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Arna Padrona
Amarr
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.27 08:26:00 -
[1]
There's much talk of how unprofitable mining is - and yes, it really is - but the common solution people suggest is this: "Hey, I want a bigger ship that can mine MORE!"
I have to counter this by saying that the low profits of mining in the end isn't a result of bad yield; unlike most games, this one has a proper economy.
I remember making a lot more from mining a while back, even though I had worse equipment. Prices have dropped. That's odd, isn't it? Prices dropping, I mean. With faction warfare, random high-sec gankings and the galaxy ripe with war - how the hell can the mineral prices be dropping? More ships, and larger ships, than ever are being turned to debris.
So, I can only assume the drop in mining profits is largely due to the fact that more minerals are being mined than before, saturating the market. That makes sense too. Two years ago, you could find 0.5 systems with veldspar boulders the size of moons - virtually inhabited. Now, no matter where you go, the most you seem to find in high security space is a crescent moon of gravel floating in space. What happened? I can see two possibilities:
a) A larger percentage of the player base has taken up mining.
b) Professional macro mining.
What do you think? Bit of both? More b than a perhaps? No matter.
What do you think happens if everyone suddenly gets a 30% increase in mining yield? If you think it means you get 30% more money - I think you are wrong. The minerals will flood the market, and the price will drop even further. Ships and goods made from the minerals will drop in price - and we end up at status quo. Possibly worse - flooding the market with 30% extra minerals will not make more ships blow up. We'll end up with a mineral surplus so great that prices will drop dramatically, far more than the 30%... That may make mining even LESS profitable.
The best way to increase profitability in mining is to get rid of the mineral surplus and push the price up. How do you do that?
a) Murder the macro miners. Go after them with a vengeance. This will remove some of the mineral surplus. How much, I cannot tell, but I suspect its more than CCP like to admit.
b) Remove T1 drops from missions. Missions pay enough in bounties, rewards and named loot - without contributing to the an already failing mineral market as well.
c) Increase the amount of minerals needed to build things. This will eat up surplus minerals, and jack up the prices of ships, modules and ammo - and thus mining profits.
d) Lower mining yield.  Yes, I know, it sounds counter-productive, but by lowering the yield (either the yield of lasers or the yield from refining - doesn't matter), the mineral surplus will shrink and the prices increase, quickly restoring, and in fact increaseing your profits. (This is really only point c, but ... backwards.)
So what do you think? What should CCP do to help make mining more profitable? What realistic suggestions can we put to CCP in the Assembly hall?
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Toric Gaul
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Posted - 2008.08.27 09:05:00 -
[2]
I might be completely off, but it looks to me that ccp is seeding tritanium sell orders in low sec system. Recently I've been seeing sell orders of the exact same quantity and price in several stations in the same systems. They show as a player sell order, but it's usally a newer account. They go up as almost the same time as well. Usually around 2.15 isk a unit when the buy orders are around 2.50 isk per unit.
Is this ccp tryin to bring the price of trit back down since shuttles were removed, at while at the same time tempting traders into low sec? Or is this a macro miner trying to sell his stash and not be so obvious?
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Arna Padrona
Amarr
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.27 09:12:00 -
[3]
Pretty sure it's corps unloading their surplus at a particular station. It's not valuable enough to risk hauling bulky tritanium through low-sec in 800 million isk freighters - so they just put up an under-cutting sell-order, in the hopes that someone, anyone, will take it off their hands. If they need tritanium somewhere else, they try to buy it there. Tritanium is a pain in the bum to move. It's just so bulky...! Packaging helps a lot, but still requires a factory on pickup, and a refinery on delivery.
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Toric Gaul
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Posted - 2008.08.27 09:13:00 -
[4]
But why split it up equally among all the station in a system? Among several systems?
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Arna Padrona
Amarr
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.27 09:18:00 -
[5]
No clue - but if it was CCP doing it, the orders wouldn't be from young chars. They'd be seeded by the usual ways, and have 99day durations, and certainly not be attached to any player characters.
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Toric Gaul
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Posted - 2008.08.27 09:40:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Toric Gaul on 27/08/2008 09:42:17
Must be a macro miner. Most of the sell orders are for 2,561,179 at 2.17 or off from that by one or two isk. Some go up to 2.29 isk. One of the orders is for 25 mil units, another for 43 mil. The rest are for 2-5 mil, but there are like 12 for the magic number of 2,561,179. (well until I bought one unit each from the orders)
Are are from the same character: Fisse Lise, in heimatar
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Tuleingel
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Posted - 2008.08.27 12:26:00 -
[7]
To answer the speculation of CCP seeding tritanium: Have you considered possibility, that all those minerals might be result of said character posting region wide cheap mineral buy orders and when there is enough of those he/shell will dump them on market at higher price sell orders.
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Toric Gaul
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Posted - 2008.08.27 12:42:00 -
[8]
He's putting up hundreds of millions of trit in cheap SELL orders.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:03:00 -
[9]
to the op. if you made mining yeild 100x more you would not drop prices very much from where they are now. the reason is insurance. a raven costs 32m to insure and pays out 112m (if memory serves right). that means that buying and insuring the ship and self destructing is 0 loss at 80m. anything less and you have profit. people would simply buy the minerals off market and build ships to self destruct. it would create a massive isk flood but prices would stay the same because anyone selling lower would be bought like this.
to the other. often trit and pyerite sell much lower if you have to cross low sec to get to them because of the pain in hauling qty. if the other guy did do regional buy orders he only cares about reselling it at profit to his buy order.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:44:00 -
[10]
On the issue of cheap trit sell orders :
There are some "move this tritanium from lowsec over here" missions, people prefer to buy trit at the destination and sell the one they got as objective in lowsec.
On the issue of "what would happen if yields are increased 30%" :
Seing how we ALREADY have an oversaturation of minerals on the market (the one and only reason why T1 PvP ship losses cost almost zilch after platinum insurance), and the only reason the pricetag is maintained is insurance fraud...
...yes, I would have to say that a 30% yield increase WILL lead to a ROUGHLY 30% (not quite, but close enough) increase in mining income levels.
If anything, it will mean a further lowering of trit prices (maintaining Veldspar income level, more or less) and an increase in mid/high end prices (making lowsec/0.0 mining relatively more profitable).
_
SHOPS || Mission rewards revamp || better nanofix
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Toric Gaul
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:51:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Toric Gaul on 27/08/2008 16:51:43
Several hundred million units of tritanium all in the same few low sec systems, all broken up at different stations, in about 40, simialarly priced sell orders? That's a lot tritanium to get from missions.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.27 16:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 27/08/2008 16:55:23
We need the influx of minerals from places other than mining to decrease not for the yields to increase. There are too many minerals coming into the system via missions and the drone regions for mining to be a truly worthwhile profession.
CCP need to put minerals back in the hands of the miners, then it will largely balance itself.
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Yamato Gasaraki
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Posted - 2008.08.27 17:55:00 -
[13]
This is what I think CCP should do:
- lower mining Yield
- flag Macros for free Kills
- increase Ore requirements on Productions
----
Become one with the Void, leave behind your earthen Fears, Desires, Hopes.
Don't let it fill you out, consume your Soul, your very being, making you dull. |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.08.27 18:42:00 -
[14]
Edited by: procurement specialist on 27/08/2008 18:42:28
 Originally by: Yamato Gasaraki
This is what I think CCP should do:
- lower mining Yield
- flag Macros for free Kills
- increase Ore requirements on Productions
troll?
- lower mining yield without a change to loot drops or drone mins would only hurt miners.
- and how do you propose they get flagged for free kills? being able to confirm someone is macroing already gets you banned.
- ore requirement? do you mean mineral requirements? this would also affect the base price of everything and not solve the insurance fraud issue.
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Yamato Gasaraki
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: procurement specialist
Edited by: procurement specialist on 27/08/2008 18:42:28
Originally by: Yamato Gasaraki
This is what I think CCP should do:
- lower mining Yield
- flag Macros for free Kills
- increase Ore requirements on Productions
troll?
no
[qoute]
- lower mining yield without a change to loot drops or drone mins would only hurt miners.
- and how do you propose they get flagged for free kills? being able to confirm someone is macroing already gets you banned.
- ore requirement? do you mean mineral requirements? this would also affect the base price of everything and not solve the insurance fraud issue.
#1 Problem here is that Macros benefit overproportional from every boost to Miningyields. Reducing the overall Yields could cut down on Mineralflow, increasing demand.
#2 CCP will have ways for that. I know that monitoring over 20k Players is pretty hefty, but I believe that CCP has already Huntingsquads against them. So why not have those Macros make up to the Community by being killed?
#3 We didn't talk about Insurance directly. In my Eyes, Insurance and Baseprice should scale according to Mineralcosts. And Aggressors shouldn't be paid Insurance in the first Place.
In reality I don't think any Insurance Agency will pay you for crashing another one's Car.
----
Become one with the Void, leave behind your earthen Fears, Desires, Hopes.
Don't let it fill you out, consume your Soul, your very being, making you dull. |
Eva YaMing
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Posted - 2008.08.28 14:41:00 -
[16]
Mining is still one of the best ways to make isk in game.
Go for morphite .
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