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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:34:42
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:33:48
The Boost Nag Mega-Thread
Allow me to begin by comparing the different dreads, and their roles.
 Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - (bonuses per level) - 5% to kinetic damage, 5% to capital launcher ROF
Amarr - Revelation - (bonuses per level) - 10% reduction in capital energy turret energy use, 5% to capital energy turret ROF
Gallente - Moros - (bonuses per level) - 50% to drone damage and HP, 5% to capital hybrid turret damage
Minmatar - Naglfar - (bonuses per level) - 7.5% to capital projectile ROF, 5% to capital launcher ROF
And now allow me to compare tanks using EFT and the all-Level 5 character without any implants.
For this analysis, there will be one repper used, and all ships will have 2 T2 CCC rigs and 1 T1 CCC rig. Also, ships will be fitted for maximum tank and maximum sustainability of said tank (meaning capacitor mods).
For setups, please see post #4 in this thread.
ACTIVE TANK (1 REPPER, RESIST MODS):
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - 5025 DPS (shield), lasting 15m 4 seconds
Amarr - Revelation - 2463 DPS (armor), stable at 78% of capacitor *
Gallente - Moros - 2093 DPS (armor), stable at 55% of capacitor *
Minmatar - Naglfar - 1795 DPS (armor), stable at 82% capacitor
* these ships have weapons systems that rely heavily upon capacitor use, so in reality while shooting their guns they would not be cap-stable
Now, as we all know, repping amount is nothing unless it helps heal your HP significantly. So, what is the % of HP (shield, or armor) repaired each second?
REPPER EFFECTIVENESS:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - 5025 DPS tanked / 284,884 total Shield HP = 1.76% repped per second
Amarr - Revelation - 2463 DPS tanked / 253,906 total Armor HP = 0.96% repped per second
Gallente - Moros - 2093 DPS tanked / 234,375 total Armor HP = 0.89% repped per second
Minmatar - Naglfar - 1795 DPS tanked / 214,844 total Armor HP = 0.84% repped per second
So, not only does the Naglfar have the least tankability (with an active tank) of all dreads, but the amount it reps is also the least significant. It is, however, the most cap-stable.
The Phoenix has the highest tank, but is highly susceptible to cap warfare (neuts / nos) because it will cap out in 15 minutes. On the field, it would not be able do tank that much that long.
Continued
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:26:00 -
[2]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:32:19
Quote:
But I don't fit my ship with a repper, I go fully HP tank so that my uber fleet of carriers can rep me!
I do too. Let's compare them that way.
Comparison of all dreads, using "buffer-tank" (active resist mods, no active repper). This will compare the dreads by effective HP, no rigs will be used.
(As before, see post #4 for setups)
BUFFER-TANK COMPARISON:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - 2,781,428 EHP
Amarr - Revelation - 2,563,404 EHP
Gallente - Moros - 2,344,200 EHP
Minmatar - Naglfar - 1,963,643 EHP
So here is the most glaring discrepancy. The Naglfar's active tank does not compare with the active tanks of the others, and its buffer tank is just awful in comparison.
Quote:
But the Naglfar is meant for gank, not tank! Look at its bonuses!
Ok, let's compare gankability.
For this purpose, two damage mods and the siege module are used. This is about as ganky as you'll ever see a Dread, and you probably won't ever see it because most pilots fit one damage mod.
Also, all ships will be using the maximum number of bouncer ii's their bandwidth allows them to fly.
NOTE - All ships are fitted for max range, when choosing weapons types. This means the Moros is using railguns and the Revelation is using beams.
GANK (2 Damage Mods) COMPARISON:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - 3,136 DPS
Amarr - Revelation - 3,894 DPS
Gallente - Moros - 4,046 DPS
Minmatar - Naglfar - 3,372 DPS
This one is a bit tricky, because its actually better for the Nag's DPS to fit 2 BCU's than 2 gyro's or 1 gyro and 1 BCU.
However, the Nag ranks 3rd in terms of maximum DPS. This is worse than it appears, because the Nag has used 1/3 of its tanking slots to get this DPS and is therefore much weaker than the other dreads.
SLOTS USED FOR GANK:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix - 7 mid slots for tank- 0 used for maximum gank setup
Amarr - Revelation - 8 low slots for tank - 2 of 8 (25%) used for maximum gank setup
Gallente - Moros - 7 low slots for tank - 2 of 7 (29%) used for maximum gank setup
Minmatar - Naglfar - 6 low slots for tank - 2 of 6 (33%) used for maximum gank setup
And now, on to the analysis!!
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:27:00 -
[3]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:34:29
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:30:01
Analysis
So, from our comparisons, here are the ranks:
Quote:
Quote:
ACTIVE TANK:
1. Phoenix
2. Revelation
3. Moros
4. Naglfar
Quote:
ACTIVE TANK EFFECTIVENESS:
1. Phoenix
2. Revelation
3. Moros
4. Naglfar
Quote:
EHP ("buffer") SETUP:
1. Phoenix
2. Revelation
3. Moros
4. Naglfar
Quote:
MAX DAMAGE SETUP:
1. Moros
2. Revelation
3. Naglfar
4. Phoenix
Quote:
% OF TANK-SLOTS USED TO GENERATE MAX DAMAGE SETUP:
1. Phoenix (0%)
2. Revelation (25%)
3. Moros (29%)
4. Naglfar (33%)
The Phoenix has the highest tank, and has the lowest DPS (as it should be, in my opinion).
Revelation has 2nd highest tank, and 2nd highest DPS (a slight imbalance).
Moros has 3rd highest tank and 3rd highest DPS (an imbalance, but given that a lot of its DPS are from drones, it is more useful than the other dreads)
Naglfar has the worst tank, and the 3rd worst DPS ... and to get the DPS that high makes its tank even worse. This is a major imbalance.
The only things the Nag has going for it is that its the most cap-stable of the dreads, because its weapons don't use cap. So I guess you could buffer-fit it, put a bunch of cap rechargers on it, and let it be a source of cap for the dreads that are shooting :P. Oh, and its vertical, so it looks cool. But that's about it.
So, there's your proof. The Nag needs buffing, badly. And that is not even getting into the (legitimate) discussion that the Nag is the hardest of all dreads to get into, because it requires two capital weapons systems and not just one like the rest.
FLAME AWAY!
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:27:00 -
[4]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:28:40
Setups used:
- NOTE: All modules are T2, unless otherwise noted. All dreads have 2 T2 CCC rigs and 1 T1 CCC rig.
From post 1, regarding active setups:
Quote:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix:
high - unused
mid - EM / Therm / Kinetic Hardeners, 2x Invul's, Capital Shield Booster, Shield boost amplifier
low - 4x PDU, damage control
Quote:
Amarr - Revelation:
high - unused
mid - 4x Cap recharger
low - 2x EANM, EM / Therm / Kinetic / Explosive Hardeners, Capital Armor Repper
Quote:
Gallente - Moros
high - unused
mid - 5x cap recharger
low - 2x EANM, EM / Kinetic / Therm / Explosive Hardeners, Capital Armor Repper
Quote:
Minmatar - Naglfar
high - unused
mid - 5x cap recharger
low - EANM, Therm / Kinetic / Explosive Hardeners, Damage Control, Capital Armor Repper
Setups used for EHP comparison:
Quote:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix:
high - unused
mid - 2x EM / 1x Therm / 1x Kinetic / 1x Explosive Hardeners, 2x Invul's
low - 4x PDU, damage control
Quote:
Amarr - Revelation:
high - unused
mid - 4x Cap recharger
low - 2x EANM, EM / Therm / Kinetic Hardeners, 2x Explosive Hardeners
Quote:
Gallente - Moros
high - unused
mid - 5x cap recharger
low - 2x EANM, EM / Kinetic / Therm / Explosive Hardeners, Damage Control
Quote:
Minmatar - Naglfar
high - unused
mid - 5x cap recharger
low - 2x EANM, Therm / Kinetic / Explosive Hardeners, Damage Control
Regarding maximum gank setup:
Quote:
Quote:
Caldari - Phoenix:
high - 3x Citadel Torp Launchers, siege mod
mid - unused
low - 2x BCU, rest unused
Quote:
Amarr - Revelation:
high - 3x Dual Giga Beam Lasers, siege mod
mid - unused
low - 2x Heat Sink, rest unused
Quote:
Gallente - Moros
high - 3x 1000mm Railguns, siege mod
mid - unused
low - 2 Magnetic Field Stabalizers, rest unused
Quote:
Minmatar - Naglfar
high - 2x Citadel Torp Launchers, 2x Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery, siege mod
mid - unused
low - 2x BCU, rest unused
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:28:00 -
[5]
Edited by: isdisco3 on 09/09/2008 15:27:58
Reserved for comments and responses by me
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:29:00 -
[6]
in before what i'm hoping is 5 posts worth of content?
__________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:29:00 -
[7]
.
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DesuSigs |
Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:31:00 -
[8]
.
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Murk Loar
Caldari
Polytope
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
.
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:35:00 -
[10]
gotta put the posts in before you guys start replying ...
oh wait :D
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Faife
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:39:00 -
[11]
nerf nagflar tbh. it's too vertical.
- -
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Katamarino
Sanguine Marauders
Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:42:00 -
[12]
On the plus side, it IS vertical.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 -
[13]
Wait, if you were going just off the numbers, than damn, that Phoenix is a monster!
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Faife
nerf nagflar tbh. it's too vertical.
I agree, first make it a diagonal ship, then you can make it tank better.
A good ship that's also vertical? Inconceivable!
__________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn
How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Taipan Leviathan
The Maverick Navy
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 -
[15]
Agreed.
Evrything bigger then a bc sucks for minmatar.
And with the nano nerf even that isn't sure.
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Zasmar
Minmatar
Vogon Deconstruction Fleet
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 -
[16]
I concur with the OP's statements
Seriously, its about time that the Minmatar Caps were bought up to the same standards as the other Races caps in general.
Boost Large Arties whilst your at it too 
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Anianka Star
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: isdisco3
Quote:
But I don't fit my ship with a repper, I go fully HP tank so that my uber fleet of carriers can rep me!
I do too. Let's compare them that way.
Comparison of all dreads, using "buffer-tank" (active resist mods, no active repper). This will compare the dreads by effective HP, no rigs will be used.
(As before, see post #4 for setups)
Can dreads be remote rep'd when in siege?
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:44:00 -
[18]
/signed!!!
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Anianka Star
Originally by: isdisco3
Quote:
But I don't fit my ship with a repper, I go fully HP tank so that my uber fleet of carriers can rep me!
I do too. Let's compare them that way.
Comparison of all dreads, using "buffer-tank" (active resist mods, no active repper). This will compare the dreads by effective HP, no rigs will be used.
(As before, see post #4 for setups)
Can dreads be remote rep'd when in siege?
No. Most people fly the one-repper setup because of this.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:45:00 -
[20]
And isn't the Nag supposed to be speed tanked?
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Taipan Leviathan
The Maverick Navy
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ruze
And isn't the Nag supposed to be speed tanked?
Lol
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Sexiest Beast
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:49:00 -
[22]
I can get 3930 DPS in the Naglfar
All Level 5
No Implants
No Drones
2x Gyros + Capital Autocannons
Have you considered using implants and comparing the difference between damage modifiers and then DPS numbers. Also does your setups include drones and which types
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Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:50:00 -
[23]
Naglfar is the ultimate chick magnete
Nothing says "I've got a permanent boner" like a vertical dread.
And to be effective for that it only has to do what it does best, sit in station and never undock. It's like it has been designed for this role alone!
I praise your efforts but I have lost all hope that the Nag will ever be more than eye candy.
___________________________________
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Aziz Hekato
Vitai Lampada
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Faife
nerf nagflar tbh. it's too vertical.
Aye, lets bend it like a "U".
_____________________________
Entering the Intergalactic Summit forum is like walking into a Startrek convention; All you'll see is a bunch of nerds and you'll go "WTF?" |
Taipan Leviathan
The Maverick Navy
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sexiest Beast
I can get 3930 DPS in the Naglfar
All Level 5
No Implants
No Drones
2x Gyros + Capital Autocannons
Have you considered using implants and comparing the difference between damage modifiers and then DPS numbers. Also does your setups include drones and which types
He said he was using long range on all ships. So no ac's
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Presidio
Hug Nutz
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:54:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Presidio on 09/09/2008 15:54:26
Originally by: Ruze
And isn't the Nag supposed to be speed tanked?
nono-far + siege mode = pure win!
oh wait.. nm 
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Asterisk Grat
Best Path Inc.
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:55:00 -
[27]
See this topic in assembly hall that deals with boosting naglfar.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779753
afik, this issue has already been submitted to CCP.
Pending CCP scheduling a meeting for review.
Naglfar is the worst dread of all, no questions asked.
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isdisco3
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Asterisk Grat
Edited by: Asterisk Grat on 09/09/2008 15:57:13
See this topic in assembly hall that deals with boosting naglfar.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=779753
afik, this issue has already been submitted to CCP.
Pending CCP scheduling a meeting for review.
Naglfar is the worst dread of all, no questions asked.
edit: hyperlinked
I wasn't aware of that, and have linked my post in that thread for numerical proof of the assertions.
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:41:00 -
[29]
The real problem with the Naglfar is that it's got the bonuses and hardpoints of a Typhoon but the slot layout of a Tempest. You really need the extra low slots on a split-weapon ship. All CCP needs to do to fix the Naglfar is to decide which ship the Nag is supposed to be based on and adjust accordingly (i.e. drop a mid for a low or change the bonuses and hardpoints to be more gun-oriented).
--------------------
"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Sexiest Beast
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Taipan Leviathan
He said he was using long range on all ships. So no ac's
Meh then this is all just completely moot.
If you want gankability then surely you would fit the ship for its maximum gankability ?
Also isnt he then technically comparing setups and not the actual ship. Lasers, Projectile, Hybrids, Drones all have differeent capabilities. Each race also has its strong points and weak points. Minmatar have always been about flexibility the need for various damage types and setp options.
Just because the cookie cutters make the nag look downtrodden and overly skill intensive then I think your playing it wrong. Maybe he should compare range Vs range and then close V close and see if it changes the picture.
Projectiles also offer a decent range of ammo choices Crystals being restricted to EM/Therm can be just as limiting as big ass Raw DPS
The Phoenix has a Restricted bonus to Kinetic missiles So if we switch out every torp on each dread to specifically use Dooms then you dramatically reduce the DPS of the phoenix.
Maybe im missing the point of the OP but the Naglfar follows the Minmatar loadouts pretty sensibly. If we are going to complain directly about the ship then maybe looking at the ship itself and not specific loadouts would get more Dev attention.
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