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Blizzard wins against Bot Creator

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Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 16:03:00 - [1] I know it's for WoW, but in my defense, I found this on my D3 site http://www.diii.net/n/697021/blizzard-win-damages-against-bot-creator _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 16:03:00 - [2] I know it's for WoW, but in my defense, I found this on my D3 site http://www.diii.net/n/697021/blizzard-win-damages-against-bot-creator _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.10.01 16:46:00 - [3] now CCP needs to do it against the hundreds of bot creators / sellers to end macro mining Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Marie Duvolle United Sentients	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:00:00 - [4] That's a good start Don't stir the hornet's nest
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:01:00 - [5] Good for them. - DesuSigs
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:44:00 - [6] Are there actually bots that are that advanced for EVE? Don't have any intention of acquiring any... just a point of interest. It seems like it would be a bit more difficult to accomplish, because unlike WoW, EVE isn't really controlled mainly by the keyboard... if that makes sense to anyone? I mean... yeah, you've got some hot keys... your weapons/modules... some for the drones, some that can be set for autopilot and stuff... but docking? Shifting around cargo? I just didn't think it was possible for people to find an easy way around that.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:45:00 - [7] Yes, there are. Some are pretty dern advanced, and one doesn't need keyboard only control to make an effective bot. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:56:00 - [8] Well, I mean... I understand that it's not needed. But I figured the difficulty that replicating mouse input would entail would deter anyone from trying. Then again, I guess there was someone as curious as me out there who felt they needed to proove a point. Does anyone know how it works? Like... do they actualy replicate mouse input, or do they try to go one step further, and just directly manipulate the client's utilized memory? (Yes, I realize this could raise flags about me, but since I wouldn't ever actually make or use bots, I don't have anything to be afraid of.)
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:00:00 - [9] I don't see how this worked legally. How does a EULA prevent you from making and selling software. If the EULA says you can't use blah and blah software, what does that have to do with Glider making it and/or selling it. It's not malicious software like a virus, so I don't see how blizzard has any grounds here. I think this is gonna get appealed. You can't sue me for making aimbot for a game, it's just ridiculous. What's next? Blizzard sues logitech keyboards cause they have macro keys?
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:02:00 - [10] I know some of it has to do with perimeters, which I've seen in many games. Say a macro miner hits the belt. The program notices the nearest asteroid is 20km and automatically directs the ship there. The same applies for the macro hauler. In this case they'll mine your asteroid right out from under you in minutes. In other games like wow or whatever they appear to be a little more sophisticated. It registers the nearest enemy but I found that if you attack that enemy they move off. You can actually lead a bot into a bad area by doing this where hilarity ensues.
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:19:00 - [11] That's the part that boggles my mind... I want to know how they get that information for the game to process... screen shots and text recognition seems like it would be too processing heavy. Hah... ah well. The more I poke into this the more curious I'll get, I think.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:36:00 - [12] large, complex, if statements. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:42:00 - [13] I doubt they'd leave it down to chained Ifs... that's usually incredibly inefficient when you're dealing with something like that. It would be selection/break statements for the most part. Although, that's probably centric to the language, but you'd still be restricted... given a need to access system memory (theoretically), and a need to manipulate screen input, a C language would probably be the best bet. Anyways... generally speaking, if's are crap when you have to make one of 50 decisions, because the code generally looks at your nested If's one at a time. "X was or was not correct, so go to resolution A or B. At resolution A or B, is X the case? X is or is not the case, so to go resolution A or B..." etc. Although it's not a very clear example, maybe that paints out the danger of nested ifs? A select/break statement (neither is the proper word, I don't think... but it's a break statement in Java, and I think Case in either C or VB) is much more efficient in terms of processing time. That still doesn't tell me how they get to the data, anyways, which is my only curiosity at this point. Automating behaviour once you have the data and methods of control would be simple. And I know how I'd control it for the most part... it's just the acquisition of the data. But damn... that makes me look like I'm gonna build one of those. personally invites the Investigatey people to investigatize him whenever they need to
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:46:00 - [14] I know, I was oversimplifying the whole ordeal. :) But, if you spend some time on macro research, you'd be surprised about how much of the shell applications are already built. Some are freeware, but some of the commercial ones (my company uses one for automation purposes) are spectacular in not only what they can emulate, but also what they can respond to. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 19:48:00 - [15] Ohhhh, okay, I gotcha. Sometimes I just like to clarify things like that for people, because I remember I point when I started programming where I thought everything was delightfully simple.... then I got into the working world. Not quite so simple there. Ha ha ha. Ohhhh, so most of these guys that make the bots kind of cheat and stand on other peoples' shoulders, then? That's wicked, because of any of the stuff they use is open source, I can fully satisfy my curiosity and never have to ask these sorts of questions again. :D Thanks for the info!!
Ryysa Paisti	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:27:00 - [16] Edited by: Ryysa on 01/10/2008 20:36:02 Mh. Getting data is easy. There are some ways, I will by no means list all of them. 1) Sniff network data - this is the best, no need to hack the client etc. However, they change netcode every now and then. Last time I looked (and that was ~2 years ago), all of the information sent over the wire could be decoded into python method calls - find a pattern to them, and you have a grade A bot. It's more complicated than that, but if I managed to reverse-engineer local joins/parts and getting ID-s from that to create a character name => ID database for a killboard (was needed back then to display portraits on the KB), I can imagine that someone specializing in the stuff can EASILY use and abuse a lot more data. 2) Inject python code - since the decompiled client control stack leaked (and even a lot before), it has always been possible to inject random python code into the client. That makes things even easier - use CCP's own API to control the game. Of course, this could land you in court, since you are actually modifying their IP and heavily breaching copyright - as the WoW case shows. 3) Hook DirectX calls - this is a very basic method. Hook DirectX api calls and process the information that gets drawn. It has many legitimate uses, such as displaying information overlays, debugging, analyzing bottlenecks. This is for example how fraps works. However, as with all methods, you can turn this to evil. 4) Hook Client memory - this is more advanced than the previous method, and more detectable also than a generic DirectX hook or python injection. I can see of no legitimate use for this... I'm pretty sure there are more ways I didn't think of. Only the 2nd method is EvE specific and all methods except the 1st method involve hacking the client. Hacking the client is very evil. Not sure if sniffing traffic is against eula, but since reading cache files wasn't, I can only assume that sniffing traffic isn't either. That said. A bot is feeding data back into the client that isn't user controlled. And I don't think it would be simulating mouse input. Again, that's why the Glider creator got in trouble. It was due to copyright infringement, when you edit the program in memory to add additional unintended functionality, you infringe copyright. Bad. And he charged money for that. Very bad. I hope this information doesn't offend the overlords of this forum, I tried to present it as neutrally as possible, and I am strongly against hacking the EvE client or using any other means to gain an unfair advantage. If it does however, please moderate my post. EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:22:00 - [17] bleh just use ACTool, it has nice scripting and some image recognition functions
Havok Dryke The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:11:00 - [18] Good. I hate WOW, but I hate "cheaters" more. --- Originally by: El'tar I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:23:00 - [19] I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't see why macros are immoral or why they should be illegal. It's my computer, dammit. I'll run what I like on my computer thankyouverymuch. Selling gold, sure... it's not my property, but the property of the company in question. However, my computer is my property and I'm not comfortable giving any other person rights over what programs I can use to capture data on my own computer.
NeoShocker Caldari Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:17:00 - [20] Edited by: NeoShocker on 02/10/2008 02:24:33 Originally by: Mr Friendly I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't see why macros are immoral or why they should be illegal. It's my computer, dammit. I'll run what I like on my computer thankyouverymuch. Selling gold, sure... it's not my property, but the property of the company in question. However, my computer is my property and I'm not comfortable giving any other person rights over what programs I can use to capture data on my own computer. Of course, but the game is GAME DEVELOPERS' property, and they can do whatever they want with it. You basically can do whatever you want with the game, as long it doesn't violate EULA. BEFORE you install the said game, you AGREE to follow said rules/EULA. So whether it is your computer or not, its irrelavent, you agree to their rules by installing. EULA can be complicated, but there are things that companies violate the users as well, like this for example. ----------------------------------- Peace through power!
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.02 04:47:00 - [21] Score one for the players. i will note that i have never read a single EULA ever. mostly because they tend to be packed with lawyer speak vs real language. that said i know that ALL mmorpg eulas are the same, "we can pretty much terminate your account at anytime so dont be a jackass or a cheater"
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.10.02 05:51:00 - [22] This is good. It's just strange that not even CCP realizes that Shattered crystal actually used to SELL this thing for the longest time. It's beyond me why CCP is still doing business with these guys
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:40:00 - [23] to answer a question- I have seen bots for EVE before that are pretty advanced. When I ninja salvage I often come across macro'd mission runners running missions. I also happen to know that there are macro salvagers, who tractor beam, salvage, and loot everything but the cap booster charges. Sounds wierd when you think about it, but not impossible.
B0rn2KiLL Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.02 09:02:00 - [24] Originally by: LaVista Vista This is good. It's just strange that not even CCP realizes that Shattered crystal actually used to SELL this thing for the longest time. It's beyond me why CCP is still doing business with these guys It's Business. --- Originally by: Oveur It's important to understand that EVE is a "PvP" focused game
Rana Ash Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.02 09:57:00 - [25] I will never understand why people buy a game, and then gets programs to play the game for them. When i buy a game i want to play it myself, not have something else do it for me. lyret dedreen
Callib Gor'Karrithe Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Ryysa Edited by: Ryysa on 01/10/2008 20:36:02 Mh. Getting data is easy. There are some ways, I will by no means list all of them. Lots of freaking AWESOME information I hope this information doesn't offend the overlords of this forum, I tried to present it as neutrally as possible, and I am strongly against hacking the EvE client or using any other means to gain an unfair advantage. If it does however, please moderate my post. Thanks so much!! That's EXACTLY what I was looking for. :) Now I don't even need to poke around any longer to satisfy my curiosity. You've satisfied it without all the hard work. Many thanks, again! :) And you're right... hacking the client IS very evil. In most countries it also happens to be illegal, because the most efficient way of doing that is decompiling as much of it as possible... and in a lot of countries the mere possession of a decompiler can put you in jail... and applying that decompiler to commercial code (although the client itself is free, it's still "commercial") is expressly illegal if you get caught. Anyways, thanks again for the info. The only method I'd really thought of was going directly into the memory... but I'm mainly an application programmer, not games and the like... which only makes me more curious about the stuff that I'm not well versed in (game making).
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.02 22:03:00 - [27] ive always wanted a decompiler for fun. here in the US using one on a game client they could strike with the DMCA. this story honestly shocked me though, i didnt think the DMCA had a use at all but i guess like piles of shit, when thrown accurately it has a use...
Hesod Adee Perkone	Posted - 2008.10.02 22:21:00 - [28] Edited by: Hesod Adee on 02/10/2008 22:22:14 Originally by: Rialtor I don't see how this worked legally. How does a EULA prevent you from making and selling software. If the EULA says you can't use blah and blah software, what does that have to do with Glider making it and/or selling it. It's not malicious software like a virus, so I don't see how blizzard has any grounds here. I think this is gonna get appealed. You can't sue me for making aimbot for a game, it's just ridiculous. What's next? Blizzard sues logitech keyboards cause they have macro keys? Maybe because it gives the bot users an advantage over non-botters, because the bots don't get bored while still hogging the good training locations. Thus it uses Blizzard's servers to hurt WoW players, and therefore Blizzard's income. An aimbot is a good example here. Instead of your skill letting you win the FPS matches, you win because you downloaded the right program. So instead of a level playing field we have it where the bot users do better than the regular players. Originally by: Mr Friendly I know I'll get flamed for this, but I don't see why macros are immoral or why they should be illegal. It's my computer, dammit. I'll run what I like on my computer thankyouverymuch. If it was just your computer, fair enough. But by botting you are using up resources on the server (which is not yours) which are then unavailable for other players. Like good training spots. Quote: Selling gold, sure... it's not my property, but the property of the company in question. However, my computer is my property and I'm not comfortable giving any other person rights over what programs I can use to capture data on my own computer. The server is not yours. You agreed to not use bots when you decided to join the MMO, so why do you feel like you should be allowed on the server while breaking the rules that you agreed to. Not to mention that the bot coders sometimes include nasty stuff with the bots for their own profit.
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:06:00 - [29] Edited by: Jana Clant on 03/10/2008 14:10:13 Originally by: Rana Ash I will never understand why people buy a game, and then gets programs to play the game for them. When i buy a game i want to play it myself, not have something else do it for me. The thing with MMOs is that they aren't like normal games, developers purposely put a fun aspect and a grind aspect into it. The idea behind this is that you spend less time having fun due to the grind, so you appreciate the fun part more, and since it's less common, you'll take more time to get bored of the game. (resulting in more months of subscription) EVE is a very good example of this ideology, with having to make ISK for a new ship every time you lose it, and the skills system which severely limits the speed at which you can progress in the game. People resort to macros to eliminate the grind aspect, having the computers do the boring part for them so they focus whatever time they have to play on the fun part of the game. Then again, I don't think this is the main reason for macros in EVE, as you can legally trade RL cash for ISK. The macros you see around are the ones supplying the RMT industry. Join New Eden Research today and never worry about queues again!
Ryysa Paisti	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:34:00 - [30] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker ive always wanted a decompiler for fun. here in the US using one on a game client they could strike with the DMCA. this story honestly shocked me though, i didnt think the DMCA had a use at all but i guess like piles of shit, when thrown accurately it has a use... Uhm. Just get IDA Pro. Softice was really good for in-memory editing things, but it's kinda outdated now. Also, decompilers are there for very few things - Java classes, Python compiled code, Delphi, couple more things. But generally few. You can disassemble anything pretty much though. EW Guide - Music Downloader - My Music

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