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LaVista Vista
   |
Posted - 2008.08.21 05:52:00 -
[1]
On SHC we had a discussion about the infamous CSM mailing list, which has been requested to be made completely public. I won't argue again why I don't think it should be made public, but I would like to discuss how we can streamline it in order to MAKE it(At least it's roles) public.
Right now, the CSM uses the mailing list for mainly(In order):
1. Exchanging submission templates
2. Discussing the next agenda
3. Any CCP communication at any time.
4. General chat(VERY little actually)
These things could be become transparent by CCP giving us the tools to do so. And it won't just benefit transparency, but also effectivity.
In order to streamline the submission templates, a wiki, as previously requested, is VERY much needed. It will promote collaboration inside the CSM, transparency and discussion. It's a win-win situation.
A CSM-only forum is also dearly needed. Due to the nature of the assembly hall, it does by no means promote discussion, due to the massive amounts of "Support threads", in which any attempt at discussion drowns. While that could(And SHOULD!!!!) be addressed by allowing people to vote without posting.
But allowing for CSM to discuss in an asynchronous manner would promote more discussion around key issues being raised. Arithron HAS repeatedly pointed out that there is a lack of communication on issues. And rightfully so. Right now, most discussion happen during the actual meetings, which is a bad use of time in many aspects. If all discussion happen during the week, trough a forum(Mailing list is bad for that), it would possibly allow the CSM to actually work together on getting certain issues, which otherwise gets voted down now due to their weakness, would get trough.
This has to be addressed somehow. So to sum up:
1. A wikipedia(Read-only for the public) should be available for the council in order increase the collaboration.
2. A CSM-only forum should be available in order to promote discussion inside the CSM.
3. It should be possible to support a topic in the assembly hall without having to post in the thread. |
LaVista Vista
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 05:52:00 -
[2]
On SHC we had a discussion about the infamous CSM mailing list, which has been requested to be made completely public. I won't argue again why I don't think it should be made public, but I would like to discuss how we can streamline it in order to MAKE it(At least it's roles) public.
Right now, the CSM uses the mailing list for mainly(In order):
1. Exchanging submission templates
2. Discussing the next agenda
3. Any CCP communication at any time.
4. General chat(VERY little actually)
These things could be become transparent by CCP giving us the tools to do so. And it won't just benefit transparency, but also effectivity.
In order to streamline the submission templates, a wiki, as previously requested, is VERY much needed. It will promote collaboration inside the CSM, transparency and discussion. It's a win-win situation.
A CSM-only forum is also dearly needed. Due to the nature of the assembly hall, it does by no means promote discussion, due to the massive amounts of "Support threads", in which any attempt at discussion drowns. While that could(And SHOULD!!!!) be addressed by allowing people to vote without posting.
But allowing for CSM to discuss in an asynchronous manner would promote more discussion around key issues being raised. Arithron HAS repeatedly pointed out that there is a lack of communication on issues. And rightfully so. Right now, most discussion happen during the actual meetings, which is a bad use of time in many aspects. If all discussion happen during the week, trough a forum(Mailing list is bad for that), it would possibly allow the CSM to actually work together on getting certain issues, which otherwise gets voted down now due to their weakness, would get trough.
This has to be addressed somehow. So to sum up:
1. A wikipedia(Read-only for the public) should be available for the council in order increase the collaboration.
2. A CSM-only forum should be available in order to promote discussion inside the CSM.
3. It should be possible to support a topic in the assembly hall without having to post in the thread. |
Dierdra Vaal
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:26:00 -
[3]
I agree. And we brought this up in iceland and we're still waiting on it -_- |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.21 15:43:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
I agree. And we brought this up in iceland and we're still waiting on it -_-
Exactly. But a bit of lobbying doesnt hurt, eh?  |
Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 18:57:00 -
[5]
Quote:
A CSM-only forum is also dearly needed. Due to the nature of the assembly hall, it does by no means promote discussion, due to the massive amounts of "Support threads", in which any attempt at discussion drowns. While that could(And SHOULD!!!!) be addressed by allowing people to vote without posting.
Actually, you already have such a facility- the Jita park speakers forum. Exactly what it was intended for- you present your ideas/issues, just like everyone else (afterall, just because you are on the CSM doesn't mean you have to present all the ideas, or that your ideas are any good), they are discussed, you interact with players and come to a consensus and a sensible issue to post in the Assembly hall. After 7 days, if the required amount of support (or if a CSM member supports it), it goes to a CSM meeting.
What happens at the moment is that most ideas/issues bypass the Jita forum entirely, so it's little wonder that a thread has supports in it all the time!
What is really needed is not a forum limited to CSm or the like (as these are just tools that can be ignored as mailing lists etc), but a weekly issue discussion meeting by the CSM- not a voting meeting, but a discussion and brainstorm on the popular issues from the assembly hall forum. Not to much to ask really....
Take care,
Arithron
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Arithron
Quote:
A CSM-only forum is also dearly needed. Due to the nature of the assembly hall, it does by no means promote discussion, due to the massive amounts of "Support threads", in which any attempt at discussion drowns. While that could(And SHOULD!!!!) be addressed by allowing people to vote without posting.
Actually, you already have such a facility- the Jita park speakers forum. Exactly what it was intended for- you present your ideas/issues, just like everyone else (afterall, just because you are on the CSM doesn't mean you have to present all the ideas, or that your ideas are any good), they are discussed, you interact with players and come to a consensus and a sensible issue to post in the Assembly hall. After 7 days, if the required amount of support (or if a CSM member supports it), it goes to a CSM meeting.
Well, I see your point. But the problem is that very few actually read this forum, leave alone posting here. A formal forum for it would be much better I think.
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:27:00 -
[7]
Very few read it? CSM members or players?
If very few read it now, its probably due to the fact that issues and ideas are all put on Assembly hall.
I fail to see how your arguement holds up- no one reads a forum designed to discuss ideas and issues, but we need a forum to discuss ideas and issues...
Take care,
Arithron
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Arithron
Very few read it? CSM members or players?
If very few read it now, its probably due to the fact that issues and ideas are all put on Assembly hall.
I fail to see how your arguement holds up- no one reads a forum designed to discuss ideas and issues, but we need a forum to discuss ideas and issues...
My point is, as I stated, that there needs to be a formal forum for it. Be it the jita speakers corner or forum y, there just needs to be created awareness around it anyways.
But you also miss the point that it should be CSM-only, which the CSM has already requested.
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 19:51:00 -
[9]
Actually, I disagree that it should be CSM only.
The CSM currently ignore the forums, and the mailing lists, and the in-game channel for discussion purposes. Having another forum will just show how bad the communication really is...
I disagree entirely that you need a CSM forum only due to the fact that you have been elected to LISTEN, INTERACT and DISCUSS issues with PLAYERS. The issues being raised in CSM meetings should be player issues ( as a player you may have a good idea or two). It should not be a personal soapbox and vehicle to bring forward issues that directly benefit a CSM member.
There has been a preponderance of issues of late from certain CSM members. Most show a poor understanding of the wider game, and even at times a poor understanding of the area they will affect. This 'thinking' by certain CSM members that their ideas are somehow 'better' than other ideas has to stop. Personally I'd change CSM member issue raising;, I'd like to see only issues that have been collaborated on by numerous CSM members (or checked by) allowed to be posted as issues. I'd keep the ability of players to post ISSUES as it stands.
Take care,
Arithron
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Arithron
I disagree entirely that you need a CSM forum only due to the fact that you have been elected to LISTEN, INTERACT and DISCUSS issues with PLAYERS. The issues being raised in CSM meetings should be player issues ( as a player you may have a good idea or two). It should not be a personal soapbox and vehicle to bring forward issues that directly benefit a CSM member.
Well, you didn't get the point obviously.
Right now, we use the meetings to ask questions and discuss with the person who is raising the issue. By giving an area for the CSM to take these discussions in a thread which everybody can read, but only CSM reply, it will facilitate discussion much better in my eyes.
There IS an issue with the assembly hall as it is now, because there is so much spam due to the whole "support" thing.
Quote:
There has been a preponderance of issues of late from certain CSM members. Most show a poor understanding of the wider game, and even at times a poor understanding of the area they will affect.
Well, that's just a cheap shot. But ok.
Quote:
This 'thinking' by certain CSM members that their ideas are somehow 'better' than other ideas has to stop. Personally I'd change CSM member issue raising;, I'd like to see only issues that have been collaborated on by numerous CSM members (or checked by) allowed to be posted as issues. I'd keep the ability of players to post ISSUES as it stands.
Why? CSM members are part of the community too.
It wouldn't change a thing. People would just work around that whole thing. Sorry to say. I understand where you are coming from, but the world is not perfect. Lets not work against the the council and it's productivity, just to try and make it like the world is perfect.
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:36:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Arithron on 21/08/2008 20:39:15
I agree with you that the Assembly hall makes it hard to follow a discussion- hence why I stated earlier these discussions need to happen in the forum already in existance (Jita park speakers forum).
I also agree that the discussion needs to happen earlier- I just can not see how providing a forum for the CSM only will encourage them to discuss issues! Most don't use the tools available already (blaming these for the ills and using them as justification for not discussing is poor form, IMO. Some use them, successfully (eg, Dierdra and her BH/Merc thread, you and the T1 loot thread etc).
Poor issues posted by some CSM members is a cheap shot? Its a fact. The evidence is there for all to see. Ill-thought through, they reach the meetings and are promptly voted down; not because there is a conspiracy to reject issues presented by X, but because the issue is a non-issue or a poor one.
By making CSM members discuss issues before posting, you get, at least, a better chance of a decent issue/identified issue. It also shows that the CSM is putting some effort into issue discussion, apart from in voting meetings.
Personally, I'd like to see weekly discussion meetings, where issues are selected from forums for further discussion, these are discussed by the CSM with input from a variety of viewpoints, CSM members are then tasked with development of an issue in the Jita park forum, and finally the issue is presented in the Assembly hall for the 7 day period (then voted on etc).
Take care,
Arithron
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.08.22 02:03:00 -
[12]
A stopgap thought comes to mind - get CCP to bring back Proclamations. Use it as your forum - even if you get a bit of player chatter, it shouldn't interfere with your public-but-closed-discussion-forum functionality. Also, it'd let all the meeting results threads go somewhere instead of cluttering the Assembly Hall.
------------------
Fix the forums! |
Rasha Tar
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.22 14:06:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rasha Tar on 22/08/2008 14:09:11
Edited by: Rasha Tar on 22/08/2008 14:07:22
Edited by: Rasha Tar on 22/08/2008 14:07:00
Not being funny or anything, but if I look at this forum and see which threads are on the first page by you they are
1) Streamlining the council for better communication with CCP
2) Redefining the Chairman position
3) What should change in the CSM?
4) Increasing transparency by streamlining communication.
I can't remember seeing any of these issues in assembly hall so they appear to be personal issues raised by you rather than the general eve populace. The only one that seemed to get any measure of support was the 3rd one (what should change in the CSM), everything else seems to be about adding an extra layer of unecessary buracracy in an attempt to justify your position.
Even the thread which had the most responses/support (the "what should change in the CSM" thread) was mostly about reducing timewastage by having the meeting as a voting meeting, with the discussions/proposals taking place BEFORE the actual meeting take place (and that anyone asking for an explanation of the proposals is a complete failure of a CSM for not doing their homework beforehand).
I'm not sure what your campaign promise was, but at the moment it looks like your spending all your efforts on issues that are personal to you (and which have little to no effect on the general eve populace as they aren't on the CSM) and mostly seem to involve changing how/what the CSM is responsible for, rather than anything actually relevent to everyone else.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.22 14:21:00 -
[14]
Quote:
I can't remember seeing any of these issues in assembly hall so they appear to be personal issues raised by you rather than the general eve populace.
Well, I don't think you quite understand exactly what the purpose of those threads are.
It's merely discussion threads. And I'm hardly spending all my efforts on it. Since they are not in the assembly hall(Which is by design), I do not wish to raise them for the CSM. You can call it fuss or whatever. But it's all just thoughts of mine(Though often based on community feedback), which I thought might be interesting to discuss. IF there was broad support and consensus, it might be raised to the assembly hall. But that is a long way off.
Quote:
I'm not sure what your campaign promise was, but at the moment it looks like your spending all your efforts on issues that are personal to you (and which have little to no effect on the general eve populace as they aren't on the CSM) and mostly seem to involve changing how/what the CSM is responsible for, rather than anything actually relevent to everyone else.
I have stood for the industry. And I have raised a ton of issues about that as well as other topics which has nothing to do with industry, but was a great concern for the players. I'm even working on more issues which I hope to get raised for our third meeting with CCP(I have been busy over the last month, so haven't had too much time to write up issues). It's fairly likely that I will have a bunch of issues written up for our meeting in a bit over a week from now. I have a handful that just needs polishing.
You will also see if you head over to the market discussion forum and have a look trough the forum, we have had extensive discussion about issues which has been raised by the CSM as well as discussing the result of it.
Right now, one of the major things that the CSM need to do, is to "shape" the role of the council and decrease player apathy. Nobody else has taken on this task. So it is of course my intention with those posts, to try and gather feedback and get discussion on how to "shape" the council to the better. And I have gained tons of good feedback on it.
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.22 16:03:00 -
[15]
Call me a cynic, but anyone can put issues onto the Assembly hall or come up with ideas (good or bad).
Can you tell us how many SUCCESSFULLY escalated isues you have managed so far?
Additionally, it might be helpful to list them as issues/ideas of your own, and those on behalf of others (ie, adopted from Assembly hall)
Take care,
Arithron
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.22 16:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Arithron
Call me a cynic, but anyone can put issues onto the Assembly hall or come up with ideas (good or bad).
Can you tell us how many SUCCESSFULLY escalated isues you have managed so far?
Additionally, it might be helpful to list them as issues/ideas of your own, and those on behalf of others (ie, adopted from Assembly hall)
Take care,
Arithron
I have raised 12 issues, some of which weren't posted by me in the assembly hall forum. Every single one of them were successfully escalated.
But what does that have to do with ANYTHING? Do you want to compare e-peens or what? Seems fairly damn silly to me.
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.22 21:18:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Arithron on 22/08/2008 21:22:46
I like specifics....things like 'I have raised tons..' makes me nervous ;)
Don't get me wrong, you actually discuss things in the forums and are doing what you said you would be. My concern with communication and the CSM is not that the right tools aren't there, but that CSM members wouldn't use them even if they were there. Hence why I'd like to see a weekly issue meeting in addition to the Voting meetings, so that discussion of current issues could occur and refinement of issues to be presented could occur.
Take care,
Arithron
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.22 21:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arithron
I like specifics....things like 'I have raised tons..' makes me nervous ;)
Fair 'nuff 
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sembur
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
If all discussion happen during the week, trough a forum(Mailing list is bad for that)
What? Why is a mailing list bad for discussion? That strains credulity on the surface and you are a bright guy so I don't understand what I am missing here.
thx.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.24 18:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: sembur
Originally by: LaVista Vista
If all discussion happen during the week, trough a forum(Mailing list is bad for that)
What? Why is a mailing list bad for discussion? That strains credulity on the surface and you are a bright guy so I don't understand what I am missing here.
thx.
The problem is that a mailing list is hard to keep track of. The ability to quote and things like that is kinda hard.
It's also easier for the public to keep track of discussion of a mailing list. The community is already used to reading the forum we have right here. We gotta bring the discussion right to the community, imo!
Does that make sense? 
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.24 19:44:00 -
[21]
Quote:
It's also easier for the public to keep track of discussion of a mailing list. The community is already used to reading the forum we have right here.
Didn't you mean to say that it's much harder for the public to keep track of discussion via a mailing list?
Communication and discussion with players is of paramount importance for the CSM. I'll be seeking alternate ways to engage the playerbase if I get onto the CSM. One idea would be an listed in-game channel that shows in all regions etc called CSM discussion or somesuch. CSM members can thus interact with players and answer questions etc. Of course, it will hinge on CSM members using the channel, rather than closing the channel as happens now with the CSM one (I often see CSM logged or logging in, but not in channel).
Take care,
Arithron
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.24 20:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Arithron
Quote:
It's also easier for the public to keep track of discussion of a mailing list. The community is already used to reading the forum we have right here.
Didn't you mean to say that it's much harder for the public to keep track of discussion via a mailing list?
Communication and discussion with players is of paramount importance for the CSM. I'll be seeking alternate ways to engage the playerbase if I get onto the CSM. One idea would be an listed in-game channel that shows in all regions etc called CSM discussion or somesuch. CSM members can thus interact with players and answer questions etc. Of course, it will hinge on CSM members using the channel, rather than closing the channel as happens now with the CSM one (I often see CSM logged or logging in, but not in channel).
Take care,
Arithron
Sorry, yes. That was a slip on my. It was supposed to say "... Of a forum". |
sembur
|
Posted - 2008.10.27 18:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: sembur
Why is a mailing list bad for discussion?
The problem is that a mailing list is hard to keep track of. The ability to quote and things like that is kinda hard.
It's also easier for the public to keep track of discussion of a forum. The community is already used to reading the forum we have right here. We gotta bring the discussion right to the community, imo!
Does that make sense?
I can't agree with you, but I see where you are coming from.
Thanks. |
Issler Dainze
Minmatar
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2008.11.02 02:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Issler Dainze on 02/11/2008 02:35:30
A mailing lisis the wrong tool for the problem. I think a combination of public and private forums is the minimum solution. While I personally am fine with anyone reading my comments on a particular CSM topic I know that some people will not participate in a candid manor in full public view. I think a Wiki to use to track issues formally identified by the CSM for action would be bonus.
"Let me be your voice when you scream in space!"
Issler
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.02 10:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Issler Dainze
I think a Wiki to use to track issues formally identified by the CSM for action would be bonus.
Guess who's already setting that up...
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NEW MOVIE! CSM Campaign Thread |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.11.02 10:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Guess who's already setting that up...
¿
Not CCP 
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.02 10:43:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 02/11/2008 10:47:15
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Guess who's already setting that up...
¿
Not CCP
You're right.
This is that document I sent to them by the way...
download
From what I understood yesterday, either they didn't read it or it didn't stick. We got our CSM forum though but that came too late to be of much use. Certainly something we should make good agreements on for next term.
---
NEW MOVIE! CSM Campaign Thread |
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