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Adian Grey
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.27 21:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
As I build up my skills for an Amarr PvP person who wants to stick to frig and cruiser hulls for a while, I have run into an odd thing. The short range guns (pulse, AC, Blaster) have a higher damage output AND tracking compared to their long range counter parts. It seems reasonable to me that these shorter range, better tracking, and higher damage items can hit closer targets in the frigate class and their own class with ease. But when I apply the Heavy Assult Missiles to cruiser and frig hulls it seems the damage will be very poor.
In particular the Sacralige seems to be affected by this. I like the idea of a heavy tank ship capable of missile fire compared to the Zealot. I see pulse lasers have the worst tracking for the medium short range weapons, but they have the advantage of range. Additionally this applies to Rockets and Torpedos especially. I've seen people using large guns to hit smaller ships that are farther away, but torpedos seems to barely scratch them, if at all, even if a small ship is sitting still a torpedo barely touches damage wise. And for that matter why is the Zealot's bunoses tied into Medium Energy Weapons and the Sac is specifically Heavy Assult?
In looking at Caldari fits I see ships such as the Drake use Heavy Missles over Heavy Assult Missles in every case, yet ships like the Harbinger always have Pulse Lasers.
What am I missing and what can be done about it? |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal
Terran Commonwealth
2
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Posted - 2012.03.27 22:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Long story short Signature radius target velocity explosion radius.
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Missile_launcher |
Mike712
BattleClinic
84
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Posted - 2012.03.27 22:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Beam laser harbingers were viable snipers and were used before the appearance of tier 3 BCs which have obsoleted for the most part tier 2 sniper BCs.
HAM drakes are fine too, HAMs can apply damage to small targets when you have the correct e-war support(just as with medium turrets vs small ships), webs/target painters/scram/energy neut, flare rigs.
Short range missiles have higher damage than long range, so nothing is broken in that respect.
Rockets work on the bonused assault frigs, hawk/vengeance, but you really need the target to be double webbed for maximum effect.
Torps are somewhat broken but will probably be looked at though at some point.
Regards,
Mike712
The BattleClinic Team
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
162
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Posted - 2012.03.27 23:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:Rockets work on the bonused assault frigs, hawk/vengeance, but you really need the target to be double webbed for maximum effect.
Double-webbed? No. If the target has an AB, you need a single web to get about-maximum damage to most targets. If it does not have an AB, you should be pretty much fine regardless.
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Mike712
BattleClinic
84
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Posted - 2012.03.27 23:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Rockets work on the bonused assault frigs, hawk/vengeance, but you really need the target to be double webbed for maximum effect.
Double-webbed? No. If the target has an AB, you need a single web to get about-maximum damage to most targets. If it does not have an AB, you should be pretty much fine regardless.
Hawk with rage rockets vs typical AB AF with MSE tank:
No webs: 39 DPS
1 Web: 88 DPS
2 Webs 142 DPS
Regards,
Mike712
The BattleClinic Team
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2012.03.28 00:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
^^^ Rage rockets should be reserved for targets bigger than you, faction rockets should do near full dps on any AB af with only one web.
As for why short range missile on the sac is underwhelming it is because of the ship, not the missiles themselves. Rock 3 BCUs and fit the sac like a vagabond and you'll do lots of dps. But you really want to armor tank the sac but with only 5 lows it is really hard to wedge in BCUs. Without any BCUs the sac does seem to have low dps but try flying a vaga with no gyros, it is painful. I like 2x mar 2x eanm 1x bcu on a sac myself.
Oh and once you fly a deimos, everything seems to have low dps |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
74
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Posted - 2012.03.28 02:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:^^^ Rage rockets should be reserved for targets bigger than you, faction rockets should do near full dps on any AB af with only one web.
As for why short range missile on the sac is underwhelming it is because of the ship, not the missiles themselves. Rock 3 BCUs and fit the sac like a vagabond and you'll do lots of dps. But you really want to armor tank the sac but with only 5 lows it is really hard to wedge in BCUs. Without any BCUs the sac does seem to have low dps but try flying a vaga with no gyros, it is painful. I like 2x mar 2x eanm 1x bcu on a sac myself.
Oh and once you fly a deimos, everything seems to have low dps
The Sac does less DPS than a BC. It will die if it fights a Hurricane, Drake, Harbinger, Myrm. |
Lijhal
Innoruuks Wrath
9
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Posted - 2012.03.28 03:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
some maths:
Missiles always hit, key attributes are ship signature, ship velocity, explosion radius & explosion velocity of your missiles
Dmg = Base_Dmg * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
Where
sig = ship signatur
vel = ship velocity
Er = Explosion Radius
Ev = Explosion Velocity
drf = Damage Reduction Factor
Turrets have a hit chance, key attributes are Transversal speed, Range to target, Turret Tracking, Turret Signature Resolution, Target Signature Radius, Turret Optimal Range and Turret Falloff
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range to target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
Average DPS = Base DPS +ù [min(hit_chance, 0.01)+ù3 + max(0.0, hit_chance - 0.01) +ù (0.99 + hit_chance) / 2]
CCP Ytterbium
As designers, we can tell Caldari have three main points going for them as a race and that is, missile, hybrids and ECM. To be an all-rounded Caldari pilot, one must realize all aspects have to be considered and learned! |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity
Exhale.
157
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:Beam laser harbingers were viable snipers
i loled :P
bottom line, missiles are for pve ;) |
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
137
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Posted - 2012.03.28 05:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lijhal wrote:Missiles always hit
Tell that to my Dramiel.
Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
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Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
227
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Posted - 2012.03.28 13:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Lijhal wrote:Missiles always hit Tell that to my Dramiel.
More of an exception to the rule I feel.
In nearly all cases missiles will never miss. Oh, unless someone is using Defenders......LMFAO!  |
BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation
28
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Medium sized missiles are just underwhelming when taking out frigate hulls. I'd really like to see CCP introduce signature/velocity modules
Always hitting means nothing when you are only hitting 50 damage per launch on a frig, while you can score big crits with turrets |
Kufik
CHON
THE R0NIN
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 14:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Btw:
guns:
Close range : small PG , small CPU
ranged : biggger PG , bigger CPU
missiles :
Close range : big PG , big CPU
ranged : smaller PG , smaller CPU
wtf ? where is logic here? Low range NEED bigger tank === more PG \ CPU.... |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
Defiant Legacy
55
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Posted - 2012.03.28 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Basically missiles and rockets have the benefit that they always hit, which is a huge benefit over guns, since you don't need to take care about tracking. However, there is a hidden modifier which makes large missiles / torpedos hitting very bad small/fast ships. So basically with small rockets and missiles you can hit small stuff very well and make it die fast. With medium missiles and rockets you can usually make small stuff run away after short time but if it is well tanked then you are in trouble. With large missiles and rockets... yeah its not worth to use them on small stuff if you don't have target painters and web on it.
Furthermore, missiles have usually lower damage but higher range and hit better small/fast targets than rockets/torpedos. If you fit rockets or torpedos then a web is must have.
Guns have the advantage that they can hit small stuff from large distance very well (if in optimal + falloff) but they have the disadvantage that they stop hitting at all if the small stuff is in close and fast orbit around you.
So as you see... its balanced in the way that while guns have a higher damage on paper they can easily doing no damage in practice if wrongly applied. So if you know how to use guns and can avoid the enemy orbiting you in a fast manner than guns have an adventage in capable hands... however missiles are much easier to use since you don't need to take care about this whole tracking thingy and you can fully concentrate on the field. |
Mechael
Team Pizza
Viro Mors Non Est
67
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Posted - 2012.03.28 18:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Parsee789 wrote:The Sac does less DPS than a BC. It will die if it fights a Hurricane, Drake, Harbinger, Myrm.
BCs were intended to be cruiser killers. That particular part is working as intended. There are still more balancing issues than you can shake a stick at, though, unfortunately.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Torothin
Wrecking Shots
Test Alliance Please Ignore
44
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Posted - 2012.03.28 19:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Parsee789 wrote:The Sac does less DPS than a BC. It will die if it fights a Hurricane, Drake, Harbinger, Myrm. BCs were intended to be cruiser killers. That particular part is working as intended. There are still more balancing issues than you can shake a stick at, though, unfortunately.
A good Sac can tank any of those ships with relative ease. |
Mike712
BattleClinic
85
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Quote:Beam laser harbingers were viable snipers i loled :P bottom line, missiles are for pve ;)
Wat?
~ 70km beam harbs and arty canes with logi support worked very well.
Drakes being the most used ship in PvP completely invalidates "missiles are for pve"
Regards,
Mike712
The BattleClinic Team
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OfBalance
Caldari State
305
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Posted - 2012.03.28 21:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mike712 wrote:
Drakes being the most used ship in PvP completely invalidates "missiles are for pve"
And drakes being one of the only missile ships used in PvP invalidates "missiles are fine for pvp."
The truth is somewhere between the hyperbole. |
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