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AngelGrinder
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:09:00 -
[1]
Before anyone says 'just use a sceure container' think about their cost to use for smaller corps, its very difficult to arrange for smaller corps.
First off, I've had ore stolen before a few times, every single time its happened its someone alt, a character with 3months playing and still in the starting corp makes that fairly obvious.
The most annoying thing about it is you can actually watch the theif fly over to you, pick up all your stuff and then slowly walk off with it. In real life its the equivalent of washing your car while its unlocked. Then someone just walks up to your car, gets in, and drives off.
If that happened in real life, the police would allow you to restrain the theif and use force if nessesary, even if that didnt happen, the police would try their best to retrieve the car.
What im saying is, please give us rights to do SOMETHING.
An i dea i had, is that if a corp members takes something from your can, you cant stop them, but a message window pops up asking if this is authorised. If the player clicks NO, the player taking the can contents gets a strike against their name, if a player gets 3 strikes, they get labelled as an ore thief and show up as red to everyone.
Just please let us do something! I cannot stand just sitting there trying to annoy the theif by giving him abuse, as I know they just find it funny.
Anyone agree?
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:14:00 -
[2]
No i dont agree. Use secure cans. If you cant afford them, mine into your cargo hold like you're supposed to until you can.
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:18:00 -
[3]
I think criminal flagging will apply to 'stolen' goods (contraband) in the future. Not too sure about wether or not concord will repond (which I'm against) or that you yourself have to shoot the person.
Personally, I hope the latter 
Join the IC! |
Kerry
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:19:00 -
[4]
Don't know how stupid this is, but, how about can insurance, with some kind of can log for proof, along with a log of the thief. Keep track on who's the best ore thieves and be able to hunt them... |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:22:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Viceroy on 21/06/2004 12:24:22
yes, the devs should halt all their tasks and concentrate on veldspar mining fantasies, such as smart-cans.
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Aspir an'Toth
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:26:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Viceroy
yes, the devs should halt all their tasks and concentrate on veldspar mining fantasies, such as smart-cans.
Judging by the state of the last patch I thought they had done...It's a better excuse than any other so far anyway.
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Draysea
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:34:00 -
[7]
Angel, I have a small corp., myself being the only member, and I only use secure cans. I don't see how you cannot afford them, they're only around 3-400K ISK. They prevent exactly what you're talking about. I know you said:
Before anyone says 'just use a sceure container' think about their cost to use for smaller corps, its very difficult to arrange for smaller corps.
But I'm as small as you can get, and it saves money in the long run.
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Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.06.21 12:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lufio II on 21/06/2004 12:51:04
Quote:
Before anyone says 'just use a sceure container' think about their cost to use for smaller corps, its very difficult to arrange for smaller corps.
Beeing a CEO of a small corp I absolutely don't understand you. My Corp is happy to have not have to suffer an ore theft until now. We're currently 3 very active members, who are almost daily out on mining ops.
Back when the Corp was founded we got us secure cans. We always have some placed some secure bins in our main belt and still do so for our new members to mine into. We began with Medium Bins when we were all in Tormentors. Those bins paid off after the first load they brought, so actually your statement makes no sense to me.
We're not using secure bins anymore, instead we have a hauler sitting by, since we fill him quite fast with Battleships.
And you shouldn't compare those jetbins with open cars. Compare them with trash cans in the first place. Even the police would ask you if someone takes something valuable out of your trashcan standing at the street waiting for the garbage ppl to collect: "Why did you put it in there in the first place anyway?!"...
In contradiction to the real world you get a chance in eve... set the standing of the char to -10 and blow him up if you ever should meet him or his alt in space below 0.5 .
just my 2 isk
Edit: forgot to say something: CCP, don't play around with the jetbins, they're cool the way they are. Thx and bye
(PS: no, I don't have any Ore Thiefing Alts, in case you wonder...)
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ZeeWolf
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Posted - 2004.06.21 13:03:00 -
[9]
Just never mine alone... always have someone in a hauler standing by incase ore theives do appear.
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Bsport
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Posted - 2004.06.21 13:14:00 -
[10]
I think this would help a lot of ppl
If you are ganged with any indys, you are allowed to open there cargos and fill directly into them
But what me and friend done was place a few giant cans within mining distance of a belt and just fill those and when it becomes full continue mining as you move to the next can and start filling that, by the time they are all full get the indy then start again
Or just make a super size can
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|~~~| I run out of money, so bunny has been
| OIL | grounded down to make grease for my
|____| rifter- poor bunny
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rowbin hod
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Posted - 2004.06.21 13:15:00 -
[11]
The main problem regarding "ore thieves" is the fact that by jettisoning your cargo you're effectively getting rid of it saying "i don't want this stuff any longer". Can you think of any (slightly more realistic) situation where you would jettison something from your cargo hold that you actually wanted? It just doesn't make sense. Mind you, i'm not saying i approve of ore thieves (who are technically just going round picking up the stuff that people jettisoned, ie, stuff they don't want). In fact, firing on an ore thief in 0.6 was how i lost my very first ship back in the day....
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"Due to the European lard shortage, we are currently unable to supply this product." |
Cardassius
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Posted - 2004.06.21 13:54:00 -
[12]
Well, you cannot directly transfer stuff between ships.
If you can do that, transferring stuff from miner to hauler can be very secure.
ASCI Recruiting! |
Oosel
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:02:00 -
[13]
ive actually seen people mining right in the location of where people have left secure cans so that they then have to come out and reset where they have put the cans in the first place.......some peeps will do anything to get on peoples nerves its very strange....i know jet can mining is wrong but did ccp really intend on players mining so slowly if you didnt....even hardened miners cant enjoy all those hours spent motionless its not even like you can read a book or tv any more these days as your zapped if you do
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Winterblink
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:07:00 -
[14]
There are thousands of star systems out there. My advice would be to find one in an out-of-the-way spot and mine to your heart's content.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:15:00 -
[15]
my god winter, missed your last two comics but man they are good 
keep it up.
And btw, i agree, lots of systems without thieves. And nothing wrong with having an indy on standy all the time minimising the window of opportunity.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Magellan Abraxis
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:34:00 -
[16]
I read in another thread that taking something from a can that isn't yours or a gangmate will get you a criminal flag and the owner (and gangmembers) can shoot you. But I must admit I have neither tried it or been in the position to try it post-patch.
I do label my cans "Orethiefs welcome" now though
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Explorer at heart, trader at mind. |
Lufio II
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Magellan Abraxis
I read in another thread that taking something from a can that isn't yours or a gangmate will get you a criminal flag and the owner (and gangmembers) can shoot you. But I must admit I have neither tried it or been in the position to try it post-patch.
I do label my cans "Orethiefs welcome" now though
Actually I emptied a bin yesterday left by someone who got shot by the station. No warnings, no flaggings. So I wouldn't count on an ore thief beeing flagged as criminal for you when he takes stuff from your trashcan aka jetbin. Would surprise me, tho, since it hasn't been mentioned anywhere official that criminal flagging extends to jetbins. Just found criminal flags issued to supporters of criminals (shield tankers and such).
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Hal3
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Posted - 2004.06.21 14:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Hal3 on 21/06/2004 14:51:52
Originally by: AngelGrinder
Before anyone says 'just use a sceure container' think about their cost to use for smaller corps, its very difficult to arrange for smaller corps.
Anyone agree?
I personally own like 15 Giant Cans how are they hard too afford? If I mine to a Jetcan now I have an Indy standing by to pluck it out as soon as it get's into the can.
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Tophereon
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Posted - 2004.06.21 15:14:00 -
[19]
Hmmm, this topic again? I got very angry a while back when this happend to me. And I do feel that mining into secure cans is a pain in the ass, so I took advice and found an empty system, there are so many out there.
Think about it, ore 'thieves' are extremely lazy (scum), so they are hardly gonna travel multiple jumps on the off chance of finding a jet can, so they populate busy areas.
I only see a few people a day in my mining spot, so I can mine undisturbed all I like.
Toph. 
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Ancient Mythology
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Posted - 2004.06.21 16:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lufio II
Originally by: Magellan Abraxis
I read in another thread that taking something from a can that isn't yours or a gangmate will get you a criminal flag and the owner (and gangmembers) can shoot you. But I must admit I have neither tried it or been in the position to try it post-patch.
I do label my cans "Orethiefs welcome" now though
Actually I emptied a bin yesterday left by someone who got shot by the station. No warnings, no flaggings. So I wouldn't count on an ore thief beeing flagged as criminal for you when he takes stuff from your trashcan aka jetbin. Would surprise me, tho, since it hasn't been mentioned anywhere official that criminal flagging extends to jetbins. Just found criminal flags issued to supporters of criminals (shield tankers and such).
Actually it does seem to apply to jetcans. Me and a corp mate tested it a couple of days ago. We weren't grouped up, and he was mining into a jetcan. I flew up and took some of his ore. Instantly his drones started firing at me, and we both had lovely blinking red boxes around are ships. I'm sure it works the same way with non-corp members. |
Ky Vatta
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Posted - 2004.06.21 16:58:00 -
[21]
 Btw, if a member of your own Corp takes stuff from your can without permission, just shoot at him.......you don`t get penalised for shooting your own Corp....
Corp Chief Engineer |
Vacuole
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Posted - 2004.06.21 17:06:00 -
[22]
I disagree with your entire premise, AngelGrinder. You liken your ejected can to a car you are washing.
In my view, an ejected can is more like a garbage can sitting on the street waiting to be picked-up by Waste Management. Pretty much anything in it is public domain.
If you're content with mining into a garbage can, that's your business. But cargo containers are public domain -- free-for-all..
(Having said that, I will say I have never 'stolen ore' from people mining.. I personally have shot a few cans though. :)
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.06.21 17:30:00 -
[23]
Actually, it's not at all like putting it in the trash. There is that function in EVE (right click item, click "Trash It").
Since mining into a container is the way you mine, it is more like working on something and setting it down. Like say, taking your laptop off your lap and putting it on a table.
Then some joker walks up, takes your laptop, and thumbs his nose at you and says, "You put it down, if you wanted this laptop so badly you wouldn't have just set it there."
It's ridiculous, frankly, though I agree with Orestes ( ) that CONCORD should not respond. If the person is in a real corporation, you can declare war on him/her; but you can't do that if the person is in a noob corp. Frankly, I see this as an abuse of the noob corps, and a problem with the design of the game in that regard.
RATHER, I'd like to see the option of allowing a corporation to declare war on an INDIVIDUAL -- including those in NPC corps -- which would follow that INDIVIDUAL around no matter how many corps they jump through.
This would not solve the problem, but would at least give this activity (ore thieving) some risk.
What I find ironic is that the people who complain most about "carebear whiners" are the ones fighting tooth and nail to keep a "profession" in the game that only has rewards and absolutely ZERO risk. This to me is absurd -- no profession should be totally risk free.
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.06.21 17:32:00 -
[24]
P.S., the plural of thief is thieves, not thiefs. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
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Kath'ranis
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Posted - 2004.06.21 18:02:00 -
[25]
Quote:
This to me is absurd -- no profession should be totally risk free.
But you want to remove a risk from the profession of jettison can mining by allowing retribution. Doesn't that kind of go against the "no profession should be totally risk free" concept?
And corp wars against individuals coming from someone that moans and whines about "griefer-wars" you really make sense.
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farfrael
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Posted - 2004.06.21 18:17:00 -
[26]
I am the typical PvE player (don't like PvP) and _even I_ think that you take your risks when using non secure cans
using non secure cans = you take your chances
If you really want revenge go get that expendable frigate and waste the guy who is stealing from you (concord are so nice they won't even pod you :) )
stop complaining about that thing, there is no reason to nerf every single aspect of that game
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Swift
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Posted - 2004.06.21 18:32:00 -
[27]
Firstly as a beta player I can simply tell you this - the technique of jettison of cans and then filling them up is a 'beta player technique'. Yes thats right... players realised they could mine for much longer by filling up this stupidly volumous ship-created cans (the volume of ore that fits in the can doesn't exactly add up - your hold can't anywhere as much ore but a can *you* jettison that holds much more?).
However it became a part of the game and it seems that CCP allowed it to remain instead of correcting this rather abnormal method of collecting ore (instead of filling a hold, letting a hauler take it and repeat.. even if that takes much longer). Ties in with the fact they intended battleships to cost more than twice as much initially it seems.. when people mine more than twice as fast than initial game design via this method, prices drop as minerals enter the market faster. Still, they allowed it so there you go.
However one fact remains - you are jettisoning the ore, and anything that floats in space as far as I can see belongs to 'anyone'. My opinion though of course before you excitedly press the reply button... its an open discussion forum after all (though I realise its an mmporg one, cough).
Thus the concept of ore 'thieves' is a little strange to me when one relinquished ownership on jettison. Yes I completely understand one worked hard to mine it, its obvious to everyone its 'your' ore. However as far as I can see from EVE 'law' up to now, while unofficially it may be yours, the fact its just floating around in a cannister there which you ejected out makes it open to anyone, even if it has your name printed on the side.
We'll see if CCP allow criminal flagging to someone else popping 'your' can. I suppose thats their final endorsement of this method of mining by allowing game mechanics to allow protection. But until then, if I lose ore to a thief, I won't blame anyone except myself when I clicked that jettison button. Players love dumbing everything down and them complain when it is. I hope the devs know when to draw the line.
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'The truth about low sec space is that it reveals humanity - the 'essence' of all the races, in its purest form. A place where Concord no longer polices or protects, 'human nature' thrives in all its distilled destructive self-serving glory. Welcome to hell ladies and gentlemen, welcome to what it really is to be human.'
-Swiftare 'Swift' Sarum. |
Dak Velos
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Posted - 2004.06.21 18:40:00 -
[28]
If you jettison something from your hold, it's like putting something down in a public park. You have no recourse against anyone who might pick it up because it's not on your property and isn't in your possesion any longer. I would agree about secure cans if you owned the section of space you dumped the cans into, but you don't.
I won't call the cops for somebody who takes my ball when I put it down and walk away from it -- I have no right whether I still want it or not.
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.06.21 18:47:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ishkur on 21/06/2004 18:50:08
Originally by: Dak Velos
If you jettison something from your hold, it's like putting something down in a public park. You have no recourse against anyone who might pick it up because it's not on your property and isn't in your possesion any longer. I would agree about secure cans if you owned the section of space you dumped the cans into, but you don't.
I won't call the cops for somebody who takes my ball when I put it down and walk away from it -- I have no right whether I still want it or not.
They're not "walking away from it" though. They're sitting right there in front of it. To extend your analogy, this is like someone in a public park putting their picnic basket down in front of them, and someone walking up and stealing it. "Oh but you put your picnic basket down on the GROUND -- I thought you were done with it."
It's one thing if you actually walk away from it. But if you are sitting right there in front of it, clearly you do not mean for it to be abandoned.
And there's a difference between griefer wars and actual conflicts. I have no problem with actual conflict wars, but the griefers who declare war on total strangers just to have (noob) targets to shoot are the scum of the game and do not deserve my respect or nice words. I'm not arguing that one could declare war on noob CORPS (which the griefer corps would certainly jump all over) but to declare wars on individuals who hide behind these corps to avoid retribution.
There's still a risk in what I suggest -- your ore can still be stolen. BUT, there's also a risk now for those who steal the ore -- that someone might get angry enough to use their war slot to punish you.
Kath'ranis, there are already risks for mining (into secure cans or otherwise) in the form of NPCs, PvP pirates in 0.4- systems, and corp wars. But the griefer in a noob corp flying around stealing veldspar from noobs is immune from retribution. And that, in my opinion, ought to be corrected.
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Dak Velos
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Posted - 2004.06.21 19:07:00 -
[30]
Secure cans are proerty of the player -- jettisoned cans are not. It is equivilant to driving down the road and throwing your cup of Coke out the window. Whether you're sitting beside the recent discarded cup or not -- it's not yours once it leaves your vehicle. It didn't just fall out -- you put it out there knowing it could be picked up, the same as jet cans. You KNOW that anyone can access them and take what's inside. If you decide the rick is worth the reward then use them. But don't say that we need some manner of recourse against people who scavenge. Secure cans stop that.
Imagine it this way, you're flying along and see some rats near one of their cargo containers. You blast the rats and take a peek inside -- except now you're flagged as a criminal -- or whatever -- because some player dropped a can there and you opened it. Thus we user in the Era of Can GriefingÖ, whereby players are duped into a lower status of some sort because they didn't know a can belonged to someone, or they didn't check.
This is a pretty silly debate. If Jets cans are too fallable and you can't afford a secure one, mine to your hold and haul it back as it was intended. Don't come asking for security where it isn't warranted.
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