It's also funny that there are idiots who think that the CSM has any choice as to what is NDA'd and what isn't; if it was up to us, we'd tell you what the meeting was about. But in this case it's Zulu's decision. vOv

I get that, Mittani, I really do. But I am of the firm opinion that the way NDAs are currently being employed is doing more harm than good. Now I fully understand the CSM has no control over what is NDA'd and what isn't, and it's extremely unlikely that CCP will suddenly decide that nothing will be NDA'd.

Therefore the solution seems obvious: Starting now CCP should not share ANY information with the CSM that it isn't fully prepared to share with the entire EVE community. That means the CSM may get some information a little later than it does now, however, it also means the CSM will never again be put in the position of being forced to tell the players, "CCP is working on all kinds of juicy stuff but we can't tell you about any of it. You'll have to trust us."

From now on NO MORE NDAS. Absolutely none! CCP needs to adopt the mindset that anything that's discussed with the CSM may be and likely WILL BE shared with the entirely of the EVE community at the CSM's discretion. There is no point in sharing tidbits of information with the CSM and then placing an embargo on the information. It's a destructive practice that only serves to further undermine the community's faith in the CSM as a whole.

In short, if CCP isn't ready to discuss an issue with the players then they should not discuss it with the CSM. Period. This should be self-evident to any CSM member whose primary purpose is to represent the interests of the players and not gain personal advantage by exploiting their position in the CSM to gain insider information in advance of everyone else.

I fully expect every member of the CSM to condemn my suggestion. Surprise me.

CSM can't do anything with the information so why give it to them to begin with.

GǪso you'd prefer that the CSM just have to take CCP's word for it whenever they say they're working on something, rather than being shown that they are, indeed, working on something?.

Because they need it to do their job.

GǪso you'd prefer that the CSM just have to take CCP's word for it whenever they say they're working on something, rather than being shown that they are, indeed, working on something?

Half the point of the CSM would be lost if they couldn't be told (and shown) things that aren't public.

I get that, Mittani, I really do. But I am of the firm opinion that the way NDAs are currently being employed is doing more harm than good. Now I fully understand the CSM has no control over what is NDA'd and what isn't, and it's extremely unlikely that CCP will suddenly decide that there are no limits on what it is prepared to share with the players.

Therefore the solution seems obvious: Starting now CCP should not share ANY information with the CSM that it isn't fully prepared to share with the entire EVE community. That means the CSM may get some information a little later than it does now, which could potentially make some CSM members unhappy. However, it also means the CSM will never again be put in the position of being asked to tell the players, "CCP is working on all kinds of juicy stuff but we can't tell you about any of it. You'll have to trust us..."

From now on NO MORE NDAS. Absolutely none. CCP needs to adopt the mindset that anything that's discussed with the CSM may be and likely WILL BE shared with the entirety of the EVE community at the CSM's sole discretion. There is no point in sharing tidbits of information with the CSM and then turning around and placing an embargo on the information. It's a destructive practice that only serves to further undermine the community's faith in the CSM as a whole.

In short, if CCP isn't ready to discuss an issue with the players then they should not discuss it with the CSM. Period. This should be self-evident to any CSM member whose primary purpose is to represent the interests of the players and not gain personal advantage by exploiting their position in the CSM to gain insider information in advance of everyone else.

I fully expect every member of the CSM to condemn my suggestion. Surprise me.

So you're not prepared to take CCP's word that the devs are working on something but you are prepared to take the CSM's word for it?

How so? In what way does it help the CSM perform its primary function to be able to hear tidbits of information and then be prohibited from sharing or discussing the subject with players?

The CSM is primarily a communication vehicle between developers and players

As we all have said a thousand times, we asked CCP to make the contents of the meeting public. They declined to do so.

CCP comes to us with all sorts of ideas. Some of them are very cool, some are very stupid. If every stupid idea had to be made public, you would be even more mad at CCP.

You also would have an entirely messed up economy. If a CCP dev says something one day about, say, nerfing technetium, the market would fall through the floor, even if we eventually talk CCP out of it. This would have very bad effects on lots of people, and would ruin one of the best parts of EVE. (For the conspiracy theories out there, CCP monitors our accounts just like they watch dev accounts, so no, we cannot make speculative trades based on stuff we hear under the NDA)

I hate to be so blunt but...

NDA'd CSM minutes are a small thing.

The CSM are members of a committee, there to represent the interests of the player base.

1) You have to trust them to do their job

2) As a committee their input and authority is pretty limited.

That's not going to change. CCP is a company who's primary business goal is to stay in business. Trust them to do their job.

As we all have said a thousand times, we asked CCP to make the contents of the meeting public. They declined to do so.

CCP comes to us with all sorts of ideas. Some of them are very cool, some are very stupid. If every stupid idea had to be made public, you would be even more mad at CCP.

You also would have an entirely messed up economy. If a CCP dev says something one day about, say, nerfing technetium, the market would fall through the floor, even if we eventually talk CCP out of it. This would have very bad effects on lots of people, and would ruin one of the best parts of EVE. (For the conspiracy theories out there, CCP monitors our accounts just like they watch dev accounts, so no, we cannot make speculative trades based on stuff we hear under the NDA)

I don't see much point in almost every bit of information falling under NDA.

Usually, an NDA serves the purpose of maintaining industry secrets - as there is no competition in Eve's niche, I don't see much point in keeping it secret.

more stuff...

GǪso you'd prefer that the CSM just have to take CCP's word for it whenever they say they're working on something, rather than being shown that they are, indeed, working on something?

Half the point of the CSM would be lost if they couldn't be told (and shown) things that aren't public.

As we all have said a thousand times, we asked CCP to make the contents of the meeting public. They declined to do so.

CCP comes to us with all sorts of ideas. Some of them are very cool, some are very stupid. If every stupid idea had to be made public, you would be even more mad at CCP.

You also would have an entirely messed up economy. If a CCP dev says something one day about, say, nerfing technetium, the market would fall through the floor, even if we eventually talk CCP out of it. This would have very bad effects on lots of people, and would ruin one of the best parts of EVE. (For the conspiracy theories out there, CCP monitors our accounts just like they watch dev accounts, so no, we cannot make speculative trades based on stuff we hear under the NDA)

Yes well no body is perfect are they

NDA sucks, having the playerbase representatives under gag sucks. But removing the private shield behind which the Cie. can do preliminary work (albeit sometimes bad work) would be a sure way to insure this community would go insane and explode :p

Considering this community's apparently unlimited capacity for being demanding, bratty, ignorant of the realities of games development, short on common sense, shorter on patience and almost entirely lacking in a sense of proportion, I'd say that CCP would have to be stark raving mad to stop using NDAs.

I'll buy that when you can provide concrete examples of all the wonderful results the CSM is achieving on our behalf. Until then, I remain convinced this whole system is merely being used as a convenient way to shield CCP from needing to respond to player concerns.

[quote=Headerman]I guess I should be thankful if they merely succeed in not making the game any worse than it already is.

I get that, Mittani, I really do. But I am of the firm opinion that the way NDAs are currently being employed is doing more harm than good. Now I fully understand the CSM has no control over what is NDA'd and what isn't, and it's extremely unlikely that CCP will suddenly decide that there are no limits on what it is prepared to share with the players.

Therefore the solution seems obvious: Starting now CCP should not share ANY information with the CSM that it isn't fully prepared to share with the entire EVE community. That means the CSM may get some information a little later than it does now, which could potentially make some CSM members unhappy. However, it also means the CSM will never again be put in the position of being asked to tell the players, "CCP is working on all kinds of juicy stuff but we can't tell you about any of it. You'll have to trust us..."

From now on NO MORE NDAS. Absolutely none. CCP needs to adopt the mindset that anything that's discussed with the CSM may be and likely WILL BE shared with the entirety of the EVE community at the CSM's sole discretion. There is no point in sharing tidbits of information with the CSM and then turning around and placing an embargo on the information. It's a destructive practice that only serves to further undermine the community's faith in the CSM as a whole.

In short, if CCP isn't ready to discuss an issue with the players then they should not discuss it with the CSM. Period. This should be self-evident to any CSM member whose primary purpose is to represent the interests of the players and not gain personal advantage by exploiting their position in the CSM to gain insider information in advance of everyone else.

I fully expect every member of the CSM to condemn my suggestion. Surprise me.

As we all have said a thousand times, we asked CCP to make the contents of the meeting public. They declined to do so.

CCP comes to us with all sorts of ideas. Some of them are very cool, some are very stupid. If every stupid idea had to be made public, you would be even more mad at CCP.

You also would have an entirely messed up economy. If a CCP dev says something one day about, say, nerfing technetium, the market would fall through the floor, even if we eventually talk CCP out of it. This would have very bad effects on lots of people, and would ruin one of the best parts of EVE. (For the conspiracy theories out there, CCP monitors our accounts just like they watch dev accounts, so no, we cannot make speculative trades based on stuff we hear under the NDA)

Exactly the response I predicted from the CSM.

As I said earlier, the CSM ought to be able to decide what to make public and what not to. I've helped manage a number of real world organizations at higher management levels and I'm fully aware that there are times when decision makers need to be able to freely discuss ideas without fear that every word might be taken out of context and make public. And it's also understandable that CCP has real business concerns at stake here, so most of us are willing to accept the occasional NDA.

That said, it's also clear that NDAs are being used as a smokescreen to embargo virtually everything the CSM is involved with. I stand by my earlier opinion. Something is seriously wrong when the answer to every issue and question seems to be, "Sorry, NDA." So don't expect the players to take anything you or the other CSM members say at face value so long as everything is being hidden behind NDA blackouts until it's far too late for the players to provide any meaningful input.