per lvl. Should be inline with gunnery this way if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah sounds fine for me.
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.22 15:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: The Djego
greater Benefit if you are realy stick to one style of Weapon/Ships
No, for the reasons repeated above.
When RL pals ask 'Anypoint to start Eve now, its been out 4 years?', I really want to be able to tell "Doesn't matter, you can reach any veteran in your field of choice in a year", and then tell more about diversity idea..
So yes, would love to be able to spec more into blaster field, but realises whats better for the game itself.
-Lasse
who thinks his 'Capital Hybrid Turret lv5' was a good call..
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
Burning Steel Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:06:00 -
[13]
This whould just make older chars more imba and whats the point of that? They already have the most gametime off all, if they havent already figured out how to outwit ppl in similar ships with similar skills but less game time and experience you need too learn how not just have those extra skills that allow you to pwn thru a 3-5% more dps.
I.e. in short i consider this not necessary and directly negative for PvP.
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Jim Pansen2
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.25 09:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jim Pansen2 on 25/08/2008 09:30:34
Well most older people simply go for FOTM or have a very good selection of Ships that would work in the fight better so they can chose, by the advantage of her Skill points in the support Skill respecing is fast. Younger players will allways have a drawback here, having to pick one out of many.
How many people realy have Weapon Specs at 5? For most people it is not worth in, because they fly many ships and this Skills only affect a small selection of Ships in the end. It¦s only a small advantage, usable in Solo/small Gang, in bigger fights, this small advantage won¦t realy change anything at all.
Ships on high Skills levels are very good balaced(including Fitting) for many common solo/small Gang engagements(even the so underpowert Pest is quite a capable oponend in the right hands). Picking on a less skilled oponend is not a big deal if you know what you are dooing most of the time, this idea is more geared to max Skills vs max Skills(or the common Spec 4, Ship 5 basics most of the people have). To make a slight diffrence for people that allready using Implants and Faction gear to stand out in this fights.
I realy can¦t see something wrong with a skills that bind people to her ships, instead of simply switching to other ships. It is not designed to bash younger players or a must have for all the older players.
Pros:
- prevents people from fast respecing/skill all/beeing jack of all trades
- gives people that love one playstyle a new option
- bounds people stronger to her ships/one type of playstyle if they want to use it
- actualy seperates the speced Damage Dealer from "I bring a Damage ship"
Cons:
- would only benefit older players(well it only makes a diffrence against a older player realy)
- only good in solo/small Gang(a playstyle that needs a boost for shure)
- massive time sink(you have to give up something else usefull)
- bad option if you fear the Nerfbat or fly something that works to good atm
---
Alt of The Djego, currently on a long therm Skill. |
The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 11:55:00 -
[15]
Small bump, mostly interested on more opinions at this topic.
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
Burning Steel Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:08:00 -
[16]
My opinion is: More skills will damage this game. We already have a hefty learning curve i will generally be against any kind off adding of skills to this games unless its for:
1.New ship class and its skill reqs.
2.New feature and its skill reqs.
Otherwise i whould be all for scratching alot of skills.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.07 13:43:00 -
[17]
I too am against new skills, unless they involve something completely new (be it an ability or a new ship)
Boink! |
Mordekai Bloodwake
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.08 23:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 20/08/2008 10:36:27
I reckon pure munchkin satisfaction is all that this will achieve?
Introducing skills that will allow older players to get even more advantage over new ones in specific task is wrong. This is what creates unpeatable super-characters.
Eve can only diversify, not intensify. The more it intensifies, the closer it is to critical imbalance of population.
Edit: what I meant is "no".
Nicely said! |
Arcadrell
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 06:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: ElCoCo
I too am against new skills, unless they involve something completely new (be it an ability or a new ship)
please... a skill that allows more ammo, and faster reload of your ammo!
(think of the minmatars artilierys!)
I could see them implimenting a skill that, gave a small X dmg type added to your weaponry thingy.
like, say this skill (kin version) added +1 Kin dmg to your ammo base damages (+5 at level5) that could help people without good weapons to do a small bit of Kin damage, so they would have it easier doing missions places where theyd need it.
hint, hybrids and lazers are kinda stuck with 2 damage types.
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The Djego
Minmatar
merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:49:00 -
[20]
All I ask is for 5% more damage and Tracking for people that are realy into solo and one kind of ships. It doesn¦t matter in a big fight and it doesn¦t matter against a younger players.
Where does a 6 Month Training for a slight advance count more against a lower skilled player or a higher? It¦s all about to take on overwhelming odds solo or very good skilled pilotes for people that realy go for maximum perfomance(and a bit over this if they can with Booster, Imps and Faction Items).
It is not a must have. It is a option. 
----
Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus
Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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