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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:30:00 -
[1]
Hello everybody,
I've come up with a mechanic that would allow people to respec their characters to a limited extent, and allow them to unlearn skills which they no longer have any need of (such as Energy Emission Systems). This would create a new option under the right-click on the skills menu to 'Unlearn Skill to' > 'Level 1, 2, 3 etc'.
The user would be forced to pay 50 ISK per skill point unlearned at a special facility (the corporate stations that make implants for each faction - Eifyr & co, Inherent, etc). The unlearning would occur gradually, outlined as follows.
The skill points would be deducted at twice the rate that they're placed into a skill being learned. This skill would gain SP at 1.5x the speed (meaning that the SP of the original skill would deduct as fast as they were being transferred, although only at half efficiency). If you unlearn a skill completely, you will need to rebuy the skillbook if you ever wish to learn it again.
Advantages of this plan:
- Skill training still takes time
- Unlearn some skills to gain others
- Cannot be manipulated (even if a stat is very low, you still need the training time)
Disadvantages:
- Creates another option on the right-click list
- Possible to damage some characters if they get into the wrong hands
- Allows characters to respec, very minorly
Well, what do you guys think?
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:30:00 -
[2]
Hello everybody,
I've come up with a mechanic that would allow people to respec their characters to a limited extent, and allow them to unlearn skills which they no longer have any need of (such as Energy Emission Systems). This would create a new option under the right-click on the skills menu to 'Unlearn Skill to' > 'Level 1, 2, 3 etc'.
The user would be forced to pay 50 ISK per skill point unlearned at a special facility (the corporate stations that make implants for each faction - Eifyr & co, Inherent, etc). The unlearning would occur gradually, outlined as follows.
The skill points would be deducted at twice the rate that they're placed into a skill being learned. This skill would gain SP at 1.5x the speed (meaning that the SP of the original skill would deduct as fast as they were being transferred, although only at half efficiency). If you unlearn a skill completely, you will need to rebuy the skillbook if you ever wish to learn it again.
Advantages of this plan:
- Skill training still takes time
- Unlearn some skills to gain others
- Cannot be manipulated (even if a stat is very low, you still need the training time)
Disadvantages:
- Creates another option on the right-click list
- Possible to damage some characters if they get into the wrong hands
- Allows characters to respec, very minorly
Well, what do you guys think?
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:31:00 -
[3]
Supporting my own topic...
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:31:00 -
[4]
Supporting my own topic...
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
The Dark Crystal
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Posted - 2008.09.09 23:20:00 -
[5]
Not supported.
I see no reason for it to be possible to 'forget' a skill outside aesthetic reasons and even then I see it as being unnecessary.
If the game had a skill cap then it might make more sense. As it doesn't however there is no reason to allow characters to unlearn skills as those SP's don't affect your ability to learn other skills (unless they happen to be a Prerequisite for the Skill, or happen to be a Learning Skill)
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.10 00:20:00 -
[6]
If you're going to have detraining(and I think it should be an option of some sort, if only for those times I want to have 255,999 SP in Repair Systems), it should be pure detraining, with no respec. People should live with their choices, not be given incentives to cannibalize their long-term performance to satisfy short-term whims and FOTMs.
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Fix the forums! |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:00:00 -
[7]
You left out the biggest problem with this idea:
-Allows people to respec to the Flavor of the Month at will.
Given the Neverending Cycle of Nerf/Buff that is Eve, encouraging people to constantly reinvent their characters would be bad, IMO.
_
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.09.10 09:39:00 -
[8]
I really don't see why you would do this.
My PVP character can fly all kinds of cruisers pretty damn well. Why? Because I keep wanting to try something new.
That means every month I feel like flying something new. I could respec, but why would I do that? It's still going to take time anyways. So why give up a skill? That's the idea of EVE; that skills are persistent.
While it would be cool to untrain my mining II, I really can't see it being important enough for the devs to spend time doing thos.
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Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.10 10:33:00 -
[9]
This is effectively already possible through character trading. If people aren't happy with the skillset of their current character they can just go buy another.
Not supported.
/Ben
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Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.10 16:41:00 -
[10]
There is absolutely no point to delearning a skill.
All skills have a value of some sort or another in the long run.
Whether you use that skill however is something that you have to deal with.
If you train something your not going to use... you only have yourself to blame.
Delearning is nothing more than a waste of time... the fact you proposed paying ISK is a major turnoff.
Unless you can find a positive spin on delearning skills... your better off buying a lower graded clone and killing yourself (in game that is) and chancing it in not having a skill or 2.
Granted you can't control that... but I'm trying to highlight just how foolish your proposal is.
Now if you can trade skill points at a cost.... from one skill book to another?
That's different... that means its going to something more positive... but the cost should be based on the value of the skill book itself...and the rank as well.
Higher the rank and value... the higher the cost per skill point.
That makes more sense... then what you came up with.
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Exlegion
New Light
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Posted - 2008.09.10 18:44:00 -
[11]
Two problems I can see with this.
1) Encourages training for Flavor-of-the-months.
2) Devaluates specialization. Today I'll mine on a hulk for isk with all mining skills at 5. Tomorrow I'll fly a Titan. On Saturday I'll refine my loot with all my industry skills at 5. Next week I'll just re-spec all my hauler skills to level 5 to transport my loot.
I'm sorry, but I give this idea a thumbs down.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Asheru
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.10 19:45:00 -
[12]
I'd like to see some form of SP reallocation possible. Maybe with some SP penalty associated with it. ie you have 100,000 points in industry, after unlearning the SP you are penalized 30% (just a number, could be more, could be less) and allowed to spend the remaining 70% on other skills. A total SP penalty would prevent the abuse of such a system.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.10 21:39:00 -
[13]
I could only see that working if it figured the time to train with your highest attributes and reallocated figuring the same amount of time with your lowest attributes. that would prevent power learning a select few skills and then spending the sp on skill your attributes were terrible in.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.10 22:45:00 -
[14]
Can't see any use for that.
What does the op mean with: "Unlearn some skills to gain others" ?
You can learn as many skills as you want. There is no cap that allows you only to learn a limited amount of skills.
Besides: change clone so that it doesn't cover your current skillpoints, selfdestruct your pod...
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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.11 00:34:00 -
[15]
 Originally by: Drake Draconis
Now if you can trade skill points at a cost.... from one skill book to another?
That's different... that means its going to something more positive... but the cost should be based on the value of the skill book itself...and the rank as well.
Higher the rank and value... the higher the cost per skill point.
That makes more sense... then what you came up with.
That's exactly what I'm proposing. The balance is implied in that you only get back half of the skillpoints that you discard, and since it takes time to unlearn a skill, the difference in attributes have no effect.
Originally by: Exlegion
1) Encourages training for Flavor-of-the-months.
To a certain extent this is true. However, all this will do is give a slight boost to the training of one skill at a penalty of unlearning the other skill.
Originally by: Exlegion
2) Devaluates specialization. Today I'll mine on a hulk for isk with all mining skills at 5. Tomorrow I'll fly a Titan. On Saturday I'll refine my loot with all my industry skills at 5. Next week I'll just re-spec all my hauler skills to level 5 to transport my loot.
No, all this does is give a boost to training the skills you want at the cost of some other skills you may not want. You'd only be able to use half the SP of the skill being unlearned into a skill you're training, and it would be a very gradual process since the skill you're training would only gain SP at 1.5x the current rate.
By doing this, you minimize any damage ("My friend logged on and had me untrain XXX skill for this useless one), since it takes a long time to unlearn a skill, especially one at level 5.
The cost was simply thrown out there as a way for people to not do this at their whim, but having it require some effort (a 256k SP skill would cost over 12m ISK to untrain). This can be discarded to make the idea work better.
If I didn't phrase my original post adequately, I'll revise it. I'm looking for a way to allow people some freedom with their character (such as Mining or Salvage Drone Operation skills) in a way that minimizes exploitation and satisfies the respecification crowd.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Kira Morganstien
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Posted - 2008.09.12 02:16:00 -
[16]
I agree with everyone else, not supporting
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Wikis
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Posted - 2008.09.16 05:57:00 -
[17]
+1
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DEATHsyphon
Gallente
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:29:00 -
[18]
Meh, would rather see more learning skills to train up which I hear is in the works ^^
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I'm not not going to pod you! |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.09.16 13:19:00 -
[19]
You forgot one disadvantage: Defies any form of logic or coherent reality.
As a game mechanic skillpoints may be a arbitrary measure of knowledge but in reality knowledge can't be converted from one piece to information to another. Unlearning knowledge will not gain you any new information. It's like burning books to have magically appear new ones in your bookshelf. It. Does. NOT. Work.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Anig Browl
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Posted - 2008.09.16 21:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Exlegion
2) Devaluates specialization. Today I'll mine on a hulk for isk with all mining skills at 5. Tomorrow I'll fly a Titan. On Saturday I'll refine my loot with all my industry skills at 5. Next week I'll just re-spec all my hauler skills to level 5 to transport my loot.
I'm sorry, but I give this idea a thumbs down.
Nonsense. At a rate of 2 for 1 (or even 1.5:1) it's not going to get abused on a regular basis: 8 million SP moved around would turn into 4m (or 6m) SP in the new skill. Do it again and you'd only get 2m SP (or 4m SP), do it again and you'd only get 1m SP etc.
It would not discourage specialization, but rather encourage it: players who skilled up randomly while learning the game could refocus their abilities, but at a steep cost.
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Silvana Kor'ah
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Posted - 2008.09.17 01:00:00 -
[21]
Not only that it is not arqueable in RP content to "unlearn" skills, it's imho also way too much work for little benefit.
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Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.17 03:17:00 -
[22]
The arguement that this does not make sense in roleplay terms is completely irrelevant. Our characters live in a universe where their consciousness can be teleported hundreds of light years away instantly, with no damage to the host or destination clones.
In this case, the neural network in the brain (as it is so well mapped out) could be 'scrambled' in certain areas to make way for new neural pathways. Since these neurons already have some charge, the relearning process could easily achieve the 50% marker I described while a new skill is learned.
Doing this would make character buying more palatable, as you could unlearn a few skills you didn't want in order to boost your learning in other skills you want more. I'm not saying that it wouldn't take some effort, but given the skill system as it is, these minor tweaks shouldn't take too much programming effort.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Dogfighter
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Posted - 2008.09.17 22:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Not supported.
I see no reason for it to be possible to 'forget' a skill outside aesthetic reasons and even then I see it as being unnecessary.
If the game had a skill cap then it might make more sense. As it doesn't however there is no reason to allow characters to unlearn skills as those SP's don't affect your ability to learn other skills (unless they happen to be a Prerequisite for the Skill, or happen to be a Learning Skill)
I support the idea of a skill capacitor of 1-2 days.
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Khanid MMVIII
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:10:00 -
[24]
NOT SUPPORTED!!
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Terra Mikael
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.09.18 13:30:00 -
[25]
Dumb idea....unless of course I got the skillbook returned to me and automatically unlearned the skill.
then it might actually be usefull when i'm broke.
otherwise, crap.
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Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.18 17:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bunyip
The arguement that this does not make sense in roleplay terms is completely irrelevant. Our characters live in a universe where their consciousness can be teleported hundreds of light years away instantly, with no damage to the host or destination clones.
In this case, the neural network in the brain (as it is so well mapped out) could be 'scrambled' in certain areas to make way for new neural pathways. Since these neurons already have some charge, the relearning process could easily achieve the 50% marker I described while a new skill is learned.
Doing this would make character buying more palatable, as you could unlearn a few skills you didn't want in order to boost your learning in other skills you want more. I'm not saying that it wouldn't take some effort, but given the skill system as it is, these minor tweaks shouldn't take too much programming effort.
While your getting your head in the clouds and flapping your gums.... did it occur to you that when you unlearn a skill... that the said skill could cause a chain reaciton and invalidate a skill you learned down the line? Oops... guess you didn't think about that one did you.
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Don't make assumptions or begin to guess at what kind of trouble this would cause in the programming field. I seriously doubt your even capable of comprehending logistical structure let alone algorithmic methodology.
As I've said many times in my field.... its one thing to come up with an idea... its a whole different matter to implement that idea.
What you are asking for is a can of worms that I'm very sure CCP is not interested in getting into.
Your asking for fluff... and its going to end up suggestion/idea number 10,000
Sorry... but there are far more important things to look into.
All I see here is a poor excuse to speed up training and you obviously took a wrong route/path.
Even if you came up with a good way of implementing the solution... you have to deal with the glitches and chain reactions of said actions that could really cause hell on the developers.
Hence why its getting ignored.... for now anyway.
As I can't pretend to understand how the system runs.
But I do know this much... its never as simple as people love to pretend it is.
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