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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:56:00 -
[1]
This morning, my iTunes started downloading a new TED video. It's an awesome place for finding interesting talks.
This morning, I received a speech about the moral mind. I was watching it on the train on my way to school and I thought I had to share this.
You can find it here. Watch it right away.
I found that it was extremely interesting from the perspective of CSM. It describes the exact problem which the CSM has - Lack of cooperation.
There's 2 parts to this speech which you should take note of:
1. Moral purity - The battle against good and evil
He talks about stepping out of the "moral matrix", which I think fits quite well. There's no right and wrong.
2. Cooperation - Making the CSM cooperate for making the world a better place.
He shows an interesting concept of how punishment increases cooperation. There's a nice slide around 11:00 into the video. Please note that I'm NOT justifying punishment in the CSM.
You can easily identify certain people from the CSM in this speech(The opposite of offense intended). It just goes to show that the CSM is no different from the real world. So we aren't doomed at all.
Now that you have watched the video, I will let you make up your own mind. But I will make these points, which I think we should discuss:
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
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ProduceMoreThanks
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:27:00 -
[2]
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:27:00 -
[3]
Puff Puff Give
 Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.18 23:16:00 -
[4]
TED is great and all - Bert Rutan's speech from 2006 is one of my favourites in a long time - but I'm not wholly sure of the applicability of this one. Assuming you don't intend to poll CSM members on their political inclinations, about the only piece of actionable information is that punishment for antisociability yields more sociable behaviour, and unless you intend to declare war on the Goons to punish Darius for not posting on the forums more often, that's not especially practical. And the one member whom indirect punishment has been tried on - Jade - has proven wholly impervious to that pressure, with no sign that he viewed it as anything other than half joke and half dark Goonish conspiracy.
Also, the bit about "there is no right and wrong" is absolute nonsense. Aside from the blatant contradiction(a statement that, if accurate, destroys the entire concept of accuracy), it is also a direct attack on the entire structure of human thought. I can buy the talk's implication that most societal debates should be treated as less of a shrill moral imperative than it is currently, and that stepping back and analyzing issues dispassionately is a good thing, but abandoning the entire concept of right and wrong turns your brain into oatmeal.
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Fix the forums! |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.19 11:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
My opinion is of no value, please move on. Hey! I'll give it anyway:
- The CSM members were elected to work together
- CSM issues surrounding 'working together' are much harder to resolve if spotlights are shed upon them in the public eye. One of the important rules of diplomacy is to not make your 'opponent' lose face. This mistake can be made if one takes the public approach in resolving personal/other issues between CSM members.
- Lastly, I call shenanigans!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 13:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: LaVista Vista
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
My opinion is of no value, please move on. Hey! I'll give it anyway:
- The CSM members were elected to work together
- CSM issues surrounding 'working together' are much harder to resolve if spotlights are shed upon them in the public eye. One of the important rules of diplomacy is to not make your 'opponent' lose face. This mistake can be made if one takes the public approach in resolving personal/other issues between CSM members.
- Lastly, I call shenanigans!
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 15:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Quoting the exact opposite of how any democratic system should function. Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Pot calling kettle black is another one. I'll edit this if I can come up with some more old sayings that apply to the quoted post.
:edit:
*goes out of his way to insult, degrade and berate other council members in any venue he can access*
*posts about how everyone else just can't get along*
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 15:38:07
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Quoting the exact opposite of how any democratic system should function. Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Pot calling kettle black is another one. I'll edit this if I can come up with some more old sayings that apply to the quoted post.
:edit:
*goes out of his way to insult, degrade and berate other council members in any venue he can access*
*posts lamenting how everyone else just can't get along*
Thanks for illustrating my point so perfectly.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Thanks for illustrating my point so perfectly.
Your point was "We should do everything in secret". I disagree. Don't like people not agreeing join a council made up of only yourself. I've just as much a right to express my opinion to the contrary as you did to agree.
Maybe you should go back and read the mailing list, shc, your irc logs, and anywhere else you posted where you became the only person on the council guilty of what you're posting against here (and likely the very topic of this thread and post).
Sorry if you feel you should be able to say whatever you want until it comes back to you, then claim some moral high-ground as if you're above it all when in actuality you're the first one to sling mud and sling it dirty. That world just doesn't exist so get over it.
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Your point was "We should do everything in secret".
No my point was that you can't discuss anything civilly in public because you are acting as a cheer-leader for 5000 goons.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 17:35:43
Originally by: Jade Constantine
No my point was that you can't discuss anything civilly in public because you are acting as a cheer-leader for 5000 goons.
I AM a cheerleader for 5000 goons (A base a few thousand larger than your voterbase FYI). You, on the other hand, are a hypocrite who likes to throw stones then feign moral outrage when they come back in your direction. The difference between us is I'm not pretending I'm something I'm not.
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
hypocrite
I'm glad you've heard a new word for the day Darius - but it really doesn't mean what you appear to think it does.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Bane Glorious
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Personally, I find that this level of discourse is beneath the decorum of the CSM, and I shall retire from further conversations until such personal attacks cease to pollute it. |
Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Hey Saint you missed the ban button. I'll give you a hint, it's the one you pressed on Darius for the same reason. I'll give you a second hint: You were wrong on both counts.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:20:00 -
[15]
Jade, this is what happens when you allow too much democracy.
DO YOU SEE?
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Maximus Imbecillus
Player Corporation 104
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:22:00 -
[16]
FREE DARIUS JOHNSON
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:31:00 -
[17]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:37:12
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:31:45
Originally by: Jade Constantine
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Such as?
BTW...thread is awesome....would read again.
**EDIT**Also....."transparency"...remember?
**EDIT**OP: No. Shitty corporate buzzwords probably won't translate well here given that they only make sense to those driven by synergistic leverage of existing paradigms and left to rot as roadkill on the information superhighway.
Huh?
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:40:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:41:56
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:31:45
Originally by: Jade Constantine
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Such as?
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Santaria Boon
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members. And that has only been made worse by the involvement of 3rd party partisan flamers and trolls through the process. These forums have not been a decent setting for debate since the election and your alliance (Goonswarm) has to bear a lot of responsibility for that.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
- Because your a bad poster.
- Because your a Troll.
- Because your role play a girl.
- Because you write :words:
There's probably lots more thou.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:10:00 -
[24]
Sigh, ah well, nobody can say I don't try to talk to you people.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Santaria Boon
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members. And that has only been made worse by the involvement of 3rd party partisan flamers and trolls through the process. These forums have not been a decent setting for debate since the election and your alliance (Goonswarm) has to bear a lot of responsibility for that.
The Goonswarm representatives on the council seem to be able to work with everyone else on the council. The other members on the council seem to be able to work fine with Goonswarm. The only person who seems to be unable to do anything in this regard is you.
Of course you'll never understand that or admit to that as it's your serial problem, but the facts are pretty plain for anyone looking at the process to see.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: KeratinBoy on 19/09/2008 21:25:20
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Generic you, not personal you.
Quote:
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Honestly, what you get up to in your personal life is of absolutely no interest to me. As to the rest, if you post sideswipes at a bunch of people more often than not, there's no point getting your knickers in a twist if that bunch of people throws a few swipes back.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.20 01:14:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 20/09/2008 01:18:57
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
Now now, I'm sure Star Fraction would understand if you laid off.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Rhetorical excess. If you think a phrase like "If you think that, then you have mental problems" is meant literally, you need to visit the Internet sometime.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Sigh, ah well, nobody can say I don't try to talk to you people.
You throw words at them, sure, but actual discussion? No way.
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Fix the forums! |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.20 01:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/09/2008 01:33:55
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
Which of course is fully defeated by your desire to be able to giggle and whisper in private.
And the folks you represent I'm sure appreciate being referred to as "partisan masses".
And of course comparing the CSM (and by extension-yourself) to the British government is a pretty good fantasy.
Oh...and transparency. Save the groping in smoke-filled rooms for your RP mates.
**EDIT**Eagerly awaiting LaVista slagging you off in true Janus-like fashion  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.20 13:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
So I take it you simply don't agree with the point that people play up to an audience of their mates in public and are generally more reasonable and open to negotiation when they are in a private conference with other delegates then?
Put it this way. In Iceland we had zero histrionics - zero personal attacks - zero trolling and flaming across the conference table in the formal meetings.
Sure part of that is that face to face people are far less outrageously insulting than they tend to be on the internet - but also because they are removed from the gaze and urgings of their mates they are able to function in a less combatant role.
This isn't alien technology and bizarre philosophical pipe-dream theory I'm telling you here. This is how human beings function, its how groups interact with groups.
Go and talk to a group of beered-up Arsenal fans on saturday night about the failings of their midfield game you'll get laughed at, you'll see group dynamics, hostility, hell, if it was Millwall fans you might get a serious kicking (especially if you were wearing some other team's shirt). But meet one of those guys on monday at work round the coffee machine you'd get an entirely different attitude and might even have a decent discussion.
People Play up to their mates. In eve you have a situation where that group of "mates" can be 5000 strong and you simply aren't going to get any kind of decent discussion with people playing up to 5000 partisan supporters against in-game enemies and hated rivals.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.20 15:52:00 -
[30]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/09/2008 15:53:59
Originally by: Jade Constantine
1-Put it this way. In Iceland we had zero histrionics - zero personal attacks - zero trolling and flaming across the conference table in the formal meetings.
2-This isn't alien technology and bizarre philosophical pipe-dream theory I'm telling you here. This is how human beings function, its how groups interact with groups.
1-In Iceland you all were there on an all-expense paid boondoggle with CCP's stars in your eyes. Of course you will be happy little friendly bunnies with CCP footing the beer bill, giving you tours, nodding sagely at your sugestions, and telling you "you really matter and will make a difference".
On return from Iceland-hello reality of not mattering. Nto to mention the outcome of certain discussions, votes, and statements made by yourself and others on the CSM.
2-The crap you run on about (and the corporate hogwash our schoolboy LV has recently discovered) is exactly why engineers, technicians, cops, firefighters, nurses, bricklayers, hod carriers, farmers et all will ALWAYS be more relevant and useful than you annoying double-speaking non-productive cerebral types otherwise known as marketing and communication types.
A hod carrier can turn around at any time and point to the building site rising out of nowhere from his hard work. All you corporate advisors, marketers, and related rubbish types are capable of is filling rooms with hot air, killing trees due to reams of analysis leading to coffee stains as corporate logo's, and hogging bandwidth on forums in some effort to make yourself appear relevant and important.
tl;dr?
Hod carriers>you.
And your inability to get along with others on the CSM is YOUR failure...not the fault of non-CSM outsiders.
Also...in case you missed it:
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
Which was the supposed original intent of the CSM. Trying to do "deals" without full view of the folks who play--and pay for--this game is utter bullshit and smacks of elitism.
**** yeah
**EDIT**Darius is right btw...read this again in case you missed it:
Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Word.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.20 16:00:00 -
[31]
Then we'll agree to disagree. End of story and pointless to continue debating it.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.20 21:05:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Arithron on 20/09/2008 21:05:53
There'd be no need to do 'deals' if the issues were discussed before getting to a voting meeting- actually, there'd be no need for discussion unless the ideas/issues were actually decent and well thought through first!
A lack of INFORMED discussion has resulted in the current situation in the CSM. Darius and Bane have had good opinions and input (maybe not often enough for some, see below), despite being accused of a multitude of sins. Personal issues with CSM members need to be put aside, and respect shown (I'm a believer in respect gaining respect) to other opinions.
I'm all for transparency in all CSM dealings. I've stated in other areas that the current tools work if you want them to work. Open discussion with players (which would inevitably involve some compromise or at least acknowledgment of opposing opinions) on issues would naturally seem a good idea if the CSM wants to be seen as working on behalf of all players. Thinking through issues and discussing their ramifications outside of voting meetings would also be seen as a positive thing to do (as issues reaching voting would be more refined and stand a better chance of successful escalation).
Personally, I'd work WITH anyone if voted onto the CSM- simply because we'd all be there to try and get player voices heard, and we might just all want to also see the game we love playing develop. If current CSM factions aren't participating, it's prolly due to a lack of respect shown or a lack of invitation to join in. Disregarding others simply because they have opposing or different viewpoints and opinions is just plain childish.
Expecting co-operation and all CSM members actively participating might be idealistic, but thats at least something to strive for.
Take care,
Bruce Hansen (Arithron)
Better to be a live dog than a dead lion... |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 21:11:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Then we'll agree to disagree. End of story and pointless to continue debating it.
ROFL...because you would prefer the CSM to morph into your own private little club where you can scheme away and then present the outcomes as a fait accompli to the rest of us only further proves Darius right.
Perhaps pointless to you...but transparency in your CSM dealings is NOT pointless to the rest of us   .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:55:00 -
[34]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
2-The crap you run on about (and the corporate hogwash our schoolboy LV has recently discovered) is exactly why engineers, technicians, cops, firefighters, nurses, bricklayers, hod carriers, farmers et all will ALWAYS be more relevant and useful than you annoying double-speaking non-productive cerebral types otherwise known as marketing and communication types.
A hod carrier can turn around at any time and point to the building site rising out of nowhere from his hard work. All you corporate advisors, marketers, and related rubbish types are capable of is filling rooms with hot air, killing trees due to reams of analysis leading to coffee stains as corporate logo's, and hogging bandwidth on forums in some effort to make yourself appear relevant and important.
tl;dr?
Hod carriers>you.
Hi, I currently work - but sadly unpaid - in the area of creative stuff that you can't exactly point to. I have been in a room with people who come across like Jade comes across in these forums. There was no moderation.
Why do you waste energy on a fruitless endeavour? Jade is never going to change the way Jade acts. Ignore the personal attacks, that's just how Jade is. Pay attention to the message, not the messenger and respond accordingly.
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Inanna Zuni
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Posted - 2008.09.21 10:17:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members.
AGAIN! Please stop misleading other pilots!
From what I have seen there is only the one member of the CSM who is - completely incorrectly - bring IG/IC issues into what should be an OOC/benefit-of-*all*-players environment.
The rest of us would like to get on with the task for which we were elected and represent *all* pilots in space. We've not had meetings the last few weeks as you couldn't lead and this hiatus ended when Ankh took the reins that you are unwilling to hold.
The CSM should be and *can* be a force for good in Eve. The attitude displayed here however is actively preventing that from happening. Work with everyone until the end of your term of office PLEASE>
Inanna Zuni
My principles
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Judas Jones
Amarr
Black Company
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bane Glorious
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Personally, I find that this level of discourse is beneath the decorum of the CSM, and I shall retire from further conversations until such personal attacks cease to pollute it.
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Trolling is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Personal attacks and trolling is not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=877824
You shoot, you score!!! OWN GOAL!!!
Standard's apply to all, not just to thoes you personally dislike, you have no bsuiness being a CSM if you can't make this distinction.
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Judas Jones
Amarr
Black Company
|
Posted - 2008.09.21 12:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Inanna Zuni
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members.
AGAIN! Please stop misleading other pilots!
From what I have seen there is only the one member of the CSM who is - completely incorrectly - bring IG/IC issues into what should be an OOC/benefit-of-*all*-players environment.
The rest of us would like to get on with the task for which we were elected and represent *all* pilots in space. We've not had meetings the last few weeks as you couldn't lead and this hiatus ended when Ankh took the reins that you are unwilling to hold.
The CSM should be and *can* be a force for good in Eve. The attitude displayed here however is actively preventing that from happening. Work with everyone until the end of your term of office PLEASE>
Inanna Zuni
Yeah , you condeming/belittling and attempting to isolate Jade in full view of the public, yet again, does what to strengthern peoples perception of the CSM? Do you even know how to communicate in private in a productive and civil manner?
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BillMurray
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Judas Jones
Do you even know how to communicate in private in a productive and civil manner?
Communicating in private from those you are representing is a privilege, not a right. The people you represent need to trust that you're going to make the right decisions behind closed doors, and if they can't see that in public first, where is that trust going to come from? Blind faith?
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 15:54:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
So I take it you simply don't agree with the point that people play up to an audience of their mates in public and are generally more reasonable and open to negotiation when they are in a private conference with other delegates then?
Put it this way. In Iceland we had zero histrionics - zero personal attacks - zero trolling and flaming across the conference table in the formal meetings.
Sure part of that is that face to face people are far less outrageously insulting than they tend to be on the internet - but also because they are removed from the gaze and urgings of their mates they are able to function in a less combatant role.
This isn't alien technology and bizarre philosophical pipe-dream theory I'm telling you here. This is how human beings function, its how groups interact with groups.
Go and talk to a group of beered-up Arsenal fans on saturday night about the failings of their midfield game you'll get laughed at, you'll see group dynamics, hostility, hell, if it was Millwall fans you might get a serious kicking (especially if you were wearing some other team's shirt). But meet one of those guys on monday at work round the coffee machine you'd get an entirely different attitude and might even have a decent discussion.
People Play up to their mates. In eve you have a situation where that group of "mates" can be 5000 strong and you simply aren't going to get any kind of decent discussion with people playing up to 5000 partisan supporters against in-game enemies and hated rivals.
The perceived-as-strange cooperation in Iceland you're referring to, while alluding to people acting as different personalities was a direct result of you behaving. Had you behaved in Iceland as you behave every other day I can guarantee Darius at the least and probably would have treated you the exact same way you are treated right now when you behave that way.
The theatrics are transparent and childish. One cannot throw rocks and not expect to get some tossed back in return. Nobody's going to pity that.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
Judas Jones
Amarr
Black Company
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 17:06:00 -
[40]
Originally by: BillMurray
Originally by: Judas Jones
Do you even know how to communicate in private in a productive and civil manner?
Communicating in private from those you are representing is a privilege, not a right. The people you represent need to trust that you're going to make the right decisions behind closed doors, and if they can't see that in public first, where is that trust going to come from? Blind faith?
Yeah becuase seeing the 'representatives' continuously bicker, back stab, *****, moan and generally being rude/condesending to each other for the entire "term" to the point where CSM "function" is overshadowed by it in full public view is a great way to enforce a sense of trust in there abilities and complishment's.
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 17:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Santaria Boon on 22/09/2008 17:21:47
Originally by: Judas Jones
Yeah becuase seeing the 'representatives' continuously bicker, back stab, *****, moan and generally being rude/condesending to each other for the entire "term" to the point where CSM "function" is overshadowed by it in full public view is a great way to enforce a sense of trust in there abilities and complishment's.
I like how you put representatives in quotes as if they're not... they are whether you like it or not. You have the power to remove them in the next cycle, but whether you like them and their actions or not they do, indeed represent you.
As far as not liking how they act in public that is certainly your purview, however I don't see how that has any bearing on their accomplishments.
It's a forum. If you don't like the posts don't read them. If you don't like the candidates don't vote for them. Bickering about them repeatedly and waving your hands just turns into sour grapes after a while.
I'll also note that lumping "all the representatives" in there is unfair and fallacious. Most of the CSM seems to get on just fine most of the time.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
Judas Jones
Amarr
Black Company
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 19:19:00 -
[42]
Try all you like but you don't 'represent' the majority of the 'people' when only 5% (or there abouts) of the people in total actually voted.
If they put the same energy into actually looking at the real issues and not just what affects there gameplay style only on the same scale to which they have *****ed, moaned, backstabbed etc... and tried to re-define the CSM as a whole, then perhaps fewer of the people who actually bothered to vote last time would not feel completely let down and never bother to vote for this nonesense again.
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 19:57:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Judas Jones
Try all you like but you don't 'represent' the majority of the 'people' when only 5% (or there abouts) of the people in total actually voted.
If they put the same energy into actually looking at the real issues and not just what affects there gameplay style only on the same scale to which they have *****ed, moaned, backstabbed etc... and tried to re-define the CSM as a whole, then perhaps fewer of the people who actually bothered to vote last time would not feel completely let down and never bother to vote for this nonesense again.
They had their opportunity to participate and they chose not to, therefore their representatives are not whom they may necessarily have chosen, but like it or not they are indeed their representatives. Nothing you say or post will change that, nor will any degree of bitter footstomping.
To the contrary I expect a much better voter turnout the next cycle and only time will prove me right or wrong. Also, if you have a problem with your representative you should take it up with them. Nobody's going to pity you simply because your pet issue hasn't yet been covered.
To be frank, in your entire post all I see is sour grapes that has very little meat regarding the actual functioning of the CSM. The CSM had to do some definition because it wasn't provided with any. The next CSM will do the same. Instead of crying I'd recommend you mobilize and do something about ensuring it lives up to your standards.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.09.22 20:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Judas Jones
Try all you like but you don't 'represent' the majority of the 'people' when only 5% (or there abouts) of the people in total actually voted.
I utterly despise this argument. As long as you had the right to vote and the ability to do so practically, a decision not to vote is an abdication of responsibility - you are accepting the results that the rest of the electorate chooses to give you. There is truth in the old maxim of "If you didn't vote, you can't complain". Or, if you prefer Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".
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Fix the forums! |
SOFcode Z777
Caldari
Human Enhancement Tech.
|
Posted - 2008.09.23 16:53:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Judas Jones
Yeah, you condeming/belittling and attempting to isolate Jade in full view of the public, yet again, does what to strengthern peoples perception of the CSM? Do you even know how to communicate in private in a productive and civil manner?
This.
And:
CSM fails as a project. It came to light as a good concept, like so many other concepts that looks good at paper and crap when it comes to practical appliance.
It didn't work. I don't buy the crap that it didn't work because it was x or y players there doing all the wrong stuff. CSM will never work because it's proven to be totaly worthless for what it was created and brings the worst on people.
The ammount of pressure and judgement that those players have to endure to copy and paste a few forum posts so devs can't bother to take a few minutes of their days to look at, it's just appaling.
When the community have something to say, they say it. Things didn't change and won't change because CSM exists. When DEVs wants to act prompty regarding an issue, they will, independent of CSM taking their times to be wasted in countless meetings and enduring players harrassement here.
Dissolve CSM, brush it under the carpet as one of many failed concepts everywhere and that is all it takes to move on. Players will get back to be players defending their own agendas, discussions, etc, and issues will continue to be spoken between player base and ccp as they always were.
Originally by: Avon
Realising that BoB would certainly take over 0.0, CCP wisely added factional warfare so that we don't get bored and can subsequently take over Empire space too. |
Judas Jones
Amarr
Black Company
|
Posted - 2008.09.23 23:06:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Judas Jones
Try all you like but you don't 'represent' the majority of the 'people' when only 5% (or there abouts) of the people in total actually voted.
I utterly despise this argument. As long as you had the right to vote and the ability to do so practically, a decision not to vote is an abdication of responsibility - you are accepting the results that the rest of the electorate chooses to give you. There is truth in the old maxim of "If you didn't vote, you can't complain". Or, if you prefer Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".
I utterly despise this arguement, to assume people paid any attention to the forums or the In-Game news is laughable. The actual majority just log on and play the damm game and I'd wager most won't even know what a CSM is if you asked. Let's face it, with the exception of maybe the Factional Warfare Downtime, the in-games news is mostly junk and is worthy of being ignored (un-ended stories, biased news, same old same old).
The CSM represent nothing more than the forum *****s, and the forums are definately not what they used to be, if I didn't have nostalgic memories of the community in 2004 and joined in 2008 and took at the sheer amount of shite here now, well, I would not of bothered voting either.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.24 01:20:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Judas Jones
I utterly despise this arguement, to assume people paid any attention to the forums or the In-Game news is laughable. The actual majority just log on and play the damm game and I'd wager most won't even know what a CSM is if you asked. Let's face it, with the exception of maybe the Factional Warfare Downtime, the in-games news is mostly junk and is worthy of being ignored (un-ended stories, biased news, same old same old).
The CSM represent nothing more than the forum *****s, and the forums are definately not what they used to be, if I didn't have nostalgic memories of the community in 2004 and joined in 2008 and took at the sheer amount of shite here now, well, I would not of bothered voting either.
11% of players voted - something over 20k of them. Given the nature of in-corp communication, the fact that it was being spammed mercilessly upon login for two weeks, and the fact that most people don't care about elections of this nature(and a massive number don't care about elections of any nature), I'd say that we can safely assume at least a 70-80% penetration rate. Your (often valid) complaints about in-game news aside, people do read it, because there aren't 20,000 forum *****s, even if you include alts(for that matter, WoW probably doesn't have 20,000 forum *****s). But ultimately, my opinion is the same - the electoral body(CCP) ran an information campaign to the best of their reasonable abilities, and information was available to all those who looked for it. If you chose not to vote, then it's your fault, and if you live under a rock then we can't do anything for you. I might feel a bit of sympathy towards the latter group, but it does not render the process illegitimate.
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Fix the forums! |
Drake Draconis
|
Posted - 2008.09.29 18:34:00 -
[48]
I felt I needed to indicate something in the midst of this stupid mud slinging match that has utterly no purpose in general and is vastly damaging to CSM's purpose which is anything but political.
There is no such thing as a true democracy. Only the corrupted kind...or partial.. or biased..or whatever.
There never was is or will be.
Am I against such a thing? No....
but you people need to understand that your definition of a Democracy is very greatly biased..if not overlooking a few things.
A democracy in its root meaning is a government or group controlled by the people.
1 Vote 1 Person etc..etc..etc.
At least that's where it originated.
However... people only think that far and forget the rest.
The part your missing is a very big problem.
1: Your assuming that everyone thinks like you do and will do the same thing.
2: Your assuming that everyone has the ability to choose right from wrong. (Discernment)
3: Your assuming that everyone has the maturity to cast his or her vote without error.
4: Your assuming that everyone gives a rip what you think.
5: Your assuming that everyone has everyone in there best interests or for the "big picture"
6: Your assuming that everyone has the same background needs and wants and hates that you do!
At that point you get only one thing.
Total and utter anarchy... just nicely wrapped up in a little bow and ribbon... under the cover of "voting" and "politics"
Sorry there's no "perfect" form of Government... either one is benevolent or malevolent.
You have to work with what you get... so don't pass judgment without making sure your free of error as well.
Everyone in EVE is pretty much looking out for number 1.... or something to that effect.
Some are nicer than others.
All I see here is a bunch of Goon's banging there war drum (which they are rather good at with there numbers in the thousands) but doing nothing to resolve the problem.
No offense to you goons of course.
On the other hand I see Jade who obviously ****ed off too many people and chewed off more than he can handle..... that's normal for most people.... but instead of moving on he's choosing to throw gas on the fire. When in fact he should be seeking to resolve instead of responding to this tripe.
Did he make mistakes? I'm not sure honestly... but this isn't getting anyone anywhere either.
And a bunch of people who obviously see whats going on and aren't foolish to make it worse... but they get drowned out/ignored/trounced/war'deced and everything else in the mix for "having an opinion"
This won't stop the people who have no common sense of brains...let alone anything better to do then continue to throw a fit and complain and whine instead of taking action by resolving the issue in some form other than negative-isms.... something constructive.
I've been running teams in online gaming for over 15 years... while I know my weakness (Temper... quick to jump at times..etc..etc)I also know when there's a no win situation.. and this is one of them.
That's why I'm going to vote.... the system may be busted.... corrupted if you will... but at least IM DOING SOMETHING other than throwing mud around for some mistake(s) that where made or wheren't made or things needing doing.
So keep this in mind people.... when you rant and rave.... you can be part of the group that yells... or you can be part of the group that does something constructive.... or worse yet... be a part of the gorup that doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything but themselves and what they want as opposed to the greater good.
As to what that great good needs?
Good luck... because you won't find it in this topic... that takes communication and work.
And that's why Jade said what he said in reference to the smoke filled rooms.
The only way CSM gets anything done...is in peace and quiet.
So you can attempt to resolve that...or make it worse.
The choice is yours. Good or bad... don't complain....instead do something constructive about it.
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Digital Solaris
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Posted - 2008.10.06 07:25:00 -
[49]
I, for one, welcome the second season of CSM. Just imagine all the drama that will ensue!
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 20:36:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
A democracy in its root meaning is a government or group controlled by the people.
1 Vote 1 Person etc..etc..etc.
At least that's where it originated.
The ancient Greek form of democracy (where it originated) was indeed like that - but the definition of 'demos' (the people) was pretty narrow. It did not include women, slaves, foreigners, mad people... in fact, to a greater or lesser degree it basically covered individuals conforming to points 1 through 6 in your post 
The modern form of democracy may have widened the definition of 'demos', but it is probably more appealing to and more open to corruption by self-serving individuals than many other forms of government.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
The ancient Greek form of democracy (where it originated) was indeed like that - but the definition of 'demos' (the people) was pretty narrow. It did not include women, slaves, foreigners, mad people... in fact, to a greater or lesser degree it basically covered individuals conforming to points 1 through 6 in your post
The modern form of democracy may have widened the definition of 'demos', but it is probably more appealing to and more open to corruption by self-serving individuals than many other forms of government.
The insane still can't vote, and the only country I know of that allows even nominal foreigners to vote is the United Kingdom, where apparently they consider resident colonials to not really be foreigners. Also, I'd wager that you won't find any slaves voting in the present day either.
As for the susceptibility to the self-serving, I disagree entirely. Power corrupts, famously, but power attracts the corrupt just as well, and it always has. Whether you're a flatterer in the royal court, a warlord conquering for personal glory(read: ale and women), an intriguing noble, or any of the thousand other varieties of corrupt power-seekers in history, including lying politicians, you're going to find a way to seek power. The difference is, a lying politician can screw you over less with it, because you can vote him out again in a few years.
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Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.10.06 22:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Lia Gaeren
The ancient Greek form of democracy (where it originated) was indeed like that - but the definition of 'demos' (the people) was pretty narrow. It did not include women, slaves, foreigners, mad people... in fact, to a greater or lesser degree it basically covered individuals conforming to points 1 through 6 in your post
The modern form of democracy may have widened the definition of 'demos', but it is probably more appealing to and more open to corruption by self-serving individuals than many other forms of government.
The insane still can't vote, and the only country I know of that allows even nominal foreigners to vote is the United Kingdom, where apparently they consider resident colonials to not really be foreigners. Also, I'd wager that you won't find any slaves voting in the present day either.
As for the susceptibility to the self-serving, I disagree entirely. Power corrupts, famously, but power attracts the corrupt just as well, and it always has. Whether you're a flatterer in the royal court, a warlord conquering for personal glory(read: ale and women), an intriguing noble, or any of the thousand other varieties of corrupt power-seekers in history, including lying politicians, you're going to find a way to seek power. The difference is, a lying politician can screw you over less with it, because you can vote him out again in a few years.
Depends on your definition of insanity.
Anyone and everyone votes in this day and age..... the standards of whats considered foreign...and insane.... are not where you think they are.
And "Voting them out" in a few years... is a few years too many.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:02:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 06/10/2008 23:07:14
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Depends on your definition of insanity.
Anyone and everyone votes in this day and age..... the standards of whats considered foreign...and insane.... are not where you think they are.
And "Voting them out" in a few years... is a few years too many.
Insanity is defined far more narrowly these days than in years past, but if you're involuntarily institutionalized for mental illness, say, I'm pretty sure you don't get to vote(although I haven't looked into it, so it's possible that somewhere a legislature themselves in need of involuntary institutionalization has extended the right to those people). Foreign I define as "not a citizen", using whatever the legal definition of citizenship is locally, and as I said, I'm pretty sure it's only the UK that allows non-citizens to vote, and even then they're not really "foreigners" in the same sense, being subjects of Her Majesty resident in the UK.
As for it being a few years too many, sometimes it really can be(which is why I'm a huge proponent of recall legislation in real life), but I'd rather live under a bad elected leader for a few years than a bad unelected leader for his lifetime. Say what I will about someone like Jimmy Carter, I'd take him over a Castro, Kim, *******, Mugabe, or their ilk any day of the week.
Edit: Seriously, I can't use the name of the recently-hanged Iraqi dictator? I can understand the German one, given the ubiquity that led to Godwin's Law, but SH was a piker compared to uncensored Stalin or Mao.
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Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
KAELA MENSHA
|
Posted - 2008.10.12 17:17:00 -
[54]
This CSM will be just as fubar as the last one.
because the big alliance's, have to much influence.
Every idea, is viewed towards maintaining the status quo.
new player corp's and single account players are strangled, which is why so many fail or leave the game.
This as got to be the hardest game to get a start in, unless you have a mentor and or previous experience.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.10.13 00:45:00 -
[55]
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA
Edited by: KAELA MENSHA on 12/10/2008 17:45:58
This CSM will be just as fubar as the last one.
because the big alliance's, have to much influence.
Every idea, is viewed towards maintaining the status quo.
new player corp's and single account players are strangled, which is why so many fail or leave the game.
This as got to be the hardest game to get a start in, unless you have a mentor and or previous experience.
The role of the CSM should be to promote the game, NOT private or corp/alliance agenders
Big alliances you say? Well yeah, there's two Goons on there, but the others are from CVA, Star Fraction, Ivy League, Electus Matari, the Ministry of Information, the Conservative Shenanigans Party, and the Federal Defense Union. Only four of those are even real player-run organizations(two are tiny shells, one is a NPC corp), and only one of the seven has any sovereignty. And on top of that, the Chair is about the most anti-status-quo person I can think of - he got elected on flipping 0.0 upside-down, and has repeatedly brought forward suggestions for doing so and successfully passed them through the Council. And while I admit that I'm not privy to their internal debates, I've never heard any of them say anything about being anti-change, or about deciding that they were going to vote against something because it would negatively effect them personally. Human nature being what it is, there's probably been a bit of self-delusion on that last score, but it's still been quite good on the whole.
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Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
KAELA MENSHA
|
Posted - 2008.10.13 00:53:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: KAELA MENSHA
Edited by: KAELA MENSHA on 12/10/2008 17:45:58
This CSM will be just as fubar as the last one.
because the big alliance's, have to much influence.
Every idea, is viewed towards maintaining the status quo.
new player corp's and single account players are strangled, which is why so many fail or leave the game.
This as got to be the hardest game to get a start in, unless you have a mentor and or previous experience.
The role of the CSM should be to promote the game, NOT private or corp/alliance agenders
Big alliances you say? Well yeah, there's two Goons on there, but the others are from CVA, Star Fraction, Ivy League, Electus Matari, the Ministry of Information, the Conservative Shenanigans Party, and the Federal Defense Union. Only four of those are even real player-run organizations(two are tiny shells, one is a NPC corp), and only one of the seven has any sovereignty. And on top of that, the Chair is about the most anti-status-quo person I can think of - he got elected on flipping 0.0 upside-down, and has repeatedly brought forward suggestions for doing so and successfully passed them through the Council. And while I admit that I'm not privy to their internal debates, I've never heard any of them say anything about being anti-change, or about deciding that they were going to vote against something because it would negatively effect them personally. Human nature being what it is, there's probably been a bit of self-delusion on that last score, but it's still been quite good on the whole.
Good then
Because isn't that the way things should be.
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