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Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:47:00 -
[1]
Being somewhat of a fetishist for frigates it's always bothered me that the stealth bombers just aren't that useful in general combat except for novelty/comedy ops.
Current problems with the stealth bombers...
The ship:
- Slow and poor agility
Especially for a frigate making it very vulnerable to pretty much every weapon you can think of with no tank to speed of and no real ability to evade damage.
- Cannot warp cloaked
Any element of surprise is gone unless you're already in place before the targets are on grid.
- Tight fitting restrictions
This severely limits the fitting options for the frigate for no clear reason. Its slot count and role already restrict the uses of the bomber.
The weapons (cruise missiles):
- High alpha, low dps
With cruise missiles the bomber is only effective against soft targets it can kill in one volley. It doesn't have the survivability to hold down most tougher targets for multiple volleys or the dps the break any proper tank unless in groups - even in groups stealth bombers are still only really effective against much smaller slower groups. Other frigate type gangs can engage and disengage more effectively due to both higher dps and survivability.
The weapons (bombs):
- One launcher
Each bomber can only mount a single launcher that can hold two bombs. After both bombs are expended the bomber either needs to sit decloaked for just over 10 seconds to reload or warp out and back in.
- Launcher cycle time
There is a cooldown delay between bomb deployment however the hud provides no way of knowing when that cooldown period is over without risking decloaking and attempting another bomb deployment. Lag effects can make using an external timer unreliable.
- Bomb cost
Arguably the greatest limitation of all with bombs cost around 10mil per bomb give or take. Again due to high risk during bomb deployment this limits the number the pilot will wish to carry during an engagement and the damage dealt is simply not cost effective, the same applies to EW based bombs including voids.
- Bomb volume
Another limitation making bombs difficult to use far from a home base where they can acquire fresh ammo. A designated supply ship is not practical due again to the high cost per bomb.
- Limited simultaneous deployment
Bombs can destroy each other and even though bombs of the same damage type are hardened against their native damage the maximum number that can be deployed is limited to 3 to 5 bombs approx depending on the pilots skills. Anymore and bombs will destroy each other.
Summary...
Simply put the time, isk cost and effort required to deploy bombs is just not worth the damage they can inflict when other ships easily contribute more to a fleet.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:47:00 -
[2]
Possible solution...
- Allow the bomber to use the covert ops cloak (warping cloaked).
- Increase the cpu and pwg of bombers to give them more flexability.
- Remove the ability to mount and use cruise missiles.
- Allow bombers to mount up to 3 bomb launchers.
- Increase the bomb launchers capacity to 4 bombs.
- Luancher cycle time is changed to match the cooldown time.
- Reduce the bombs cost to approximatly 1mil per bomb.
- Increase the bombs flight range to 30kms.
- Allow bombs to be lockable and destroyable by other players ships.
- Double the bombs hitpoints to its native damage.
- A new low slot bomb damage module that can take scripts. The base stats of the module do not change the bombs damage or explosion range and only one can be fitted to a bomber. The first script could be called focused explosion: It reduces the bombs blast range to 5kms but increases the bombs damage by 100% (smaller blast range, double damage). The second script could be called explosion amplifier: It increases the bombs blast range to 30kms but reduces the damage by 50%.
- A new low slot bomb deployment modifier that can be scripted. Again the base stats of the module do not change anything and only one can be fitted. The first script could be called Deployment Accelerator: It reduces the bombs flight time and increases the bombs speed therefore reducing the time it takes the bomb to reach its target while maintaining the same engagement range. The second script could be called Launcher Accelerator: It reduces the cycle time of the bomb launcher allowing a fresh bomb to be launched sooner.
- Create a new tech 2 destroyer hull that essentially functions like stealth bombers do now with regards to cloaking and cruise missiles, however allows it to mount 8 cruise batteries with a stiff rof penalty.
Summary...
The purpose of the above is to make bombs much more viable as a weapon by allowing individual bombers to be more effective at positioning covertly and deploying the bombs themselves. Increasing the fittings gives the bomber pilots less of a headache when trying to fit out the ships, and there is little risk of overpowered setups being produced due to the nature of the bombers role and its slot limitations: restrictive cpu and pwg is unecessary.
The ability to mount multiple launchers and carry more bombs per launcher allows a bomber to remain in the field for far longer before having to disengage and reload (an issue other frigates and most other ships do not have to contend with). Increasing the launchers cycle time to match the cooldown time is really just the simplest way I can think of to indicate to a player when a launcher is ready to fire again, in either case something is needed in this regard.
*Reducing the bombs cost makes them more cost effective to use and risk deployment with, however they remain costly enough to not be casually tossed around. Increasing the bombs flight range to 30kms is intended to work with the ability for other players to lock and shoot down the bombs. This gives the slower defenders (such as battleships) some ability to defend against bombs that can now be effectively deployed in greater numbers at once. Fast ships are already capable of easily evading bombs if they are paying attention, if they aren't...well tough shit buddy. Doubling the hitpoints also plays into this while at the same time increasing the number of bombs that can be deployed at once.
The low slot modifiers are intended to give bomber pilots some flexibility in customising their deployment by focusing damage into a smaller area with a higher risk of missing or chosing to reduce damage but hit a wider area at once. They can also attempt to increase their chances of getting a faster bomb past the defenders or going for a faster cycle time to hit the targets sooner.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.24 09:48:00 -
[3]
The purpose of the new destroyer is to take part of the original bombers abilities and improve upon it with a slightly different approach. With the new destroyer being able to mount 8 launchers it can provide a huge alpha for a small ship but the rof penalty ensures that it can't out damage a battleship.
Maintaining the inability to not warp cloaked is important in order to prevent such a ship from becoming stupidly overpowered. This idea still needs work but the main focus of this post is the bombers and bomb deployment.
*Note: During writing this it occured to me a possible anti bomb defence may be defender missiles. However the module would likely require the removal of needing a launcher point and instead making it neutral like nos and neuts are. This gives the defenders the option to sacrifice a high slot for bomb defence or to gamble on not needing one.
Either way I havn't thought this part out yet but wanted to toss it in here while I remembered.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
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Posted - 2008.08.27 10:36:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Problem of the bombs is very complicated procedure of aiming and firing, which is very hard to pull off in a real-life tactical situation. You need to position the bombers in right place, align several bombers, launch bombs at the same time and launch them from same distance from target.
This is EXTREMELY hard. Even if you ambush the enemy, so your bombers are already cloaked and in position, coordination of this is a nightmare. And if you need to warp bombers in - forget it.
I originally thought like this about the bombs at the start but after spending quite some time with friends trying different tactics the current method of bomb deployment is one of the best approaches implemented simply because it is one of the few factors that is almost completely determined by the players ability to handle their ship in a coordinated fashion.
The current tactic that's proven very successful for us in this was to have everyone move within 20kms of the target and simply stop or take a position that maintains that range safely.
Once everyone has verified they're in position, manually set your speed to its lowest possible speed that isn't stationary and then approach the target. This gives everyone time to align on the target without getting too close.
Once at the appropriate firing range give the order for everyone to decloak and fire off their bombs.
As soon as the bombs are released attempt to recloak and set your speed to maximum while moving off in a different direction.
The above will almost always ensure you never fly within the explosive radius of your bomb and helps make sure everyone deploys their payload at the same time. If done right (and accounting for lag) you should only be decloaked for a few seconds. If you have surprise on your side and the enemy is busy engaging other targets you should be able to cloak and escape before they can react.
Of course lag makes this much more difficult but in truth that's the same for any frigate pilot under the same circumstances.
Anywho...
The main idea posted isn't really anything to do with the use of cruise missiles on bombers, it's to do with making bomb deployment more viable.
The only reason suggested for moving the cruise missile ability to another hull was because a stealth bomber that can use cruise missiles AND warp cloaked would be overpowered, however I firmly believe that the ability to warp cloaked is important for any serious attempt at coordinated bomb deployment.
In truth the idea works just as well reversed with the current stealth bomber maintaining its cruise missile ability and bomb deployment being used on another hull. Either way the different requirements of both weapon systems really do need separate ships with different abilities suited to those weapons.
Oh and for the record I've clocked plenty of time flying bombers and know how to use them just fine.
All the posted examples of bombers being "effective" involve them ganking lone or improperly equipped targets, all of which could be killed faster and more effectively by inty or af gangs of equal size.
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