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Why we need a SIGNIFICANT nerf on lvl4s in hisec.

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Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.22 21:35:00 - [1] Originally by: Victor Forge Edited by: Victor Forge on 22/08/2008 21:32:18 Originally by: Victor Forge Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So we had the industrial undercurrent, who needed protection and was willing to pay for it. Who did they pay? Well, not every combat player is by default a pirate, and not every pirate is a griefer. Some just want combat, because they enjoy it! Anyhow, a couple mil in their pockets (garnered from corp taxes, btw), and they were happy to keep hostiles out of the zone. They were still gate camping, they were still getting a quick kill, but they were paid to do it. Win-win for them, and it also kept our 'competitors' from our belts. Add to that, mining in hisec (unless it was the rare ice belt), was unprofitable as hell, so the industry guys had to go out if they wanted to make money in their profession. Well, nerf High-sec and make it a grinding game like Lineage II, and you will in a way get back to that time, population size that is. Players are not going to low-sec not because they are being blown up every time they do, but they are blown up often enough. Same thing with pirates "not every pirate is a griefer". That is true, but again, enough of them are griefers that make players distrust every pirate they don¦t know. Not to mention that there are pirates you can¦t talk to at all, since they don¦t understand English. I dunno how it was back then, but the lack of trust now when it comes to players you don¦t know in EvE is probably lower than in any other mmorpg. But High-sec PvErs don¦t have that problem, they can stay in a small corp whith few people they really can trust, or remain in the NPC corps. Or they can be PvEers in big 0.0 corps with good reputation. Shockingly enough EvE can be good social game for those players. It is just sad that pirates that demands a few targets more in low-sec want High sec PvE players to quit EvE, because they can¦t respect that there are players that likes the game even without doing PvP. Why are you arguing with yourself? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:19:00 - [2] Originally by: oilio Originally by: Feilamya By his understanding of a sandbox, WoW would be a sandbox too. Nope, I do understand about sandbox. WoW is much less of a sandbox because players are basically funnelled along a very limited number of set paths. On a WoW PvE server, PvP combat is completely optional. You are GUARANTEED not to get in a fight unless you specifically want to. This is not true in Eve, and I hope it never will be, but that's NOTHING to do with L4 mission running. Nerfing High Sec L4 missions will NOT force more people into PvP. The only thing it will achieve is a reduction in the number of subscribers. EvE is a sandbox because a player can take almost ANY path. This includes AVOIDING combat, if the player so chooses. The player isn't guaranteed to be able to avoid combat, of course, but they can play in such a style as to avoid it as much as possible. What you guys REALLY want is for mission runners to be forced into situations - FORCED - into situations where they can be preyed upon by so-called "PvP" players. You don't want to see low sec buffed, because players would have the OPTION of chasing higher rewards for greater risk. You want to see high sec nerfed, so that players have the choice of either becoming pirate fodder in order to make an income (wouldn't work), or quit, or have a much reduced income. So much for sandbox. If you're not dedicated to combat, then you'll get nowhere... but Eve isn't ALL about combat. That's Counter-Strike or Unreal Tournament. Eve is about trading, mining, mission running, industry, piracy, territorial wars, extortion, exploration... Many people want to stay in empire and do their thing there. WHY THE HELL NOT? You're pretty clueless. If your playstyle is avoiding combat, good on you. That does not mean is should be easy or profitable. If you want to avoid combat and still be profitable, you should have to do it in an area where combat is a real possibility. There's no sport in avoiding combat in an area where you can't engage in combat except for a few exceptions. So basically, you haven't understood the meaning of 'sandbox'. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:27:00 - [3] Originally by: oilio Originally by: Ki An So basically, you haven't understood the meaning of 'sandbox'. and now we get to the fundamental issue. To Ki'An (and fellows) sandbox=combat I wish CCP would state their position on this. It might differ from yours. Read my post again. You can play this game and avoid combat. That does not mean that it should be easy for you to both avoid combat and make loads of isk at the same time. Avoiding combat becomes a valid playstyle when combat is a threat. It's not in high sec. If you say "suicide gankers" now I'm going to personally pod you. Basically, sandbox means you can do whatever you want. It does NOT mean you can do whatever you want in safety. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 18:40:00 - [4] Originally by: oilio No, suicide ganks don't really count for much once the CONCORD change is implemented. Maybe kick older players from NPC corps into militia or something - maybe the risk needs looking at in high sec, but the risk/reward balance in low sec just won't work as things stand. Too much risk for a mission runner. It WILL be a turkey shoot. Mission runners WILL lose more ships than they can afford to replace from running missions, and (in my opinion) many of them will simply quit. Exactly, which is why I and others are lobbying for a boost to low sec to complement the nerf to high sec. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:52:00 - [5] Originally by: Sumiya Tanaka Originally by: Ki An You're pretty clueless. If your playstyle is avoiding combat, good on you. That does not mean is should be easy or profitable. If you want to avoid combat and still be profitable, you should have to do it in an area where combat is a real possibility. There's no sport in avoiding combat in an area where you can't engage in combat except for a few exceptions. And finally the mask comes off. This is the agenda driving this whole fever pitch whine campaign that you are a core part of, Ki. Even other more reasonable types like Malcanis are now openly calling into question the "PVE mindset". Well, there we are. This is NOT about risks and rewards, folks. This is a debate about the proper nature of the game of EVE Online. It is deep, biiter, intractable philosophical divergence between those who see this as a fundamentally PvP game, on the one hand, and those who see it as a game that should well accomodate both playstyles in ways that are equally rewarding, even when the non-PvP playstyle really is a non-PvP playstyle. So let's finally heave off all of this nonsense about objectivity. This debate isn't about what would be "objectively good for the game". It's a philosophical debate, an old one actually, between the two groups outlined above, and level 4 missions are only the most recent stalking horse for this broader agenda. Waaaaat? How did you manage to read all that into my post? Post with your main so I can wardec you for stupidity. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 20:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Keiretsu Destroyer Me thinks they only post theese kind of stuff to find potential carebear victims for war decs. Well, feast your eyes on my alt, you filthy forum-whining pirate No, seriously. You don't have to like other people's play style - that's why you have your own way of doing things. And look at your post, my friend. You are not complaining because of what you can get from playing this game, you are whining about what other people have and how they play their game. That's selfish! Wrong, dear alt. I've already stated multiple times that I run level 4 missions for a living. That fact is easily verifiable by taking a look at the standings tab of my well known alt. I know you don't want to do this as it would effectively shoot your whole theory of "those gosh-darn pirates are only looking for targets" right into the water. Still, in the interest of keeping the debate on the issues instead of resorting to personal attacks on people's playstyles, I offer this information again. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:06:00 - [7] Originally by: AB 2006 Originally by: Keiretsu Destroyer Me thinks they only post theese kind of stuff to find potential carebear victims for war decs. Well, feast your eyes on my alt, you filthy forum-whining pirate No, seriously. You don't have to like other people's play style - that's why you have your own way of doing things. And look at your post, my friend. You are not complaining because of what you can get from playing this game, you are whining about what other people have and how they play their game. That's selfish! Indeed. He seems blind to it as well. Oh well. There really isn't any such thing as objectivity in life anyway, it's all an illusion. Jeez, why don't you post with another alt supporting yourself? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:10:00 - [8] Originally by: AB 2006 *laughs at you. Oh, ice burn. You're really breaking my heart. If you want to tear it apart, post the same thing again with another alt. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:14:00 - [9] Originally by: AB 2006 Originally by: Ki An Originally by: AB 2006 laughs at you. Oh, ice burn. You're really breaking my heart. If you want to tear it apart, post the same thing again with another alt. laughs at you some more, since you seem to enjoy it so much. You're not good at this, are you? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:19:00 - [10] Originally by: AB 2006 Seems to be working just as planned, actually. Is your plan to get my post count up? You puppet master you...

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik Hold your horses, you know I was joking about war decs - that's why 's and 's are there. If I wasn't joking, I wouldn't be posting with my main now. My point is: just try to have some fun with the game. There are many ways to have fun in eve and the great part is that you can play eve based on your own personalty and (hidden) desires. I myself want to work in the shadow to earn enough experience, find enough frieds and lastly earn enough isk to be an alliance leader with hundreds of people watching by back as I fly my Erebus But hay, that's just me. You have to ask yourself what do you want from this game and what would best reflect your real-life personality and desires and then play by that. Only then will you have a great deal of fun. Cheers. I am playing the game the way I like it. Well, to a certain extent. I would like to be able to move my money making characters to low sec and make more isk there than I make risk free in high sec. This is why I'm in this debate. I want proper risk vs reward. That would make the game more fun for me. Let's call it my ulterior motive, even though it's shooting my current money maker in the foot.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.23 21:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Keiretsu Destroyer Ok then... great! You know what you want, now think of the way how to achieve it. My idea would be to join forces with some of your friends (and make some new ones) and head out to the 0.0. It's much safer and profitable to move your moneymaking there when you have friends beside you. Then you can play a role of a real diplomat aranging a safe pocket of space where no big aliance would attack you, and if you are a normal hard working employee in some real life corp (well, at least 90% of people here are) you don't have much opportunity to do politics actively. You'll find that it's a new experience and that it is fun. Well, since I've played a lot longer than you it might not surprise you that I've already lived in 0.0. Quite a bit actually. What you're telling me to do here is basically exactly what I have been lobbying against. You're telling me to forget low sec, because I should go to 0.0. That's what we're trying to fix here. Glad you noticed. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.27 19:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Qob Hey, if we are talking about Risk vs Reward, I suggest we nerf the Traders. They are totally safe, snug in their hangers. They make millions and only risk a percent or two in brokers fees. We should be able to steal stuff from the market. Break into other people's hangers!. The hacking skill should let us get a chance to scam the market! Trading is PvP. Anyone wanna count how many times people have posted exactly what I quoted above and had it answered? I bet it's more than 10 times. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.27 22:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Vibor What is the risk for a PVP configured ship, engaging this CNR in low sec? The biggest risk I see, is someone else coming along to ninja the wreck... That the CNR pilot isn't a complete idiot and doesn't fly around in low sec like he would in high sec. That the guy has friends warping in to help him. That he's fitted a warp jammer to keep the pirate in place until help arrives (it IS possible to remove a Dread Gurista Invulnerability Field and instead fit a Warp Disruptior I without gimping a CNR). In short, the risk for the pirate is as great as the risk for the CNR, if not greater. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.27 23:45:00 - [15] Edited by: Ki An on 27/08/2008 23:46:27 Originally by: Vibor Well she would be a complete idiot if she set up her CNR for PVP, while mindlessly squashing swarms of PVE roaches. It is long and boring enough to begin with, so why make it more so? One WD FTW? Hope the pirate is slower than the PVE spec'd CNR... Great, now she had better have friends logged on while grinding... But I can see how one WD and the mere though of her friends showing up, will strike fear into the heart of any PVP spec'd pirate. Your problem seems to be either being too stupid to live in low sec or just unwilling to see how a mission runner can protect himself in low sec and put any pirate in risk. I've given you a couple of options. All you have done is to dismiss them because they won't mean you're 100% risk free, or that you will beat a pirate 100% of the time. Try to imagine actually running level 4 missions in something else than a CNR. Let's say shock a T1 Raven fitted with double shock T1/T2 mods. It's cheap but still very effective. Sure, you can't do the missions AFK, but then again, Eve shouldn't be played AFK. It won't take you much longer to complete a mission, and your isk/hour won't be much affected. I know. I run missions in that kind of fit. If you're not interested in actually participating in the discussion (and your dismissive attitude tells me you're not), please STFU and stay out of the thread. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Vibor O I C ...so the smart thing to do is gimp the PVE setup and make it even longer and more boring to grind, or gimp the PVP setup by only installing a WD. And, never, ever, grind without friends at your beck and call... Sounds to me like that CNR is now spec'd as neither fish nor fowl... Suppose she was smart enough to look at a ship as merely a tool. One uses a PVE spec'd ship to grind the ISK, in the most efficient way. The other toon uses the ISK to PVP, in a ship optimized and spec'd for that roll... You are saying she should create some hybrid, which will be sub-nominal for either PVE or PVP. And what is the reason for this? Oh yes, so the PVP pirates in low sec have a more friendly, target rich environment. All couched under the guise of the ôRisk vs Rewardö mantra. Yeah, I'm smart enough to see how this game is played... No, obviously you don't C. You've just repeated yourself, spewing the same idiotic comments. Do you believe that I am telling mission runners to go to low sec and run their missions, and while they're there, to act exactly as they would in high sec? No, stupid people throughout these threads have been trying to make that argument, but it is what is called a 'strawman'. Now, since you don't understand this discussion, please stay out of it. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Solomon XI Blasphemy. Band of Brothers has one. Engage Enemy In Conventional Battle Hotdrop 200-capital-ships WIN Or... Engage Enemy In Uneven Battle Cyno Titans DD WIN Don't lie. PS: Titans should be removed from the game -- or at least the Doomsday. Carriers/Dreads should be high-sec capable. Titans/Mothers should remain low-sec. Make capitals 100x more expensive to build. You seem a bit bitter towards BoB. Why don't you take that bitterness to CAOD where it belongs? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Silver Night If they made all level 4 missions drone missions maybe it would help too. 1) It would screw over macro miners 2) It would be self adjusting, because the higher the supply of minerals, the cheaper the minerals would be 3) You could still grind the LP for that full Caldari Navy fit on your CNR, but if you wanted to sell it, it would probably be a lot less isk, because isk would become more valuable in relation to items. 4) It would require a modification to the insurance system, because as it stands of course insurance is what determines the prices of ships and minerals. 5) It would entice people to low sec, where there is ISK to be made. The problem is that it would completely screw over regular miners. Mining is enough of a ghetto-profession as it is. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:47:00 - [19] Originally by: knobber Jobbler You are forcing your play style and ignoring the dire impact of lowering the reward of level 4's on the entire EVE economy. Nobody is forcing any play style on you. We are just trying to limit the benefits that one particular playstyle has over every other playstyle. Lowering the rewards for lvl 4's will only be beneficial to the EvE economy. Originally by: knobber Jobbler You clearly live in 0.0 space and have forgotten what its like to start out in EVE. I personally would like to move to 0.0 (as would the 2 others in our corp) but I need cash and to get cash I need to run Lvl4's to get it. 0.0 is like the old boys club of EVE and if your a small corp of 3 players and a couple of alts unless you have piles to of cash to pay your way into 0.0 or allot of time to dedicate towards making contacts in 0.0 and spending the greater part of your spare time in 0.0 its damned hard to break into. No, this is not a case of 0.0 players wanting to punish high sec players. I am a high sec player too, and I want it nerfed. No, you don't need a lot of cash to go to 0.0. You should be going to 0.0 to make a lot of cash. That's what's wrong with the system today. You don't have to endure greater risk in order to get greater rewards. No, you can't pay your way into 0.0 with a 3 man corp. You should be joining either an established 0.0 corp or a bigger corp looking to go to 0.0. Or you should recruit. Originally by: knobber Jobbler The answer to the problem here is not nerfing lvl4's in anyway but increase the rewards of 0.0 and increase the rewards of faction warfare which is the introduction to PVP allot of newer players are getting. 0.0 needs to be easier to get into, the rewards more immediate for players with not allot of play time. If you increase the rewards of 0.0 you mess up the system even more than it is today. Low sec becomes even more left behind. No, high sec needs to be nerfed. It's the only way. Factional warfare should NOT give any rewards. It's weekend pvp, and pvp for fun. Fun is the reward. For monetary rewards, you need to risk more than a T1 destroyer. Rewards should NEVER EVER be immediate, and players who don't have a lot of play time should accept the fact that they won't see the great rewards. THIS IS NOT WOW! Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Joxxy Edited by: Joxxy on 28/08/2008 11:49:39 Well - some people simply enjoy high sec and are scared of low sec / 0.0 slag fest. Thats their choice. They enjoy PVE missions in pimped out ships worth billions they will never loose. So they make money in a decent manner - so what. Who cares. I do PVP in 0.0, mine / rat in 0.0 under a wing of alliance. That is something I enjoy. On the other hand Marko doesnt like that. He likes to undock and do some mission for LPs and ISK + some loot. In the end we are close in ISK per hour. But I am risking my ship and POD. But that is my choice. That and fact that faction/officer spawn will tip the scale in my favor by a large margin. But that doesnt concern Marko. He enjoys his thing and maybe buys my officer loot. Because if it wasnt for mission runners like him only people to buy 1+ bil mods would be super cap pilots .... I care because what Marko does directly affects me and my game. This has been explained over and over again. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Dzajic And for the umpteenth time. Running missions is boring, and annoying. Extremely boring and extremely repetitive, who cares if we have hundreds of missions already when they are all the same. Not a valid argument. 1) A lot of people have claimed that they want to do missions because they are fun. 2) Just because something is percieved to be boring does not mean we can accept an imbalance. Originally by: Dzajic Doing missions in a turret battleship with just T2 mods wont get you anywhere near 25 mill/hour/account. And you have far chances of dying than people earning 30mill/h. Domis can do better, but there is a number of missions where launching drones is literal suicide. Sentry Domis cant be used for every mission. Ratting in 0.0 in a suboptimal fit will also lower your isk/h. What was your point again? Originally by: Dzajic Only ones doing enough cash to break EVE economy are people with faction fit CNRs, comandships and Marauders. Most often they will dualbox or even use more than 2 accounts because for them ISK earning in billion ISK ships is the endgame of EVE. Erroneous. I run level 4 missions in a T1/T2 fit Raven and make the kind of cash that we're talking about here. Originally by: Dzajic If you nerf Caldari mission grinding capability you solve a lot of L4 issues. Buff the ships for PVP (oh wait, that will happen already when nanonerf hits TQ) nerf their rat eating capabilities. No, Caldari is already good enough at PvP. Originally by: Dzajic Make agent quality dynamic based on agent usage and load. No more abuse of crazy Caldary systems with 2 or 3 Q>+10 agents in a o.5 or o.6 system surrounded by high sec. Yes, this is one change that is needed. Originally by: Dzajic And, I know personal experience is irrelevant but... I was doing L4s for a somewhat bad agent in 0.7 system (as all good agents have 300+ people in system and lag like hell, just to add, with such lag, even CNRs and Golems die). Friend was ratting Guristas in 0.0 in a comedy fit Pest, docking and SSing when hostiles enter system. Day after day he earned way way more than me per hour, even though he had very bad luck in getting faction spawns those couple of days. Then I suppose your friend was either extremely lucky or he's simply a much better player than you. Either way, it has no bearing on the discussion. Originally by: Dzajic Yes, having maxed out social skill, working for a Q18 or 19 agent with another account salvaging behind you will be close or top best ratting income, but that implies either using a low sec agent, or being in a stupidly overcrowded mission hub. Being in an overcrowded mission hub does not seem to faze many mission runners. How do I know? Because of the existance of overcrowded mission hubs. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Karii Ildarian How many true empire mission runners would simply start mining full-time, if the income potential from running hi-sec L4's is nerfed? I don't know. Do you know? Would it be bad if many did this? I don't think it would. I think it would be perfect for the game. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Ogul Apart from envious whining I have yet to hear a single good reason why making the grind even harder would be good for the game. Then you haven't read the threads, or you simply don't want to hear those arguments. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Zo5o ITT: NERD RAGE over suicide nerf. Drunk Driver already beat you to that particular kind of trolling. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.29 18:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette No, that's just one aspect of the problem. Wouldn't you agree that there is a serious problem somewhere if 80% of the population stay in 25% of the space? My first guess would be that 75% of space must really suck balls. Guess again. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.29 21:36:00 - [26] DC, if I had your way with words I'd have a new woman every night. As it is, I don't, so I'm gonna continue posting on an internet spaceships forum. Pretty awesome post, btw. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:47:00 - [27] It needs to go beyond 1000 posts. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.31 18:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Strom Kryos Edited by: Strom Kryos on 31/08/2008 17:23:37 That is absolute truth, at which point something would need to be done to balance it if changes are made. Thats not really nerfing missions, its a total revamp of the whole idea of missions. Agents would need to be created and spread across all of empire to balance it and each agent assigns x ammount of missions.. but then your run into .. what about the players who get online late at night.. so then you have to go as far as assign x ammount of missions per hour.. and if the next agent thats available is 20 jumps aways well that makes the game perfect for anyone that wants to play that aspect. Then theres the rper that has perfect standings with each agent and corp of the whole faction who logs in and cant get a mission to run. As the idea that missions should somehow be in a competitve state.. which also means you would need to increase the value as your increaseing the work it would take to even get a mission. Then your faced if you want it changed you run into as big of an issue as trying to fix lag in blob warfare. I think a whole new thread should be created with a discussion headed in the right direction and get rid of all the posts that have no basis towards the actual issue. All that's needed is sliding scale agent quality. All agents start with a 0 quality. Agents that are used drop in quality, bottoming out at -20. Agents that aren't used increase in quality, eventually reaching +20. This would quite rapidly lead to all agents in high sec reaching quality -20, while unused low sec and 0.0 agents will be at quality +20. The effect of this: Some people will accept running missions for a subpar agent. Some people will move on to other things. Some people will migrate to unsafe space and run much more profitable missions there. We are then much closer to a clear difference in profitability between low sec and high sec. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.01 08:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Shagrath Neptune You obviously don't or haven't done missions. Agent quality is a pretty minor detail really. LPs aren't worth what they used to be and the mission pay is laughable when compared to bounties. People already run for subpar agents. i used to run for a less than optimal agent because he happended to be in a station which included a repair shop, Refinery and Manufacturing all in the same spot. Not having to move stuff around and having everything under one roof > a few extra LPs and a bit more isk per mission. I would say lvl 4's already had their nerf when they put in LP stores and the value of a LP went down significantly. I have done a lot of missions. I know what I'm talking about. I get 9k isk per LP, so for me, LPs have increased in value (used to get around 1k per LP). That the quality difference isn't all that great is 1: Wrong, as easily demonstrated by the fact that most people opt to cluster together to run as high quality agents as possible, and 2: Easily fixed by increasing the difference between different quality agents.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis Is he seriously trying to argue that the LP store was a mission income nerf? Yes, and it's not just him. I have as much problem believing it as you, but I've just come to accept that some people can't count.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Gamesguy You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items. Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market. Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'. 2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:08:00 - [32] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Gamesguy You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items. Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market. Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'. 2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running. IIRC the high isk/LP offers take a ******ed number of tags, tags that are quite expensive on the market... That is somewhat true. They don't take that many, and I have already counted for my own expenses when I arrive at the 9k isk/lp.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.01 14:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Strom Kryos Lp store didnt nerf anything. It caused all the big ticket item to flood the market.. hence getting the navy bs and making 700 mil isk for months of endless lvl4 missions, now your lucky if you can sc**** 100 mil off it. Thats where others are complaining about it being nerfed. I feel its only a matter of time before everything on the lp store is completely flooded. I think the lp store should.. dare I say ROTATE stock month to month taking the items that have been accepted the most and making them unavailable for a month. That could be an idea. However, as I said, since the lp store was introduced I have been making a lot more isk/lp than before.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Ki An 2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running. Please do tell how you reach those 9k isk/lp. No. Figure it out for yourself.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Exlegion I'm sure Le Skunk, DigitalCommunist, Ki An, Gamesguy, et al find your posts insightful and clever. You guys represent all that is intelligent, meaningful, and rightous on these forums. On behalf of the stupid idiotic majority of Eve and the Eve-O, I'd like to thank you for gracing us with your unquestioned wisdom and light of truth. CCP would be lost without you five whoring the forums spewing your hate towards the carebear community. I'm glad you've finally come to your senses, Exlegion. Have a nice life (in Empire) and stay away from these threads in the future. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Cruel Crow TBH This thread getting old So, start a new one. More exposure is good. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Drunk Driver Well, that got boring fast. Let's go back to a question you dodged earlier. I'd be curious to see if you dodge it again. When did this passion for nerfing level 4 missions hit you? Was it after or before CCP released their notes for the security changes in empire? So, how much do you charge for 100mil? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Judge Ment 400million will get you 2month GTC I'd rather buy from Drunk Driver. He's a forum celebrity and I trust him more than CCP. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Drunk Driver Isk seller........ That's the best you fan boys can do? I'm still waiting for that price quote. Also, please refrain from pressing enter so many times after typing your post. Parkinson's can be hell, but at least try. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Drunk Driver Boring........ Try again. . No I'm having fun. Need that price quote. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]Petition me as an isk seller. Go ahead. Please.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]And this IS a pirate revenge thread. My guess is I'll find you've also geared up your forum rants AFTER the empire security changes were posted.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Good idea. Think I will petition you and see if the GMs find anything. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Exlegion Le Skunk, Let me talk to you in a way you can better understand, because obviously intelligently isn't one way. You're a babbling idiot. You want to find out how many times I've lost ships look it up yourself! I don't care whether my losses appear on killboards or not. To be honest, I don't keep track. I'm not a killboard ***** either. Sue me. Suffice it to say I lost my last ship in Tamo a couple of weeks ago helping some local pirates fight off another pirate gang. Yes, I know. A little weird, but I figured it'd be fun and in the end work to my interest in the long run. Can't remember the pirate corp, but Borasu is in it. Look it up and ask them if you feel so inclined to do so. You know, some of us don't have to lie to make a point. Unfortunately, you make a habit out of it and it's just such a waste of your time and mine. Why aren't you helping your alliance fight for your space? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]That means nothing.[linebreak][linebreak]You could have multiple accounts with multiple characters. No one would know except you and CCP.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Good point. Better make sure the GMs look at all of your accounts. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Exlegion I switch characters between low and 0.0 sec. During PVP ops I'm around TVN (not with Exlegion) although lately, and since TVN was sieged by Tri I've moved my character to Y0. When the Hydra gang numbers are low I switch to Exlegion to mission in low sec. Mind you, during this time corp tax was set to 100%. So even with Exlegion I'm still helping for the war cause. Any other question you'd like to distract from the topic? Yes. Why are you running missions in high sec? Wouldn't you make a lot more isk if you just ratted behind the lines in 0.0? I mean, that's what you've been saying all along in the "nerf lvl4" threads. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Ki An on 02/09/2008 17:56:28 Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: Ki An Yes. Why are you running missions in high sec? Wouldn't you make a lot more isk if you just ratted behind the lines in 0.0? I mean, that's what you've been saying all along in the "nerf lvl4" threads. Tamo isn't high sec. And yes, I do rat in 0.0 with my other character. but I happen to enjoy missions as well. Sorry 'bout that. Low sec. However, is that really worth your time? I hear that pirates probe you out 100% of the time there. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:01:00 - [46] Originally by: Exlegion Again, I LIKE MISSIONING. And yes, I get probed out, but if I see probes on my scanner I dock and switch to a different character or just log out for the night. Is this to your liking? Do you approve of what I do? Am I doing it wrong? No no, you're not doing anything wrong. I'm just amazed how someone is actually able to survive in low sec, what with everyone saying "going to low sec is instant death" and "pirates always find you and kill you if you run missions there". Glad you have found a way to avoid that. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Ruze Wait, people go to losec for missions?!?! I thought losec was for PvP? I KNOW, RIGHT? Amazing. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]PIRATE REVENGE THREAD CONTINUES......[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Still waiting on that quote.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]Here you go...[linebreak][linebreak]"[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Nono, the price quote. How much are you charging for 100mil isk?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:22:00 - [50] Edited by: Ki An on 02/09/2008 19:22:52 Originally by: Judge Ment Last words: Kill the Carebears, Kill the game It's that simple (IS THAT BALANCE ENOUGH FOR YOU) You vastly overexaggerate your importance. Fact is, Eve would manage without the likes of you. It would not manage without the likes of me. I know it's a tough thing to accept, but you aren't really important for the game. Your money, however, seem to be more important to CCP than my money. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:47:00 - [51] Originally by: Judge Ment Maybe I over exaggerated a little! But could you imagine a world without someone to shoot? BTW I Don't know if ISK = Valid Dollar Exchange There are always people to shoot. It's not like pirates don't shoot other pirates. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:48:00 - [52] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]Hmmmmm....[linebreak][linebreak]Are you seriously trying to buy isk for cash?[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak](Trap is set...)[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. No, I'm trying to find out if illegaly purchased isk is cheaper than isk through GTCs. As you know the answer, could you tell me, please? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 21:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Ria Lobo I currently PvP with my main. If I screw up I will run level 4's with my alt to replace my ship. This is my punishment for failing. Lvl4 are however boring and I would love it if there was more of an option for making money in a mixed PvE/PvP environment. Low sec ratting would be fun if the income would offset losing a t2 fitted ship once in a while. At this point it does not even come close. Nerfing high sec LvL 4 at this point will just make me spend more time pressing f1-f8 and may have me quit the game because I get too bored or have me only fly inty instead of recon/hac in PvP because of the cost involved. Yes CCP, don't balance your game or this guy will quit.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 22:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]I don't know the answer. I neither buy nor sell isk.[linebreak][linebreak]However it's certainly informative to know that you pursue such things.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak].[linebreak][linebreak] Come on, sure you do. Just tell me how much you're charging for 100mil isk. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 22:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]Angry much?[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. I could never be angry with you, my little isk seller. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 22:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Malcanis Did he mail you a quote? What's his price for 2 bill? He hasn't come around to that yet. Guess he's busy now with the servers just coming up and all. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 22:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Pithecanthropus That player should be free to choose whether or not he wants to defend himself, or simply play the way he enjoys. PvE is not a cower, its another option, and if you don't like it... find a PvPer to take your frustration out on. Chances are you'll enjoy the challenge for once... and you might learn a thing or two about true pvping. You are arguing as if Eve where a game with consensual PvP. That didn't use to be the case. It's moving in that direction because of players like you. That's why we don't like you.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 22:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Haakelen I can't wait until some carebear space game shithole comes out, so mongoloids like that guy can get the ** out and stop **ing up Eve. Rgr that
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 23:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Pithecanthropus If you calling ganking a hauler in high sec pvp with your 10 Domi's then please find another game, cuz you've just insulted every pvper in Eve... and every pvper in ALL MMORPGs. But, I guess you are free to do what you want... even if it's the lamest form of any playstyle in this game. But perhaps you are good at 'lame'. I think the door is over there... please leave. Since you don't understand what 'PvP' means, perhaps you should stop talking about it? Just a thought. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 23:14:00 - [60] Originally by: Pithecanthropus You'll be waiting a long time... cuz I'm happy with how I play. You're the one whining about what other's do in some other space. Focus on yourself for once, maybe you'll feel better. He's right, to be honest. What we need to hope for is another good PvP game. If one of those comes out CCP won't be able to take the PvPers for granted anymore. They will be forced to make "design decisions" that go our way every once in a while. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 23:15:00 - [61] Originally by: Pithecanthropus LOL... I just realized I know more than you. Did you? I'm sure you are well versed in picking flowers and singing songs. Doubt you're so savvy about other things. And you still don't know what PvP means. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 23:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]It pleases me to see the serious pirate/griefer crowd in such turmoil.[linebreak][linebreak]Yep, it pleases me.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Yes, passive aggressive, Parkinson's afflicted isk sellers like yourself don't really have much to be happy about. Guess you have to take what you can get, wouldn't you say? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 23:29:00 - [63] Originally by: Pithecanthropus waa-waa-waa... you're not getting all the design decisions? Try 'any'. Originally by: Pithecanthropus Perhaps if you pvp'ed vs pvp'ers for once, you'd know what pvp is and see that CCP has provided a lot of space and features for you. Get off your high horse and play the game. DONE. DONE? Made you feel big saying that, huh, you fracking pansy. CCP has provided lots of stuff for me. Now they're taking it all away to cater to whimps like you. I've pvp'd with all kinds of people including other pvpers. But you still don't know what PvP means.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 11:50:00 - [64] Originally by: Hurrum Hurrum lol. A casual PvPer such as yourself (60 kills in 10 months in) would probably be best playing 'Aero fighters'. Try it. Hmmm do I have 60 kills in the last 10 months? Wow, that's pretty good, considering I've been inactive for 6 of those months. I rarely manage to kill that many people as I find gate camping boring and like flying solo. Can I see your killboard stats to compare? I can't find Hurrum Hurrum anywhere on any killboard. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:02:00 - [65] Originally by: Call'Da Poleece A true whorum at work folks ... its got it all, conclusions well and truely jumped, insults and lack of any real data/information. And yes you wont find any kills for me because I am either an alt, or a main thats a cowardly miner. We all know what you will pick Look, another alt who is afraid of bringing consequences to his leet pvp main. The forum is crawling with them these days. All of them in favor of the security change, go figure. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Meriela You were inactive for 6 months? That's at least one major patch you missed out on then, yet you know everything about the game and how it should be as soon as you come back? Inactive doesn't mean I haven't stayed informed. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:29:00 - [67] Edited by: Ki An on 03/09/2008 13:30:18 Originally by: Meriela If you weren't actually playing, then all you had to go on was hearsay. What am I wrong about? And I'm not sure I would put dev-blogs in the 'hearsay' category. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 13:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Meriela Try reading all the counter posts, without a preconceived notion that what you say is right. No, I've read them. Be specific. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 15:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak]WHINY PIRATE REVENGE THREAD CONTINUES TO BORE US TO TEARS.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. Price quote, can I haz it? Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.03 15:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Drunk Driver [linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]Someone please sell Ki An some isk for real money so he can buy a clue.[linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak][linebreak]. No, I'm asking for your price. You sell isk. You give me a price quote. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting

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