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David Forge
Forge Enterprises
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
BOND NUMBER 5 I CHOOSE YOU! Same terms and amount as my previous bond but with that new bond smell.
TERMS
Total Bond Size: 3 Billion ISK Rate: 8 percent Bonds: 100 million ISK each (no min/max purchase) Collateral: None Audit: No Start Date: March 25, 2012 End Date: March 31, 2012
PLAN
Basically the same as always, just run of the mill station trading. I have, however, begun utilizing the Bulk Trade Mailing List more and more often when I happen to see something put up for sale in Jita. Some items have fairly good spread between the already below Jita market price and the going rate in Amarr which is where I do the bulk of my trading. Plus, it's not that long of a trip and it's nice to get out of station occasionally and stretch my...ummm...legs?
RISK
I might steal it. Here's my previous bonds where I didn't steal it. If that doesn't make you feel better have a few drinks and once your're properly loosened up just send me your ISK.
Bond #1 Foxfire Bond #2 Flameburst Bond #3 Thunderbolt Bond #4 Mjolnir
QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS
As always, feel free to contact me here or ingame with any questions, comments, concerns, words of inspiration, or scandalous pictures.
INVESTORS
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Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
33
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Send me your full api and I'll cover this if it checks out ok |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
92
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
As a rule I tend not to share my API. If the bond doesn't fill otherwise I might but so far it's all been fine without having to take that step. |

Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
33
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 16:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
No worries - I respect your privacy. I will withdraw the offer though if you don't mind as I will put the isk into something else. Best of luck  |

Ariana DeSoto
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 17:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
**** it, I'll do 1B.
EDIT: I suck at typing. |

Magnu Stormhawk
The Gentlemen's Club of EVE
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 17:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
A 6 day bond or a typo?
Edit: I see your other bonds were also short, so probably not a typo. Seems to me you are paying a high rate for a short term, unless you are pro-rating the interest. Why so short? If you can get unsecured bonds filled then you can probably get them filled for 8% per month, not 8% for 6 days, and make much more use of the ISK before you have to give it back. |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
93
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Liberty Eternal wrote:No worries - I respect your privacy. I will withdraw the offer though if you don't mind as I will put the isk into something else. Best of luck 
No worries. I'm appreciative of the interest.
Ariana DeSoto wrote:**** it, I'll do 1B.
EDIT: I suck at typing.
Spot reserved, transfer the ISK at your convenience. Happy to have you.
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:A 6 day bond or a typo?
Edit: I see your other bonds were also short, so probably not a typo. Seems to me you are paying a high rate for a short term, unless you are pro-rating the interest. Why so short? If you can get unsecured bonds filled then you can probably get them filled for 8% per month, not 8% for 6 days, and make much more use of the ISK before you have to give it back.
My original bond was at 10% (to compensate for newness) and then I brought it down to 9% on number three (I think) and then 8% on this one and the previous one. I've got to be honest that I don't have a very good feel for this yet. If this is too high a return over too short a period I would love to readjust it in future offerings. Is 8% a month more typical? |

Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:A 6 day bond or a typo?
Edit: I see your other bonds were also short, so probably not a typo. Seems to me you are paying a high rate for a short term, unless you are pro-rating the interest. Why so short? If you can get unsecured bonds filled then you can probably get them filled for 8% per month, not 8% for 6 days, and make much more use of the ISK before you have to give it back.
A suspicious mind might wonder whether the idea of being able to say 'Look! I have done 5 trouble free bonds!' without flagging up the fact that one had, in fact, only been involved in the investment market for 5 weeks might not be rather attractive to someone with nefarious goals. It provides a low effort way to build a 'history' of trustworthiness. In addition, the same suspicious mind might wonder whether very rapidly turning over bonds might allow someone to get away with increasing their bond size much more quickly than would be possible with the traditional 4-8 week length bonds. Further, if that suspicious mind went to sleep and another one came along our second suspicious mind might note that the branding of the bonds by reference to missile names appears to have been determined from the start, possibly suggesting that the bond issuer has always had the fixed intention of running a series of rapidly growing bonds. These possibilities might be thought all the more likely by a third suspicious mind who took into account the uneconomical interest rates being used to sell the bonds. |

Ariana DeSoto
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote:Magnu Stormhawk wrote:A 6 day bond or a typo?
Edit: I see your other bonds were also short, so probably not a typo. Seems to me you are paying a high rate for a short term, unless you are pro-rating the interest. Why so short? If you can get unsecured bonds filled then you can probably get them filled for 8% per month, not 8% for 6 days, and make much more use of the ISK before you have to give it back. A suspicious mind might wonder whether the idea of being able to say 'Look! I have done 5 trouble free bonds!' without flagging up the fact that one had, in fact, only been involved in the investment market for 5 weeks might not be rather attractive to someone with nefarious goals. It provides a low effort way to build a 'history' of trustworthiness. In addition, the same suspicious mind might wonder whether very rapidly turning over bonds might allow someone to get away with increasing their bond size much more quickly than would be possible with the traditional 4-8 week length bonds. Further, if that suspicious mind went to sleep and another one came along our second suspicious mind might note that the branding of the bonds by reference to missile names appears to have been determined from the start, possibly suggesting that the bond issuer has always had the fixed intention of running a series of rapidly growing bonds. These possibilities might be thought all the more likely by a third suspicious mind who took into account the uneconomical interest rates being used to sell the bonds.
When I read this it sounded like Jack Sparrow's voice in my head. Please excuse while I change my undies, I wet myself from laughing. 
EDIT: I still suck at typing. |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
93
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote:A suspicious mind might wonder whether the idea of being able to say 'Look! I have done 5 trouble free bonds!' without flagging up the fact that one had, in fact, only been involved in the investment market for 5 weeks might not be rather attractive to someone with nefarious goals. It provides a low effort way to build a 'history' of trustworthiness. In addition, the same suspicious mind might wonder whether very rapidly turning over bonds might allow someone to get away with increasing their bond size much more quickly than would be possible with the traditional 4-8 week length bonds. Further, if that suspicious mind went to sleep and another one came along our second suspicious mind might note that the branding of the bonds by reference to missile names appears to have been determined from the start, possibly suggesting that the bond issuer has always had the fixed intention of running a series of rapidly growing bonds. These possibilities might be thought all the more likely by a third suspicious mind who took into account the uneconomical interest rates being used to sell the bonds.
Even taking into account that my honor was being called into question the whole time, I did enjoy that. Honestly, it had not occurred to me that I was doing something that out of the ordinary. I thought my interest rate was approaching the level of being rather modest though I did sometimes think I was running these too short. I've found that one to two weeks, depending on activity and market conditions, has afforded me the opportunity to make sufficient profit to repay investors and to earn myself a little extra on the side.
If you look at the history I've been running these just shy of four months so if my intent was to quickly turn them over to build reputation I've been doing a very poor job. In the end all I can really do is give my word (a thing of marginal value in New Eden) that my intent is not malicious. I would really very much appreciate any input on refining my future offers to be more in line with the standard interest rates/time frames. |

Ariana DeSoto
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
ISK sent. Have fun. |

Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 19:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
David Forge wrote:Even taking into account that my honor was being called into question the whole time, I did enjoy that.  Please don't think I was implying anything untoward myself. Purely exploring hypotheticals. 
Quote: Honestly, it had not occurred to me that I was doing something that out of the ordinary. I thought my interest rate was approaching the level of being rather modest though I did sometimes think I was running these too short. I've found that one to two weeks, depending on activity and market conditions, has afforded me the opportunity to make sufficient profit to repay investors and to earn myself a little extra on the side.
If you look at the history I've been running these just shy of four months so if my intent was to quickly turn them over to build reputation I've been doing a very poor job. In the end all I can really do is give my word (a thing of marginal value in New Eden) that my intent is not malicious. I would really very much appreciate any input on refining my future offers to be more in line with the standard interest rates/time frames.
If I were still investing I would currently be rather suspicious of you for the reasons mentioned. This does not at all mean I think you're a scammer, though, as sometimes completely legit people can fit that kind of profile by accident. So, all I can really tell you is what would make me less suspicious in the future. First, slow the bonds down. If you are going to pay 8% then keep hold of the cash for at least a month. Personally, I like to see investment prospects grow their public exposure very, very slowly and always showing a demonstrable need each time as this at least provides for a pattern of behaviour that is unattractive to most scammers (and some borrowers, but I'm talking from the perspective of a lender). If you do insist on continuing with short bonds then don't pay more than market value for the isk - that always looks suspicious. Giving someone your api so they can check that you do actually trade and don't just sit on the cash for each bond and then spend an hour once a week grinding MD would also be a good idea in my book, especially given certain previous behaviour patterns that may have looked suspicious.
My two isklets. |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
93
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 20:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks so much. This probably seems obvious to people who have been in the bond/loan game for awhile but it's immensely helpful to someone like me. It doesn't hurt that it also means it might be feasible for me to be borrowing over longer periods at the same rate. In my next offering I will be taking all of this into account. I tend to only offer a bond about once a month anyway so doing one over the course of a month would be much more orderly and profitable then my current practice. I don't want to give the impression of false gratitude but I really do appreciate this being brought up, I would have continued on like this for sometime probably before I realized myself that I could operate more efficiently. |

Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 22:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote:A suspicious mind might wonder whether the idea of being able to say 'Look! I have done 5 trouble free bonds!' without flagging up the fact that one had, in fact, only been involved in the investment market for 5 weeks might not be rather attractive to someone with nefarious goals. It provides a low effort way to build a 'history' of trustworthiness. In addition, the same suspicious mind might wonder whether very rapidly turning over bonds might allow someone to get away with increasing their bond size much more quickly than would be possible with the traditional 4-8 week length bonds. Further, if that suspicious mind went to sleep and another one came along our second suspicious mind might note that the branding of the bonds by reference to missile names appears to have been determined from the start, possibly suggesting that the bond issuer has always had the fixed intention of running a series of rapidly growing bonds. These possibilities might be thought all the more likely by a third suspicious mind who took into account the uneconomical interest rates being used to sell the bonds.
I could not agree more with you. Moreover, it was extremely well articulated.
Instead of just repeating what you said, I would like to offer a possible explanation for why David thought to offer his bonds this way. At the lower amounts of 3 billion, it is relatively easy to make a 25% return in a week. So even quoting a 10% weekly interest rate offers you a nice 15% profit. Without really looking around to see if what you are doing is the standard, it might be easy to just start operating this way, because you are in fact making a good profit.
That said, Kara is completely right. Offering your bonds on a monthly basis at 5% - 10% is standard. Giving investors around 10% for a week is extraordinarily nice of you, but it is actually overly gracious, perhaps suspiciously so. Investors love 10% a month on a safe investment when they would not have done anything with the money anyway. You should take advantage of that and try to milk as much return on the ISK as you can during the time (i.e. a month) while you are borrowing it. Andarius Trading Corp. |

Jonas Xiamon
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 22:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
1 Billion Isk sent. I usally write one of these and then change it a month later when I reread it and decide it sounds stupid. |

Mocktar Olachenko
Black Star Incorporated
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 22:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Assuming the 2.1 Bil that has been pledged in this thread is all you have, I will cover the remaining 900 million. |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
94
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 22:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jake Andarius wrote: I could not agree more with you. Moreover, it was extremely well articulated.
Instead of just repeating what you said, I would like to offer a possible explanation for why David thought to offer his bonds this way. At the lower amounts of 3 billion, it is relatively easy to make a 25% return in a week. So even quoting a 10% weekly interest rate offers you a nice 15% profit. Without really looking around to see if what you are doing is the standard, it might be easy to just start operating this way, because you are in fact making a good profit.
That said, Kara is completely right. Offering your bonds on a monthly basis at 5% - 10% is standard. Giving investors around 10% for a week is extraordinarily nice of you, but it is actually overly gracious, perhaps suspiciously so. Investors love 10% a month on a safe investment when they would not have done anything with the money anyway. You should take advantage of that and try to milk as much return on the ISK as you can during the time (i.e. a month) while you are borrowing it.
As I said, I'll be reviewing my terms. I might settle into something with a longer time period and perhaps a slightly adjusted interest rate. At least while I am dealing in small amount of ISK and can maintain my current margins that sort of change would result in more profits for me while still providing an attractive offer to investors.
Jonas Xiamon wrote:1 Billion Isk sent.
Great to have you back!
Mocktar Olachenko wrote:Assuming the 2.1 Bil that has been pledged in this thread is all you have, I will cover the remaining 900 million.
Excellent. |

Mocktar Olachenko
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 23:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
900 mil sent  |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 16:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Happy Saturday! (for those of you who are wise enough to live in reasonable timezones)
The payment of the principle and interest has just been made and I'd like to thank everyone for investing. As was spoken about above, I'll be rethinking the terms of future bonds and will almost certainly increase the amount of time over which they take place. If a month is the going rate it was madness for me to offer them at similar interest rates for only one to two weeks. Madness I tell you.
I don't know exactly when the next bond will occur. There are a few important dates coming up (not the least of which is my birthday next Saturday ) as well as school related stuff that I need to be getting on with, it is the end half of my last semester as an undergrad plus I'm getting ready to start grad school too so you can imagine I might be pressed for free time. Rest assured it will eventually happen. Probably. |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 16:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Was waiting for your "Trauma" bond, but then CCP reverted the names  Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

David Forge
Forge Enterprises
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 16:46:00 -
[21] - Quote

I do hate them for that. |

Ariana DeSoto
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 16:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Confirminating of up thrusting ISK for timely wallet throbbing.
Thanks David. Nice doing business with you. |

Mocktar Olachenko
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 00:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Also confirming principal and interest payment. Good doing business with you! |
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