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Binarii
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Posted - 2008.09.18 09:06:00 -
[1]
I am planning to start a new character aiming for Force/Combat recon ships. What race/ship would be good to aim for (six-eigth months from now) if I want to primarily fly in a small gang pvp in 0.0 and sometimes go solo?
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Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.09.18 09:10:00 -
[2]
Amarr - Curse
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Binarii
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Posted - 2008.09.18 09:17:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr - Curse
I know this has "always" been a popular choice, but my fear is that it is getting "too popular" and getting in line for the nerf bat before I get ready to even get into one.. How will the Curse fare after the speednerf arrives?
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Naridos
Caldari
Dawn of Fire
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Posted - 2008.09.18 09:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Binarii
Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr - Curse
I know this has "always" been a popular choice, but my fear is that it is getting "too popular" and getting in line for the nerf bat before I get ready to even get into one.. How will the Curse fare after the speednerf arrives?
All i can say is screw the speed nerf. We dont need it and CCP need to put away the nerf bat or else the only thing left to nerf is local itself.
Quote:
You Know you play too much Eve when you get into a car crash and you run away as fast as you can so that you don't get podded.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Binarii
How will the Curse fare after the speednerf arrives?
It's hard to say. Obviously it will be slower than before, as will all ships. But to be honest, with the neuts and tracking disruptors I'm not really seeing its target selection being that different. Anything faster than it can probably be shut down with a few medium neut cycles, which will still reach out to near 40km (or past that with faction). And while in theory it's easier to track for turrets, small and medium turrets still won't have the range with range-scripted TDs on them, and large turrets won't have the tracking with tracking-scripted TDs. Cruise or heavy missile ships are somewhat of a problem right now, and though we don't know how missiles are going to rebalance, I would imagine this will stay roughly the same.
So actually, while the Curse will get slower in absolute terms, everything else will get slower too, and its ability to dictate range and disable turrets + cap-using modules will be just as good. I see it still being viable (one med neut still insta-caps out frigates, too, in case a tough and now-speedy AF gets a web on you), though judgement will be withheld until the actual changes come out.
Web + scram changes make an AB Pilgrim look very nice too, so training Amarr recons might still be worth it if the Curse turns out not to be too effective...
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:15:00 -
[6]
The obvious answer:
Falcon if you want pure ewar. No debate here, the Falcon is the best pure ewar ship in the game. However, that's the ONLY thing it can do.
Arazu if you want solo ability. While somewhat lacking in damage compared to the Curse, it has much better defense against missile ships (what's the most popular ratting ship?), and 48km+ scram range allows you to easily disengage if things go badly (such as the target's friends showing up).
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Web + scram changes make an AB Pilgrim look very nice too, so training Amarr recons might still be worth it if the Curse turns out not to be too effective...
No they don't. Post-patch, the Pilgrim will have exactly one useful setup, and it's the same one it has right now: cargo expanders, cargo rigs, and a covert ops cloak.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/09/2008 12:24:45
Curse will die just like the pilgrim did. The only reason the curse didnt die after nos+drone nerfs is because it was nanoable. Take that away and you can reprocess your curse together with your pilgrim. Btw if you didnt know, nano nerf is coming soon.
In short: Dont train curse.
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[Video] Support Barrage |
Binarii
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:32:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Binarii on 18/09/2008 12:32:42
Thanks for the feedback so far. I am starting to look towards Minmatar at the moment, having read up a bit on the Rapier and Huginn. I will admit that I know very little about recon ships though, what are the main difference between Force recon and Combat recon, is combat recon basically the same ship with more punch or does Force recon have its own uses?
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.18 12:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Binarii
Edited by: Binarii on 18/09/2008 12:32:42
Thanks for the feedback so far. I am starting to look towards Minmatar at the moment, having read up a bit on the Rapier and Huginn. I will admit that I know very little about recon ships though, what are the main difference between Force recon and Combat recon, is combat recon basically the same ship with more punch or does Force recon have its own uses?
Force recon: covert ops cloak, and useful.
Combat recon: no cloak, and not useful. The only exception is the pre-nerf Curse, and only because the Pilgrim sucks so much.
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Yoko Lee
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.18 13:01:00 -
[10]
Pilgrim dont suck, it's one of my favorite ship, work nice for me.
Just cloack recon work nice? no, falcon better than rook its oki...curse and huginn work like a charm.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.18 13:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Yoko Lee
Pilgrim dont suck, it's one of my favorite ship, work nice for me.
Just cloack recon work nice? no, falcon better than rook its oki...curse and huginn work like a charm.
1) The Pilgrim sucks, and insta-dies against anything other than clueless ratters. And even there, a passive Drake (the most common ratting ship) or Raven will effortlessly kill a Pilgrim, as long as the missile boat pilot can figure out how to hit F1-F8 (and they probably will, by blind luck once all of the rats are dead, and the Pilgrim is next on the overview).
2) The Huginn sucks even more than the Pilgrim. It's a Rapier with no cloak and a tiny bit of extra damage. The extra damage does not help very much, anything that can tank a Rapier can tank a Huginn as well, and losing the covert ops cloak is way too high a price to pay.
3) The Curse is only good because it gets a massively overpowered nano setup, while the Pilgrim is the worst recon. It doesn't take much to be useful when your only competition might as well be an Ibis.
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Yoko Lee
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.18 16:40:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Yoko Lee on 18/09/2008 16:41:02
I use my pilgrim with gang and work really good, i never lose it. I love scout with it too and attack some cruiser (solo), its not the uber ship, but its a recon not a hac.
My friends use huggin (war empire for example) work very nice, there aren't one way to play, don't forget that maybe.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.09.19 12:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
The only reason the curse didnt die after nos+drone nerfs is because it was nanoable. Take that away and you can reprocess your curse together with your pilgrim.
Yeah, but the changes probably won't take that away. If the Curse is fast enough to dictate range on potentially dangerous ships now, then with a blanket reduction in speed it will still be fast enough to dictate range. AFs could be potentially problematic with their higher speed, but a single medium neut will shut them down (as with all frigate-sized ships). The lower absolute speed will probably mean more damage taken from missiles (though missile balance is being looked at and still unclear), but as for engaging turret ships nothing will change here. Small and medium turrets will still not have the range to hit you (and their ships won't have the speed to close range on you), and I very much doubt that tracking-disrupted large turrets will suddenly start hitting a Curse doing 2.5km/s instead of 3.5km/s.
The only areas in which I can see the Curse getting notably worse, are facing missile ships if the missile balancing still results in them doing more damage against a similar fit; and burning out to long range ships e.g. Falcons, as it will take longer to cover the same absolute distance. For everything else, a uniform decrease in speeds should not adversely affect the Curse as much as other ships.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.09.19 12:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
a passive Drake (the most common ratting ship) or Raven will effortlessly kill a Pilgrim, as long as the missile boat pilot can figure out how to hit F1-F8.
That's true. The Pilgrim has to select targets, and given that its neut + TD bonuses do nothing to a passive Drake, you'd have to be insane to deliberately decide to engage one. It's not vastly different from saying that a close-range battleship will die to a long-range one if the targets start far away and neither can warp out (bubbles, or whatever). It doesn't make short-range battleships suck, it just means that they don't have the ability to do everything well, and were caught in a situation where they were at a disadvantage.
Except battleships don't get the ability to fit a Covops cloak and pick their fights. 
Quote:
The Curse is only good because it gets a massively overpowered nano setup, while the Pilgrim is the worst recon. It doesn't take much to be useful when your only competition might as well be an Ibis.
Comparing the Pilgrim to an Ibis is just hyperbole and doesn't make any sense as an argument. It's at least better than an Arbitrator - same bonuses, same dronebay/bandwidth, more slots, more resists, neut bonuses, covops cloak...
I very much get the impression you don't like the Pilgrim, but emotional offhand responses aren't a good way to assess its validity.
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supr3m3justic3
Caldari
ACE'S OVER 8'S
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Posted - 2008.09.19 18:17:00 -
[15]
I'll take on a curse in my rook any day....just because yall all use a cookie cutter set up for ur ships doesnt make all the other one's you dont use useless...
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:03:00 -
[16]
who knows how eve will be 8 months from now?
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:29:00 -
[17]
Edited by: AstroPhobic on 19/09/2008 21:29:38
Originally by: P'uck
who knows how eve will be 8 months from now?
Basically this.
Training for one race's recons is a crapshoot at best - though I think it's safe to say that the minmatar recons just recently got their nerf, so they're not looking at either a nerf or a boost in the near future. Gallente recons have been lacking for a bit, if they prove to be useful with scram/speed changes, they'll be a good choice, or if they don't, they're probably next in line for a boost.
ECM seems to be the logical post-nano whine, so you may or may not see a nerf. I'm guessing an indirect nerf as in all ships sensor str getting increased, or ECCM effectiveness increased, or sensor str rigs.
Amarr recons have had a lot changed recently, though I can say right now TD bonused ships are not going to be that bad off. Since all of you seem so keen to run around in afterburner setups post nerf (yeah right  ), tracking will be all the more important. In actuality, it's the web nerf that boosted TD effectiveness, or at least usefulness. If the amarr recons get some tanking love (which they don't deserve, honestly, every other recon runs on buffer too), or the pilgrim gets it's long deserved range bonus, I'd say they're quite usable. But i've never used them so take my comments with a grain of salt.
Choose the one for which you like the HACs/HIC/Logistics/CS best. It only takes some racial EWAR skills and cruiser 5 to hop aboard the next race (1 - 1.5mo), so I doubt there's any real "bad" choice.
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