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Proposal: New Capital Ship Class (Bittervets, assemble!)

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Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.03.27 08:36:00 - [1] - Quote 1: Gunboat Carrier Equivalent I asked you guys at the game design panel if you would consider adding some new caps to the game to give players new things to train for and you seemed pretty open to the idea provided the new ships filled some sort of gap in the existing ship lineup. Here's something I've been wanting for a while! There are currently very limited capital options for high-sp players. Specifically, the carrier is the only capital ship that represents a practical, all-around useful ship for wealthier players. Carriers are quite excellent-- they are fantastic ships for PvE and personal logistics, as well as having decent combat capabilities and a role in fleet warfare (repping / triage setups for repping fleets and structures). There is no gunboat equivalent of a carrier. Dreads' only uses are for unopposed structure bashing and suicide-dropping. When out of siege they do less dps than a battleship and (post-titan nerf, anyway) have completely awful tracking. They have no CHA or SMA and are useless for personal logistics. They can't PvE, they can't do small-gang PvP, they can't provide useful logistical benefits to their owners. All they can do is bash ihub, nync, and suicidally swarm badly-fit PL titans. Supercarriers can be used for PvE, though they are not as good at is as they were when they could use drones (and using SCs in sanctums is generally just an awful idea). Titans under current mechanics can be used for PvE (only by sillies) but will be utterly useless post-nerf. Both ships have SMAs and CHAs but their inability to dock and extreme prices make them fairly impractical for personal / group logistics. The carrier stands as the only existing cap that provides useful capabilities to individuals while also having a role in small gang and fleet warfare. I propose a gunboat-equivalent of the carrier that would provide users with the following capabilities: CHA / SMA capacity similar to a carrier The ability to provide ~2000-2500 DPS using XL weapon turrets (with a tracking bonus to make them useful vs NPCs, battleships, and poorly-flown smaller subcaps when packing a tracking fit) Same jump range as a carrier ~500k-1.5m EHP when fit (Depending on fit-- ganky vs tanky. Again, roughly equivalent to a carrier) "Small" drone capability (Perhaps ~250m3 bay / 125mbit bandwidth) Price similar to a carrier (somewhere between carrier and dread prices) The idea is to give pilots a turret-based utility ship designed around a DPS role (rather than "some DPS plus excellent repping abilities" like the carrier) that does less dps than a dread but is useful for smaller-scale applications (PvE, small gang combat). It would provide gun capabilities similar to current titans (IE can hit subcaps with a tracking fit) but with much lower DPS output and a tiny fraction of the tank (meaning they can't be used to decimate subcaps in a fleet warfare context, as they will quickly get blapped while tracking fit). Personally, I'm bored with carriers being the only mixed role ship on offer. They're the only swiss-army knife cap in the game, and they're the only one that's remotely practical for PvE. I want a new capital that will provide a fair portion of the offensive capabilities of a current titan without the game-breaking EHP and absurd pricetag-- something I can use to blap rats with big guns, cram my things into and take around the universe on blackops deployments, and drop to provide DPS support to a small gang of friends, whether it be to gank someone's ratting carrier or bash POCOs in friendly space. I think that this can be accomplished in a balanced manner by limiting the ships' ability to tank. These ships would be fun to own and fly, provide turret users with a carrier-equivalent that is eminently practical and that employs their skill set. Please consider filling this void in the existing ship lineup! Rough Thoughts on Bonuses / Stats: 15% to racial capital weapon turret damage per level (so that DPS with closerange guns and lvl 5 skills falls somewhere between ~2-2.5k) 6 turret slots, 7-8 highslots to allow for some utility (at least one slot for a bomb / neut / cloak / salvager / whatever would be good) Class Role Bonus: 125% bonus to capital turret tracking (assuming you go through with the 50% tracking nerf shortly) Consider having the Caldari ship use capital hybrids, since missiles (especially capital ones) are pretty awful Not really sure what to use for the "second" hull bonus. You could go with resists on the Amarr / Caldari ones and ~something offensive~ on the other two. Or you could just not have a second bonus-- I don't think one would be strictly necessary. I know you guys don't find it that useful when players spew out lots of detailed ship stats etc, so I'm not going to do it, but something that includes something along the lines of the above setups would rule.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 501	Posted - 2012.03.27 08:48:00 - [2] - Quote Not a "Bittervet" yet... but almost there. Ganthrithor wrote: I propose a gunboat-equivalent of the carrier that would provide users with the following capabilities: CHA / SMA capacity similar to a carrier The ability to provide ~2000-2500 DPS using XL weapon turrets (with a tracking bonus to make them useful vs NPCs, battleships, and poorly-flown smaller subcaps when packing a tracking fit) Same jump range as a carrier ~500k-1.5m EHP when fit (Depending on fit-- ganky vs tanky. Again, roughly equivalent to a carrier) "Small" drone capability (Perhaps ~250m3 bay / 125mbit bandwidth) Price similar to a carrier (somewhere between carrier and dread prices) Bolded the [really] bad part. You know they are nerfing capital turrets so they CAN'T hit battleships with a tracking fit (or at least have a VERY hard time doing it)... right? The idea behind all the recent capital nerfs is so that null-sec fleets will not be dominated so utterly by capital ships. I could see this ship become a whole new fleet doctrine due to its versatile nature. Summarizing my ragey thoughts: it does do too many things well and makes me question why I would ever bring out a dred again... mostly because I don't have to siege, can still receive RR, can fend off smaller ships... all at the price of doing less DPS than a sieged dred (small price to pay). No. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.03.27 08:57:00 - [3] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Not a "Bittervet" yet... but almost there. Ganthrithor wrote: I propose a gunboat-equivalent of the carrier that would provide users with the following capabilities: CHA / SMA capacity similar to a carrier The ability to provide ~2000-2500 DPS using XL weapon turrets (with a tracking bonus to make them useful vs NPCs, battleships, and poorly-flown smaller subcaps when packing a tracking fit) Same jump range as a carrier ~500k-1.5m EHP when fit (Depending on fit-- ganky vs tanky. Again, roughly equivalent to a carrier) "Small" drone capability (Perhaps ~250m3 bay / 125mbit bandwidth) Price similar to a carrier (somewhere between carrier and dread prices) Bolded the [really] bad part. You know they are nerfing capital turrets so they CAN'T hit battleships with a tracking fit (or at least have a VERY hard time doing it)... right? The idea behind all the recent capital nerfs is so that null-sec fleets will not be dominated so utterly by capital ships. A tracking fit titan has over 10m ehp and can combat refit to ~40+ million EHP when primaried. They also do up to ~10k dps. By comparison, the idea for these ships is to have them tanking ~0.5-0.75m EHP when tracking fit and doing ~2k dps. There's a bit of a difference. These ships would make even a dread look like a tanking monster, much less a titan. Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the "recent capital nerfs" have been almost entirely limited to supercaps, not regular caps. Ask around and I think you'll find that most people agree that regular caps are well-balanced already. ShahFluffers wrote: Summarizing my ragey thoughts: it does do too many things well and makes me question why I would ever bring out a dred again... mostly because I don't have to siege, can still receive RR, can fend off smaller ships... all at the price of doing less DPS than a sieged dred (small price to pay). No. You mean like a carrier? Carriers already have the ability to do ~1500 DPS (granted, that's less than these ships, but carriers get mad repping bonuses as well and can use hordes of light drones to fight even the smallest subcaps), can spider tank while out of siege, and can fend of smaller ships. I don't think you'll find many people crying about carriers being OP. You'd bring a Dread out to do the same things you currently use them for-- to do 2-3x as much DPS whilst fitting twice the tank and owning structures / other caps in a fleet context.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 501	Posted - 2012.03.27 09:15:00 - [4] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: the idea for these ships is to have them tanking ~0.5-0.75m EHP when tracking fit and doing ~2k dps. There's a bit of a difference. These ships would make even a dread look like a tanking monster, much less a titan. Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the "recent capital nerfs" have been almost entirely limited to supercaps, not regular caps. Ask around and I think you'll find that most people agree that regular caps are well-balanced already. Noted and agreed, normal capitals are more or less "balanced" as they are. However, imagine 20+ of these supported by 10+ triage/pantheon carriers. It's the "high DPS" combined with mobility, versatility, and ability to receive remote effects without giving up much that bothers me. Even carriers have their pitfalls (their main damage system can be destroyed and cannot be used while performing its role, triage). "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.03.27 09:35:00 - [5] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: the idea for these ships is to have them tanking ~0.5-0.75m EHP when tracking fit and doing ~2k dps. There's a bit of a difference. These ships would make even a dread look like a tanking monster, much less a titan. Also, I don't know if you noticed, but the "recent capital nerfs" have been almost entirely limited to supercaps, not regular caps. Ask around and I think you'll find that most people agree that regular caps are well-balanced already. Noted and agreed, normal capitals are more or less "balanced" as they are. However, imagine 20+ of these supported by 10+ triage/pantheon carriers. It's the "high DPS" combined with mobility, versatility, and ability to receive remote effects without giving up much that bothers me. Even carriers have their pitfalls (their main damage system can be destroyed and cannot be used while performing its role, triage). I'm not sure how they'd play out in smaller lowsec fleet fights, but in any sort of nullsec fleet context a ball of these things would either be DDed off the field immediately, wiped out by supercarriers, or straight up alpha'd by battleship fleets. The idea would be for these ships to have slightly less EHP than a carrier, and it's not that rare to see carriers get alpha'd in fleet fights these days, even by subcaps. Yeah, I'm sure a group of 20 of these plus 10 carriers would make for a tough fight, but so would a group of 30 carriers. These ships can't have their DPS destroyed, but 3/4 of them would use cap for guns and they will have tracking issues at close range (armor HACs, AB battlecruisers, etc would tear them up pretty well) unlike carriers and can't remote rep each other the way a carrier blob can (30 carriers would be much more survivable than 20 of these plus 10 carriers, since none of the gunboats have reps). Yeah, these ships would be like a couple of battleships duct taped together for the price of a cap. Don't forget though that they'll be vulnerable to things bigger and smaller than them (supercaps and BCs / smaller would really ruin their day). I don't think the ability to do ~2-2.5x the DPS of a battleship to high-sig BCs and up is that imbalanced when it comes with a tiny tank. I'd be fine with going below 500k ehp for an untanked fit if it was necessary for balance. Also, dont forget that these would be far easier to keep on the field than Titans (which is I think what you're likening them to) since anything can point them. The idea is to make these a bit like the tier 3 BCs in terms of combat (relatively lightly tanked with good dps output) while including an SMA/CHA so that there's a gunboat that can be used for personal logistics the same way carriers are.
Markus Reese Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION 28	Posted - 2012.03.27 09:50:00 - [6] - Quote I could see it as being cool if it was like the tier 3 battlecruisers. Capital that fits the xlarge guns, but say the tank and mobility of a tier 1 battleship? Guns and engine capital killers. Tanks around 300k ehp maybe tops would be better and a lower production cost. 6 weapon fitting hardpoints and return the non fighter drone bay. Combat would be pretty cool. They would die faster than a cap and lack the spider tankability. Their extra speed would help keep them out of other capital weapons a bit, but still can be taken off the field by larger fleets. Vets would have something fun, elitist but not invincible to fly. Cost would need to be lower than a standard cruiser to match the disposable nature of them. Hull cost I estimate should not exceed 300m to be considered disposable. However might need to be a battleship hull just because of the cost of capship modules?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 150	Posted - 2012.03.27 09:56:00 - [7] - Quote They would be solidly in the capital category, having several times the ehp of your average battleship and a jump drive, but their buffer tank would be smaller than usual. They'd keep the active tanking ability of carriers though (roughly) which would allow them to do solo/small gang PvP and PvE effectively. They'd be able to use light drones, but only to the extent that a battleship could (maybe enough room for two flights of heavies, tops). I'd love to use something like this offensively for hit and run stuff and personal logistics, and I would love to see them in sanctums as well (more ratting cap kills, om nom nom).
GizzyBoy Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 10	Posted - 2012.03.27 11:34:00 - [8] - Quote plenty of threads over the last yeah of a support / combat carrier / drone ship thats in between a bs and a archon etc, basically an orca with 5-8 fighters and rrep bonuses
Spugg Galdon Callidus Temple Forsaken.Empire 125	Posted - 2012.03.27 13:40:00 - [9] - Quote CCP are talking about new modules being released with Inferno. Some of these modules are rumored to be drone damage boosting modules. If these effect fighters too you will be getting a monster of a ship in a carrier. One that can field a boat load of dps and then combat refit for triage mode. Super versatility! The "escort carrier" fit is coming.-á
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 154	Posted - 2012.03.29 01:31:00 - [10] - Quote Bumping my guncarrier topic because I want to fly one like next week. Dear CCP: Please Do This(TM)
Zircon Dasher 98	Posted - 2012.03.29 02:18:00 - [11] - Quote Soooo..... basically old school dread functionality with a new skin?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 155	Posted - 2012.03.29 02:20:00 - [12] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: Soooo..... basically old school dread functionality with a new skin? Holy crap, READ THE POST. No, actually. Functionality that is nothing like that of a dread but instead like a carrier but with guns instead of fighters. Unless, that is, there was a time when dreads had CHAs and SMAs and didn't have siege. If so, feel free to call me names about it.
Buzzy Warstl The Strontium Asylum 85	Posted - 2012.03.29 02:49:00 - [13] - Quote Looks like an interesting ship concept. A capital ship usable for nullsec ratting/anomaly work, not dependent on having massive drone skills, but still with a reasonable role in fleet operations. A most serious proposal.
Zircon Dasher 98	Posted - 2012.03.29 02:57:00 - [14] - Quote circa 2007: No SMA/CHA, but a Rev could get north of 50k m3 cargo (only remember because someone brought in a packaged BS+fitting with one). It was not as efficient as a carrier for moving stuff, but for those who already had a dread toon and didnt want to train fighters it worked ok. With just a DCU II it was over 1m EHP (iirc).You just hoped your friends didnt find out. lol Also that was pre-nano/web nerf (and all the attendent emphasis on sig tanking) so tracking/dmg against BS was not terrible. Station camping dreads were not uncommon in certain areas. They had drones until fairly recently (dont remember patch). Functionally they did what you asked just without all the specific desires for arrays/bonuses/etc. But yeah. I definately did not read.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 165	Posted - 2012.03.29 04:52:00 - [15] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: But yeah. I definately did not read. Woah, a dude who owns up to not reading. I like you. Hi5 bro! Yeah, I know dreads used to be able to haul, but they still lacked an SMA and their damage output vs stuff was still worse than a battleship's (unless they sieged, but honestly, sieging in belts / while trying to gank something doesn't really end real well).
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 194	Posted - 2012.03.29 19:08:00 - [16] - Quote MYYY GUNBOATS! (Make them!)
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 199	Posted - 2012.04.01 22:15:00 - [17] - Quote Really, though. Please do consider making these a thing.
Soldarius United Highsec Front The 99 Percent 194	Posted - 2012.04.02 08:03:00 - [18] - Quote Poor goon wants his ratting cap back. Also loled at carrier+small gang in the same sentence. Not no. But Hell no. "How do you kill that which has no life?"
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 1326	Posted - 2012.04.02 16:58:00 - [19] - Quote I want a carrier with guns and fighters, bot the stupid logistics bonus or role. Give me a death by drone and ammo killing machine with a dreads ehp tank and a BS ability to deal out punishment to the meek. +1 to the general idea tho
Buzzy Warstl The Strontium Asylum 86	Posted - 2012.04.02 17:55:00 - [20] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Poor goon wants his ratting cap back. Also loled at carrier+small gang in the same sentence. Not no. But Hell no. Hey, give the turret fans some love, carriers shouldn't be the only ratting caps out there.
The Hamilton Definitive Exploration and Excavations The Watchmen. 20	Posted - 2012.04.02 17:59:00 - [21] - Quote +1 for the suggestion to make a high-sec POS killer. Just make sure it is specific for that role.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 201	Posted - 2012.04.02 18:58:00 - [22] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Poor goon wants his ratting cap back. Back? I already have two. I want a new kind of cap! Soldarius wrote: Also loled at carrier+small gang in the same sentence. Not only carriers, supercarriers! http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13903387 https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/599354 https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/610883 Way to out yourself as a little man with little ambitions. Not everyone is a risk-averse baddie content to spend all their time hiding in highsec. The Hamilton wrote: +1 for the suggestion to make a high-sec POS killer. Just make sure it is specific for that role. Did you miss the part where this is a ship like a carrier? IE has jump drive, can't go to highsec? Reading: apparently it's hard.
Zubrette The Skunkworks 10	Posted - 2012.04.02 22:27:00 - [23] - Quote Why not just improve Dreads so they're not completely useless?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 201	Posted - 2012.04.03 01:33:00 - [24] - Quote Zubrette wrote: Why not just improve Dreads so they're not completely useless? Because dreads have a completely different role?
The Hamilton Definitive Exploration and Excavations The Watchmen. 23	Posted - 2012.04.03 13:48:00 - [25] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: The Hamilton wrote: +1 for the suggestion to make a high-sec POS killer. Just make sure it is specific for that role. Did you miss the part where this is a ship like a carrier? IE has jump drive, can't go to highsec? Reading: apparently it's hard. Well if it doesn't do that. Then I don't see an reasonable value of adding it. Simple; No jump drive, it has a reason to exist. With a jump drive, it will be OP.
Deathwing Reborn 24	Posted - 2012.04.03 15:39:00 - [26] - Quote Personally I like my idea of Tech 2 normal capitals. Both Carrier and Dread could get a boost to their specialized roles of either anti supercapital or anti sub capital warfare. This would increase the cost of fielding them due to tech 2 nature and reduce insureance payout / isk spent. It would also be mainly for vets because you would need carrier 5 or Dread 5 in order to fly them.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 201	Posted - 2012.04.03 17:18:00 - [27] - Quote I really don't think the game needs T2 caps. Caps are powerful enough already-- what the game needs is a wider variety of caps whose overall capabilities are similar to existing ones but focused on different roles. Caps with T2 resists, recon-like ewar bonuses, or stacked weapon bonuses like T2 ships tend to have would be too powerful relative to subcaps IMHO. The Hamilton wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Did you miss the part where this is a ship like a carrier? IE has jump drive, can't go to highsec? Reading: apparently it's hard. Well if it doesn't do that. Then I don't see an reasonable value of adding it. Simple; No jump drive, it has a reason to exist. With a jump drive, it will be OP. So only there should only be a drone-based utility-cap? Beacuse having a gun-based one would be "OP?" Seriously, what's the difference? This ship is a carrier that uses guns instead of drones and trades its RR bonuses for a bit of extra damage output. If anything, carriers are "more OP" than these ships would be (since carriers can spider-tank and have tons of slots for running utility highs like bombs and neuts WHILE doing all their normal dps).
Markus Reese Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION 95	Posted - 2012.04.03 17:21:00 - [28] - Quote I like the idea of a heavy gunship as well. In this case, a different dreadnought would be cool. The changes to ship classification allows this. As per OP, the main issue is for vets who want to be able to use capitals outside of the carrier or siege dreadnought class. We all know supercaps are a character lockdown and the price, so won't go there. I think back the the changes that the tier 3 have brought against powerfleets. Cost to damage, they are excellent for breaking in hit and run certain blob fleets if you have a good fc. This is going to improve as times go on. Powerhouse ships such as siege dn in fight shouldn't be a mainstay, and again people want to use capitals. I don't think it being a carrier class is the way to go since after all, it is a dreadnought. I think back to a previous suggestion. "tier 3" Dreadnought. The tier 3 of course only refering to the light and fast hull with larger guns. In this case, an excellent damage output, but lower than normal capital defences. Cost would be a little bit more affordable too, however they would be battleship style performance. Result hopefully is a fun and disposable anticap warfare ship. Vulnerable to smaller support ships due to tracking and hp, but able to break or hit and run against other capital blobs?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 201	Posted - 2012.04.03 17:33:00 - [29] - Quote I honestly don't think these ships would perform that well vs large groups of capital ships (unless you had a ton of them and cynoed them in at sniping range off a smaller group of bubbled / sieged normal caps, I guess) due to their low EHP. If you had a much larger gang with a lot of RRing carriers alongside the gunships I guess you could kill a dread blob. I was mostly thinking these ships would cost about the same as a carrier, and have similar (but slightly lower) defensive stats. Personally, I'd see myself using one for PvE, structure-bashing (where it's vastly inferior to a dread, but still contributes the DPS of a couple of battleships), personal logistics (it moves things just like a carrier), and small gang warfare (where you could drop one of these to provide the punch necessary to, say, kill someone's ratting capital, deal with a hostile battleship gang, or bash POCOs in hostiles' space while they're not looking). Basically, I'd use it for all the things I've used my carriers / supercarrier for in the past. The difference is that this gunship would drop the RRing capability of a carrier in favor of additional DPS and, obviously, would use guns instead of fighters. Both platforms and weapons systems have their pros and cons, and it would be nice to be able to choose between them!
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 206	Posted - 2012.04.07 07:45:00 - [30] - Quote Bringeth up mine finest posts, that they may be contemplated by the devs.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 210	Posted - 2012.04.10 19:14:00 - [31] - Quote New week, new post.
Admiral Lysander EVE Syndicate Navy Surely You're Joking 21	Posted - 2012.04.11 15:46:00 - [32] - Quote would you consider bashing ideas together coz i love new ship ideas
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 3729	Posted - 2012.04.11 19:20:00 - [33] - Quote No. This ship is all over the place and not that focused. Also I find it wrong the top 10 ratters in new eden are titan pilots. i dont need them to have a plan b. Nova Fox Shipyards Inventory
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 222	Posted - 2012.04.11 19:23:00 - [34] - Quote Admiral Lysander wrote: would you consider bashing ideas together coz i love new ship ideas Will it give me a hadron?
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 69	Posted - 2012.04.11 19:45:00 - [35] - Quote As nice as this ship sounds, and as well intentioned as it is, these will most likely just become the new hellcat/artymael/fleetbsofchoice It's a bigger, slower, battleship with cap RR
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 222	Posted - 2012.04.11 19:51:00 - [36] - Quote Copine Callmeknau wrote: As nice as this ship sounds, and as well intentioned as it is, these will most likely just become the new hellcat/artymael/fleetbsofchoice It's a bigger, slower, battleship with cap RR They don't have RR bonuses? They'll also be extremely expensive (what are carriers up to by now, ~1.6b isk?) and extremely vulnerable to being ripped in half by dreads or supercaps. They wont become the new fleet FOTM for the same reason that dreads and carriers aren't the FOTM-- put them on the field and you'll be hotdropped and murdered.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 69	Posted - 2012.04.11 20:35:00 - [37] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: Copine Callmeknau wrote: As nice as this ship sounds, and as well intentioned as it is, these will most likely just become the new hellcat/artymael/fleetbsofchoice It's a bigger, slower, battleship with cap RR They don't have RR bonuses? They'll also be extremely expensive (what are carriers up to by now, ~1.6b isk?) and extremely vulnerable to being ripped in half by dreads or supercaps. They wont become the new fleet FOTM for the same reason that dreads and carriers aren't the FOTM-- put them on the field and you'll be hotdropped and murdered. No RR bonuses? That just means they'll have to stay within a 15km ball to keep the spider going, sure it's not a dedicated logi ship like a triage carrier but a few of them will have plenty of spider As for the cost factor, between probably being a rich vet to be able to fly one, corp/alliance reimbursement, and insurance, I don't think many people able to fly these will have a problem dropping these things in numbers. Besides, abaddons/mael are plenty expensive and I don't think that's slowed anyone down I'm sure BS will still get used by the hobo's of the alliance, but anyone who can fly this properly will be able to afford it and will most likely use it You'll probably see your ideal tracking fit ditched in favour of buffer/gank with tracking link logi's Also the SC/Titan rapetrain you are talking about doesn't really occur in lowsec, making this ship the obvious choice for anything piratey I would personally love the concept of ship you are talking about, a gunboat with personal logistics capability, but in the form you are talking it's probably too overpowered in that it covers too many roles too easily I'd maybe +1 if it had no utility slots, and instead of a 125% tracking bonus, had a module similar to siege that gave a 150-200% tracking bonus, in exchange for locked in place for 2min and no logi support
Allko Zero Tax services 2	Posted - 2012.04.11 20:41:00 - [38] - Quote The new capital ship could use sub-cap weapons and a lot of them. Either give it 100% bonus or even better ... 2 mods on 1 slot. Now that would look epic :) Chimera like ship with 16guns/launchers ;) This would solve problems with XL weap. (no need to re balance, spec bonus. e.t.c.) and the new capital could do a decant amount of DPS to: carriers; dreads sub-cap ships P.S. 2mods on 1 slot = guns/launchers only
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 224	Posted - 2012.04.11 22:15:00 - [39] - Quote Copine Callmeknau wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Copine Callmeknau wrote: As nice as this ship sounds, and as well intentioned as it is, these will most likely just become the new hellcat/artymael/fleetbsofchoice It's a bigger, slower, battleship with cap RR They don't have RR bonuses? They'll also be extremely expensive (what are carriers up to by now, ~1.6b isk?) and extremely vulnerable to being ripped in half by dreads or supercaps. They wont become the new fleet FOTM for the same reason that dreads and carriers aren't the FOTM-- put them on the field and you'll be hotdropped and murdered. No RR bonuses? That just means they'll have to stay within a 15km ball to keep the spider going, sure it's not a dedicated logi ship like a triage carrier but a few of them will have plenty of spider As for the cost factor, between probably being a rich vet to be able to fly one, corp/alliance reimbursement, and insurance, I don't think many people able to fly these will have a problem dropping these things in numbers. Besides, abaddons/mael are plenty expensive and I don't think that's slowed anyone down I'm sure BS will still get used by the hobo's of the alliance, but anyone who can fly this properly will be able to afford it and will most likely use it You'll probably see your ideal tracking fit ditched in favour of buffer/gank with tracking link logi's Also the SC/Titan rapetrain you are talking about doesn't really occur in lowsec, making this ship the obvious choice for anything piratey I would personally love the concept of ship you are talking about, a gunboat with personal logistics capability, but in the form you are talking it's probably too overpowered in that it covers too many roles too easily I'd maybe +1 if it had no utility slots, and instead of a 125% tracking bonus, had a module similar to siege that gave a 150-200% tracking bonus, in exchange for locked in place for 2min and no logi support I guess I'm just really confused as to why you think these would be incredibly overpowered when carriers already exist that: - RR each other better - Tank better - Hit subcaps better (fighters for BC and up, sentries / "light" drones for smaller) - Can triage to provide insane logistics support to a subcap fleet supporting them - Have "all" utility highs I don't really buy the argument that these ships would be "too good at too many things" when carriers will still be the more-flexible ship. Alos, my "rough stats" / whatever were just a suggestion. Obviously CCP can do whatever they feel is appropriate while designing these ships. I'm just saying that there's missing ship in the cap lineup: a gun-based, multi-role, affordable capship that people can buy and use in a variety of situations. In short, something useful and fun with guns! With regard to the idea of using damage-bonused large guns, I think that's a poor idea. Doing so would allow seriously overpowered setups (the 2500 dps pulse-Apoc, anyone?) that would blap everything bigger than a frigate right off the field.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 72	Posted - 2012.04.11 22:57:00 - [40] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: Copine Callmeknau wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Copine Callmeknau wrote: As nice as this ship sounds, and as well intentioned as it is, these will most likely just become the new hellcat/artymael/fleetbsofchoice It's a bigger, slower, battleship with cap RR They don't have RR bonuses? They'll also be extremely expensive (what are carriers up to by now, ~1.6b isk?) and extremely vulnerable to being ripped in half by dreads or supercaps. They wont become the new fleet FOTM for the same reason that dreads and carriers aren't the FOTM-- put them on the field and you'll be hotdropped and murdered. No RR bonuses? That just means they'll have to stay within a 15km ball to keep the spider going, sure it's not a dedicated logi ship like a triage carrier but a few of them will have plenty of spider As for the cost factor, between probably being a rich vet to be able to fly one, corp/alliance reimbursement, and insurance, I don't think many people able to fly these will have a problem dropping these things in numbers. Besides, abaddons/mael are plenty expensive and I don't think that's slowed anyone down I'm sure BS will still get used by the hobo's of the alliance, but anyone who can fly this properly will be able to afford it and will most likely use it You'll probably see your ideal tracking fit ditched in favour of buffer/gank with tracking link logi's Also the SC/Titan rapetrain you are talking about doesn't really occur in lowsec, making this ship the obvious choice for anything piratey I would personally love the concept of ship you are talking about, a gunboat with personal logistics capability, but in the form you are talking it's probably too overpowered in that it covers too many roles too easily I'd maybe +1 if it had no utility slots, and instead of a 125% tracking bonus, had a module similar to siege that gave a 150-200% tracking bonus, in exchange for locked in place for 2min and no logi support I guess I'm just really confused as to why you think these would be incredibly overpowered when carriers already exist that: - RR each other better - Tank better - Hit subcaps better (fighters for BC and up, sentries / "light" drones for smaller) - Can triage to provide insane logistics support to a subcap fleet supporting them - Have "all" utility highs I don't really buy the argument that these ships would be "too good at too many things" when carriers will still be the more-flexible ship. Mostly because of the dps factor combined with no siege-type timer, you'll be able to throw out officer-fit vindi DPS but at dread ranges. Sure you can only hit BS/BC with it, but that's not an issue cause you won't be solo PvPing with it. Basically I don't really wanna see a situation where SOP for small gangs is a tackler grabbing a couple targets, Rapier warping in at 50, painting/webbing everything, popping a cyno, then minidread just blapping everything on field, ready to hotdrop the next target before the guns cool off. Would it be every pirates wetdream? Yes Would I buy one? Yes Would it be balanced in it's current form? hrmmmmm... Yeh carrier is more versatile and the logi they provide is probably more useful for a small gang, but it sure can't wipe all the enemy BS/BC off the field. Anyway yeh I'd definitely like something like this, I just think it needs a lil pre-nerfing first to be taken seriously by CCP (lolrite?)
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 224	Posted - 2012.04.11 23:07:00 - [41] - Quote I see your point, but couldn't you do the same thing with 4 pulse-Apocs for less than half the price, with way better tracking and range? Not to mention better locktime, more agility, etc? And if it's so appealing for pirates to put capitals on gates, why don't you see carriers doing it? They can do plenty of dps to subcaps (well over 1000 dps with fighters depending on fit) while RRing their tacklers / support from well off the gate. Hell, you can even keep the carrier on the edge of a pos shield and just assign 15 fighters to your tacklers if you want to. No need to put the carrier in danger. Do you see this happening in lowsec all the time? e: I'm honestly curious. The only time I spend in lowsec is while moving caps around, and 99% of the time its either empty, or some macho elite pvper YARRR type cruises by in a sniping Maelstrom and blows up your cyno Ibis before insta-warping off to a safe and trumpeting about it in local.
Astroniomix EliteTroll 39	Posted - 2012.04.11 23:19:00 - [42] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: I see your point, but couldn't you do the same thing with 4 pulse-Apocs for less than half the price, with way better tracking and range? Not to mention better locktime, more agility, etc? And if it's so appealing for pirates to put capitals on gates, why don't you see carriers doing it? They can do plenty of dps to subcaps (well over 1000 dps with fighters depending on fit) while RRing their tacklers / support from well off the gate. Hell, you can even keep the carrier on the edge of a pos shield and just assign 15 fighters to your tacklers if you want to. No need to put the carrier in danger. Do you see this happening in lowsec all the time? e: I'm honestly curious. The only time I spend in lowsec is while moving caps around, and 99% of the time its either empty, or some macho elite pvper YARRR type cruises by in a sniping Maelstrom and blows up your cyno Ibis before insta-warping off to a safe and trumpeting about it in local. No people usualy don't camp lowsec in carriers. Titans do occasionaly but those can easily be avoided by pressing the warp button.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 537	Posted - 2012.04.12 01:43:00 - [43] - Quote Ganthrithor wrote: I see your point, but couldn't you do the same thing with 4 pulse-Apocs for less than half the price, with way better tracking and range? Not to mention better locktime, more agility, etc? Ganthrithor wrote: And if it's so appealing for pirates to put capitals on gates, why don't you see carriers doing it? They can do plenty of dps to subcaps (well over 1000 dps with fighters depending on fit) while RRing their tacklers / support from well off the gate. The reason people don't do this is for the reason I stated earlier in the thread... you can shoot down the drones and remove the carrier's DPS ability (and carriers don't like field spare fighters when they know that they are going to be quickly shot and destroyed... they cost 20 to 40 mil a pop). Plus, fighters deal craptastic damage against anything smaller than a battlecruiser... and if you use smaller drones so you can actually hit smaller stuff you give up those "nice" DPS numbers... and those smaller drones are still destructible, take time to reach the target to apply their DPS, and can be outrun. Mounted guns have none of those problems. Also... alpha striking is quite hard to do with drones. tl;dr: the EFT numbers for carriers are misleading and don't take into account a number of factors. Battleships will almost always deal equal or more damage than a carrier unless the target is standings still or is HUGE. [quote=Ganthrithor]Hell, you can even keep the carrier on the edge of a pos shield and just assign 15 fighters to your tacklers if you want to. No need to put the carrier in danger. You cannot assign fighters in 0.4 space. You can also only apply 5 fighters per ship (and said ship cannot use any of its own drones). Fighter HP cannot be seen remotely (so they can be taking damage and you'll never know). And if an enemy or friendly enters a POS the Fighters automatically are automatically "lost." Change isn't bad... but it isn't always good. Somtimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 224	Posted - 2012.04.12 05:45:00 - [44] - Quote I didn't know about the not being able to assign fighters in 0.4 thing (that's just beyond random), but I'm generally aware of how carriers work. Also, you don't lose your drones when you enter a POS hth. Yes, drones can be killed, but they wouldn't be killed by the random dude in his drake that jumps into a PIRATE GATE CAMP. That dude should be jammed, bumped, neuted, and dead. Drones can be destroyed, but guns (esp XLs) can be speedtanked or outranged. So... And carriers can do a ton of dps to ships smaller than BCs using sentries. Justttt sayin. Yeah, they're destructible, but they don't have to chase targets and they can be pulled if they take damage.

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