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Time to raise the cost of ships by 2 or 3 timre. CCP. Make dying HURT.

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Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.13 12:31:00 - [91] Originally by: MotherMoon here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk. ahahahaa riiiiiiight. 5M/hr? No. the hard truth is that you can beat that rate doing level 3s in a t1 drake.
Joe Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2008.09.13 12:37:00 - [92] New players dont care about POS, Production chains, nor do they give a hoot whos in power of what region, or what a Blob is. Most dont give a care when a bitter veteran tells them some Tech II bpo propaganda All they care about is replacing their ships while they're learning the game. Originally by: Gatedeath I suggest tripling the cost of all ships. With no insureance adjustment to compensate for the incresed cost. This makes sense and i can see heaps of new players sticking around If your issue is just with blobs (that you refer to how many times in your post?), than offer solutions to 'Blob' warfare, dont try and penalise the whole community, especially those just starting, with a half thought out 'solution' Umbra Recruitment
Poast Warrior Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.09.13 12:49:00 - [93] Not gunna happen. More grind = less players = less money = not gunna happen I play this game for the PVP. I only PVE to fuel my PVP since the former bores me to death, so replacing a non insured ship is already painful enough. Originally by: Kiay Stryx Your an idiot.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.09.13 12:56:00 - [94] As much as I want to make eve harder, darker, more cruel and cold, the OP (and other "remove all insurance" types ITT) has got it completely wrong. Its a ****ed idea: the aim of making it cruel, dark, a harsh universe, is to force people to compete. Its harsh because everything is PVP(or should be, I'm looking at you, worthless mission runners who should not be playing EVE). The markets are PVP, resource gathering is competitive, and of course, combat and empire building is PVP. Just making things more expensive does the exact opposite: it nerfs PVP, makes people, ie. targets, far more risk averse, which leads to less combat. People do NOT deliberately open themselves to being **d if they can help it, and if their ship will really hurt to replace, they just wont expose it to PVP. That sounds rubbish to me, as a game experience. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.13 13:04:00 - [95] Originally by: Gatedeath fully fitted T2 BS that cost you all of 20 mil isk. A frigate is about the only T2 ship you can buy and fit for 20 mil. I Don't know what insurance returns are on a T2 BS but if it's anything like a Command ship, it's only about 30% of it's actual market price. At a guess, I would say about 200m max. Guessing at figures here but 700m for the ship, 50m for the insurance, 50m to fit it reasonably without officer mods. Get the insurance back and you've lost 600m. I'd say that already hurts quite a bit. Hardly what I'd call a disposable ship. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.13 13:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Dantes Revenge Originally by: Gatedeath fully fitted T2 BS that cost you all of 20 mil isk. A frigate is about the only T2 ship you can buy and fit for 20 mil. I Don't know what insurance returns are on a T2 BS but if it's anything like a Command ship, it's only about 30% of it's actual market price. At a guess, I would say about 200m max. Guessing at figures here but 700m for the ship, 50m for the insurance, 50m to fit it reasonably without officer mods. Get the insurance back and you've lost 600m. I'd say that already hurts quite a bit. Hardly what I'd call a disposable ship. I think he is talking about T2 fitted T1 battleships - fleet stuff. I can probably profit from losing mine. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Deja Thoris Invicta.	Posted - 2008.09.13 13:35:00 - [97] It's hard enough to get people to fight in this game. Make dieing hurt more and there would be even less of that happening. Not a good idea imo.
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.09.13 17:50:00 - [98] Originally by: Deja Thoris It's hard enough to get people to fight in this game. Make dieing hurt more and there would be even less of that happening. Not a good idea imo. The fact that people keep saying this doesn't make it true. When someone destroys your ship you lose a certain amount of effort/time. This is what makes EVE's PvP meaningful. Those who enjoy meaningful PvP will continue to do so, and the game may in fact draw in and retain more players of this type. Those who can't stand losing their hard work when they die will continue to avoid PvP and the impact to them will be minimal. Those who don't like taking large risks will continue flying what they can afford to lose regularly, only after such a change this might not be a carrier.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.13 17:53:00 - [99] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Janu Hull People who think wars of attrition are impossible fail epically at EVE. I've seen it done, even had it done to the alliance I'm in. Given the necessity of player immortality in this MMO, you don't win by blowing up their internet spaceships, you go after their ISK printing presses. No, not their death stars, their cyno jammer POSes, their jump bridges (though offlining them can be amusing at times). You go after their moon mining POSes. The little towers they thing nobody cares about. Nail one moon mining POS, and you've not only disabled that particular source of material, but you've disabled the entire reaction. In essence, you've knocked out two to four different towers by rendering them incapable of generating income. A few hundred million ISK per day of effortless income now becomes an ISK sink as hungry reactors burn POS fuel without profit. Larger alliances obviously require larger efforts, but constantly reinforcing those towers costs the station owners not only the lost income from the miners, but the strontium they have to replenish, the time they waste putting it back online, and the effort to reinforce those small towers once they realize someone's nipping at their wallets. Attrition is alive and well in 0.0, its just a very different game when tilting with the bigger windmills. You're right for the wrong reasons. Its not that the moon mining pos killing are hurting their wallets, it really doesnt. Us killing all of the NC's moon mining posses didnt hurt their wallets much. It hurts morale. 0.0 warfare today is about grinding down your opponent's morale rather than their wallets. Losing posses while you're stuck gatecamping a single cyno jammed station pos hurts morale, and give it a couple of weeks people start not logging on for the gatecamps. Or just spending all their time on their alt in Empire. Lot's of nulsec groups have been pushed back into Empire through morale and attrition. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.13 17:56:00 - [100] Originally by: El Yatta As much as I want to make eve harder, darker, more cruel and cold, the OP (and other "remove all insurance" types ITT) has got it completely wrong. Its a ****ed idea: the aim of making it cruel, dark, a harsh universe, is to force people to compete. Its harsh because everything is PVP(or should be, I'm looking at you, worthless mission runners who should not be playing EVE). The markets are PVP, resource gathering is competitive, and of course, combat and empire building is PVP. Just making things more expensive does the exact opposite: it nerfs PVP, makes people, ie. targets, far more risk averse, which leads to less combat. People do NOT deliberately open themselves to being **d if they can help it, and if their ship will really hurt to replace, they just wont expose it to PVP. That sounds rubbish to me, as a game experience. Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. - DesuSigs
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.09.13 19:31:00 - [101] Originally by: Crumplecorn Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. could you make a "slippery slope fallacy" desu? i could use it right now. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Saint
Labratory Rat	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:15:00 - [102] Here ya go . . . Link all of an individuals accounts/characters Scale the insurance payout down with the value of their wallets and assets or just don't sell insurance to people meeting certain criteria New/young players wont get impacted in a meaningful way. The OP's issue seems to be with the super-rich. This addresses that somewhat without impacting the rest of us. Tax the rich, leave the rest of us alone.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:20:00 - [103] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Crumplecorn Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. could you make a "slippery slope fallacy" desu? i could use it right now. Slippery slope is when you suggest that small changes will snowball into larger changes over time. I'm merely showing that the logic at the core of this suggestion is broken. I might be able to offer you a 'Misapplication of Logical Fallacies' DesuSig? - DesuSigs
Void Parity	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:32:00 - [104] Edited by: Void Parity on 13/09/2008 21:33:27 Dying already hurts. We know this -- at least, those of us who are not multi-billionaires. There are two general fix themes here; fix insurance or fix money making. Starting with insurance: Why not make insurance more like it is in the real world? There are risk factors: how many times have you lost a ship? What's the total payout of all the ships you've lost in the last month? Are you at war and likely to lose a ship again soon? You're uninsurable pal. That makes dying hurt more if you do it a lot, but hurt just enough if you don't. Next, fixing money making: Keep track of how much money a character makes in a month. Tax the character for that amount of money just like income taxes in the real world. Don't use a flat tax rate; ramp it up for richer characters. So a new player who makes 20 mil a month pays a 10% tax and a player who makes a bil a month pays a 40% tax. And tax everything: missions, profit from sales, bounties, all of it. This doesn't directly address alts, but if you're making all of your money with one alt, and you're doing all the dying with your main, both are affected, just by different sides of the coin. A casual player is not going to be hurt at all; a powergamer isn't going to be able to drop battleships like pocket change. Everybody's happy.
Void Parity	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:36:00 - [105] Originally by: Crumplecorn Slippery slope is when you suggest that small changes will snowball into larger changes over time. I'm merely showing that the logic at the core of this suggestion is broken. I might be able to offer you a 'Misapplication of Logical Fallacies' DesuSig? You're right, lets go with false dichotomy on this one. You're saying either nothing should encourage PVP or everything should encourage PVP.
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:37:00 - [106] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: El Yatta As much as I want to make eve harder, darker, more cruel and cold, the OP (and other "remove all insurance" types ITT) has got it completely wrong. Its a ****ed idea: the aim of making it cruel, dark, a harsh universe, is to force people to compete. Its harsh because everything is PVP(or should be, I'm looking at you, worthless mission runners who should not be playing EVE). The markets are PVP, resource gathering is competitive, and of course, combat and empire building is PVP. Just making things more expensive does the exact opposite: it nerfs PVP, makes people, ie. targets, far more risk averse, which leads to less combat. People do NOT deliberately open themselves to being **d if they can help it, and if their ship will really hurt to replace, they just wont expose it to PVP. That sounds rubbish to me, as a game experience. Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. You forgot to add in how people think.
Trathen Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:50:00 - [107] Originally by: Malcanis ahahahaa riiiiiiight. 5M/hr? No. the hard truth is that you can beat that rate doing level 3s in a t1 drake. Even with 20 million an hour, making someone engage in the worst RPG quest system ever for an hour is pretty damn harsh. _
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Void Parity You're right, lets go with false dichotomy on this one. You're saying either nothing should encourage PVP or everything should encourage PVP. I'm not saying anything about encouraging PvP. How about we go with "WTF you talkin' bout?" - DesuSigs
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:00:00 - [109] Originally by: MotherMoon simple question, what changed to make dying not hurt anymore. Mineral prices. Insurance payouts were created based on mineral value of the ship, with prices much higher than the current drone region fail induced high end mineral cheapness. The simplest solution would be to lower insurance payouts to better reflect current mineral values, which could lead us back to around 2 years ago, where insurance was a tool to somewhat ease your loss when your ship was blown up (just what insurance should be imho), rather than making the loss totally inconsequential as it is right now (something insurance should NOT be). And if you cannot make the extra money for a new BS fit after cashing insurance in about one hour of moneymaking activities, you either should not be flying battleships in the first place or utterly fail at EVE. The only reason why I still don't like losing battleships is that I am too lazy to assemble a new one. But from a purely financial point of view, losing an unrigged BS these days is at most a nuisance. And at least imho that is wrong. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Void Parity	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:01:00 - [110] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm not saying anything about encouraging PvP. How about we go with "WTF you talkin' bout?" I'm talking about this: Originally by: Crumplecorn Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. I could almost swear that last word is PvP ...
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:04:00 - [111] Originally by: Void Parity Originally by: Crumplecorn Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. I could almost swear that last word is PvP ... Your point being? - DesuSigs
Void Parity	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:11:00 - [112] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Void Parity Originally by: Crumplecorn Taking this to its logical conclusion, everything in EVE should be free to encourage harsh PvP. I could almost swear that last word is PvP ... Your point being? I think this is a game of "I forgot the post before your last post because my short-term memory is bad"; I'm not playing anymore.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:11:00 - [113] Originally by: Trathen Originally by: Malcanis ahahahaa riiiiiiight. 5M/hr? No. the hard truth is that you can beat that rate doing level 3s in a t1 drake. Even with 20 million an hour, making someone engage in the worst RPG quest system ever for an hour is pretty damn harsh. Apparently, quite a lot of people like it. But then a lot of people are freaks, so what are you gonna do?
Trathen Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:23:00 - [114] Originally by: Malcanis Apparently, quite a lot of people like it. But then a lot of people are freaks, so what are you gonna do? True, that seems to the variation in the death penalty anyway. Some people don't mind missioning so no price increase will discourage them. At the same time, I've also known of people who are more concerned about killboard ranks than ISK loss. Even if you can afford 10 battleships a day, it doesn't look good on your record. _
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:32:00 - [115] Originally by: Trathen Originally by: Malcanis Apparently, quite a lot of people like it. But then a lot of people are freaks, so what are you gonna do? True, that seems to the variation in the death penalty anyway. Some people don't mind missioning so no price increase will discourage them. At the same time, I've also known of people who are more concerned about killboard ranks than ISK loss. Even if you can afford 10 battleships a day, it doesn't look good on your record. Speaking for myself, after you've t2-fit, rigged and loaded up with faction ammo, the whole "insurance covers the cost of your ship" thing is kind of moot.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.09.14 09:10:00 - [116] Edited by: Kerfira on 14/09/2008 09:11:05 Originally by: MotherMoon here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk. Your 'truth' is somewhat untruthful.... A T2 equipped CNR (they're fairly cheap these days) can easily make 10-20m ISK per hour if you loot & salvage. A Golem with faction BCS' can easily make 20-40m per hour (with loot & salvage). I agree with the OP, but think the way is to limit/remove insurance. I can see three different ways of doing so: Solution 1: Insurance is based on sec. level: In high-sec, you can insure ships 100%. In low-sec, you can insure ships 50%. In 0.0, insurance is gives nothing. Solution 2: Insurance is based on ship size: Frigates can be insured 100% Destroyers can be insured 75% Cruisers can be insured 50% Battlecruisers can be insured 35% Battleships can be insured 20% Capitals can not be insured Solution 3: Remove insurance completely. Both are of.c. for T1. T2 insurance works fine as it is. The main reason to remove insurance is not so much to make death painful (though that is also a part), but is more to encourage the use of smaller ships too. These days anything smaller than a T1 battleship is rarely seen in 0.0 combat, simply because bigger stuff is so cheap (after insurance). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.14 09:22:00 - [117] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/09/2008 09:24:08 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: MotherMoon here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk. Your 'truth' is somewhat untruthful.... you failed to read the next line didn't you... here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk... FOR NEW PLAYERS THAT DON"T HAVE THE SKILLS OR GEAR YET and are flying tech 1 fit tier one battleships (if they even have one left after losing one. so it fact unless a player grinds up two battleships one for missioning back the isk for the lost one it will take longer than 4 hours. not qutoed.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.14 09:31:00 - [118] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/09/2008 09:24:08 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: MotherMoon here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk. Your 'truth' is somewhat untruthful.... you failed to read the next line didn't you... here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk... FOR NEW PLAYERS THAT DON"T HAVE THE SKILLS OR GEAR YET and are flying tech 1 fit tier one battleships (if they even have one left after losing one. so it fact unless a player grinds up two battleships one for missioning back the isk for the lost one it will take longer than 4 hours. not qutoed. So wait, which part of the player base is it that you're talking about? Noobs who can barely fly a drake or people who are flying T2-fit PvP ships?
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.14 09:43:00 - [119] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/09/2008 09:24:08 Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: MotherMoon here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk. Your 'truth' is somewhat untruthful.... you failed to read the next line didn't you... here is the hard truth, it takes about 4 hours of level 4 missions to replace 20 million isk... FOR NEW PLAYERS THAT DON"T HAVE THE SKILLS OR GEAR YET and are flying tech 1 fit tier one battleships (if they even have one left after losing one. so it fact unless a player grinds up two battleships one for missioning back the isk for the lost one it will take longer than 4 hours. not qutoed. So this newbie that can only use t1 battleships somehow lost a t2 fitted battleship? If this newbie is so new that he can only use t1 fitted battleships, then it will cost him barely anything to replace it. Would you like to check the cost of losing a t1 fitted bs after insurance?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.14 09:48:00 - [120] Edited by: MotherMoon on 14/09/2008 10:02:53 Originally by: Gamesguy So this newbie that can only use t1 battleships somehow lost a t2 fitted battleship? If this newbie is so new that he can only use t1 fitted battleships, then it will cost him barely anything to replace it. Would you like to check the cost of losing a t1 fitted bs after insurance? sure let me check anywhere but jita, one moment. ok tech 1 typhoon battleship cost:80 mil insurance cost for full: 20 million gear for tech 1 fit: 6 mil that's 26 million isk lost. which he's right is not a lot... for ME maybe. I have about 500 million isk and lots of ships, but I remember when getting a battleship replaced took 6 hours in a cyclone. HOwever it seems in jita you can buy typhoons for 60-65 million isk. SO I suppose it's more about actully knowing the rops and be willing to fly that battleship back. time sink. A good idea is to well I won't say :)

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