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Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:14:00 - [1] Do TD's actually work under their optimal? I've got a Pilgrim, and have one TD fitted. But to make full use of the Pilgrim, I have to get under the TD's optimal and into -10km's. Having only really fiited one out recently and only killed a few haulers, I'm wondering if the TD will have an effect on a turreted ship that I eventually find to fight solo?
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:42:00 - [2] Tracking disrupters work fine all the way up to optimal, then not so well when they get into falloff range. You can be up their nose or engaging at 50+km, as long as you are in optimal range, the Tracking Disruptor will have it's full effect.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Tracking disrupters work fine all the way up to optimal, then not so well when they get into falloff range. You can be up their nose or engaging at 50+km, as long as you are in optimal range, the Tracking Disruptor will have it's full effect. Since it was somewhat ambiguous - by "not so well when they get into falloff range", that means that like other modules they have a chance of functioning depending how far deep you are into falloff. If they work, then they will work at their full effectiveness, but the chance of them working is reduced in falloff. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 12:49:00 - [4] cheers for that. so basically, under 10km's they're relatively useless, apart from keeping a target's mate off you i s'pose.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.03 12:51:00 - [5] Originally by: Forum Chav cheers for that. so basically, under 10km's they're relatively useless, apart from keeping a target's mate off you i s'pose. If you're going in close, use a tracking script rather than an optimal script.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Forum Chav cheers for that. so basically, under 10km's they're relatively useless, apart from keeping a target's mate off you i s'pose. If you're going in close, use a tracking script rather than an optimal script. This. If you intend to get up close and personal with turret ships, go with tracking speed scripts, it will make surviving at point blank range much easier.
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Forum Chav cheers for that. so basically, under 10km's they're relatively useless, apart from keeping a target's mate off you i s'pose. If you're going in close, use a tracking script rather than an optimal script. This. If you intend to get up close and personal with turret ships, go with tracking speed scripts, it will make surviving at point blank range much easier. rgr. so a tracdking speed script will make that td useful again then under it's standard optimal?
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:16:00 - [8] its true tough the optimal is way to far.. all the dirupt ships fight close range and so the effect is not optimal www.garia.net
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:18:00 - [9] if you screw their tracking, you can basically orbit around them at close range and they wouldnt be able to hit you, even with a web on you at times (I have a friend who has a "bezerker" blaster Pilgrim setup with AB, and his kill record does confirm it works). -
Spartan dax eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:24:00 - [10] Whether you're using optimal scripts or tracking scripts have nothing to do with your optimal on your TD's but everything to do with your targets optimal and tracking and your position relative to it. You're in a Pilgrim Example 1. Target: Thorax You decloak at the edge of web range; Dualweb him and put an optimal scripted TD on him. He'll be in deep deep falloff and you'll only be taking drone damage Example 2 Target Pulse apocalypse You're sneaking up as close as possible, web him and use tracking scripts to make sure you're not getting hit while orbiting real close. Like I said, your optimal on your TD's matter (repetetive thrusting motion) all regarding the choice of scripts. As a rule though, optimal scripts are good to have preloaded.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari if you screw their tracking, you can basically orbit around them at close range and they wouldnt be able to hit you, even with a web on you at times (I have a friend who has a "bezerker" blaster Pilgrim setup with AB, and his kill record does confirm it works). poast setup please @range v. tracking scripts: If you have 2x TD on the pilgrim, with good skills and range scripts, you can disrupt short-range gun range to basically nothing. Medium blasters won't hit anything past 2-3km even with null, you take out a huge chunk of autocannon falloff, and... well, you'll force lasers to switch to scorch, at which point depending on how far away you are they might happily destroy you anyway, but w/e. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:02:00 - [12] I think topic starter doesnt know how optimal and fall off work. Both for guns and ewar like tracking disruptors: 0km till optimal range they work for 100% at optimal + fall off they got 50% chance of working/hitting at optimal + 2x fall off it is almost 0%.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Furb Killer I think topic starter doesnt know how optimal and fall off work. Both for guns and ewar like tracking disruptors: 0km till optimal range they work for 100% at optimal + fall off they got 50% chance of working/hitting at optimal + 2x fall off it is almost 0%. i recall several people saying that guns wont hit at 0m range due to this zeroing out part of the hit probability formula... actually wouldnt suprise me. --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Mikael Mechka Tracking disrupters work fine all the way up to optimal, then not so well when they get into falloff range. You can be up their nose or engaging at 50+km, as long as you are in optimal range, the Tracking Disruptor will have it's full effect. Since it was somewhat ambiguous - by "not so well when they get into falloff range", that means that like other modules they have a chance of functioning depending how far deep you are into falloff. If they work, then they will work at their full effectiveness, but the chance of them working is reduced in falloff. I wished ECM worked 100% of the time within optimal.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:16:00 - [15] Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson Originally by: Furb Killer I think topic starter doesnt know how optimal and fall off work. Both for guns and ewar like tracking disruptors: 0km till optimal range they work for 100% at optimal + fall off they got 50% chance of working/hitting at optimal + 2x fall off it is almost 0%. i recall several people saying that guns wont hit at 0m range due to this zeroing out part of the hit probability formula... actually wouldnt suprise me. okay at 0km it doesnt work, at 1m it does work (as long as tracking isnt a problem, so both your ship and target arent moving at all).
Lithel Shadow Incursion The Church.	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:16:00 - [16] Originally by: daisy dook I wished ECM worked 100% of the time within optimal. \ No. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Forum Chav rgr. so a tracdking speed script will make that td useful again then under it's standard optimal? You don't switch scripts based on the optimal range of your TD's. You switch scripts based on the optimal range of your target's turrets. Dropping your target's optimal range from 60km to 15km is not going to help if you are attacking him at 10km. However, if you cut his tracking you might see some results.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:23:00 - [18] Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson i recall several people saying that guns wont hit at 0m range due to this zeroing out part of the hit probability formula... actually wouldnt suprise me. That applies to turrets because of tracking. Ewar is not affected because there is not tracking calculation, just falloff.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Night-Stalkers	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson i recall several people saying that guns wont hit at 0m range due to this zeroing out part of the hit probability formula... actually wouldnt suprise me. That applies to turrets because of tracking. Ewar is not affected because there is not tracking calculation, just falloff. good to know, thanks! --------------------------------------------- I may be a bit over Zealot, but i cant help myself, its the best investment i ever made!
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Furb Killer I think topic starter doesnt know how optimal and fall off work... you are correct, i don't know exactly how they work. topic starter is maxed in missiles, and about 4m in gunnery, so turret awareness is somewhat limited Quote: ...Both for guns and ewar like tracking disruptors: 0km till optimal range they work for 100% at optimal + fall off they got 50% chance of working/hitting at optimal + 2x fall off it is almost 0%. thank you
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:15:00 - [21] hold on, someone said something about both me and my target being stationary? wouldn't moving make it much more difficult for my target's turrets to track me? and if i've understood this properly, it's the distance from the target to my tracking disruptor that is MY optimal? is one td enough on a pilgrim? my pilgrim atm; cov/ops cloak 2 x med neut t2 1 x small neut t2 ab scram web med inject w/800's balmer td 2 x med repper T2 1 x 800mm rt plate 1 x eanm t2 1 x suitcase t2 no rigs as yet does the above set-up give me a chance with only one td?
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 03/10/2008 16:44:17 Originally by: Forum Chav does the above set-up give me a chance with only one td? Depends on the situation. Your TD will work with full effect out to its optimal range. Past its optimal range there is a chance that it will do nothing. At optimal+falloff you have a 50% chance of your TD doing anything. At optimal+2*falloff your TD will have a 6.25% chance of doing anything. Beyond that range your TD's rapidly fade towards not hope. So what does your TD do? If you have an optimal range script loaded, it will decrease the optimal and falloff ranges of your targets turrets. If your opponent has a base optimal range of 60km and a falloff of 20km, your TD will drop that to 30km optimal w/ 10 falloff. If you are attacking him at 50km, his chance to hit will have dropped to ~6.25% of what it was before the TD. However, if you are within 30km your TD will have had no effect on his ability to hit you. However, a second TD will drop his optimal/falloff range even further, allowing you to move in closer. If you have a tracking script loaded, the effect will depend on how easily he is tracking you. If he was tracking you with an accuracy of 50% (you have the same angular velocity and signature as his turrets) then you will drop his accuracy to ~6.25%. If he was tracking you with 84% accuracy (ie you are moving at half the speed that he can track) then you will drop his accuracy to 50%. How many TD's you need to use depends on what his range/tracking is and what your range you will engage at. Note that TD's suffer from stacking penalties, so using more than 3-4 on a single target does very little.
Lockheed19	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:50:00 - [23] Edited by: Lockheed19 on 03/10/2008 16:50:41 soz
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 03/10/2008 16:46:08 Originally by: Forum Chav does the above set-up give me a chance with only one td? Depends on the situation. Your TD will work with full effect out to its optimal range. Past its optimal range there is a chance that it will do nothing. At optimal+falloff you have a 50% chance of your TD doing anything. At optimal+2*falloff your TD will have a 6.25% chance of doing anything. Beyond that range your TD's rapidly fade towards not hope. So what does your TD do? If you have an optimal range script loaded, it will decrease the optimal and falloff ranges of your targets turrets. If your opponent has a base optimal range of 60km and a falloff of 20km, your TD will drop that to 30km optimal w/ 10 falloff. If you are attacking him at 50km, his chance to hit will have dropped to ~6.25% of what it was before the TD. However, if you are within 30km your TD will have had no effect on his ability to hit you. However, a second TD will drop his optimal/falloff range even further, allowing you to move in closer. If you have a tracking script loaded, the effect will depend on how easily he is tracking you. If he was tracking you with an accuracy of 50% (you have the same angular velocity and signature as his turrets) then you will drop his accuracy to ~6.25%. If he was tracking you with 84% accuracy (ie you are moving at half the speed that he can track) then you will drop his accuracy to 50%. If both of you are webbed to the point where you are practically stationary, then decreasing his tracking is not likely to help. How many TD's you need to use depends on what his range/tracking is and what your range you will engage at. Note that TD's suffer from stacking penalties, so using more than 3-4 on a single target does very little. situation is decloak under 10km/scram/web/neut/drones/rep/win/plunder wreck/leg it. which is why i was wondering if td's will work under 10km's. thanks for your post though. helps me understand turrets a bit more.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Forum Chav situation is decloak under 10km/scram/web/neut/drones/rep/win/plunder wreck/leg it. Your tactics would need to adjust for the type of fitting that your target has. Stay away from missile/drone ships. For long range turrets (Artillery, Railguns, and Beam Lasers) engage as close as you can and use tracking scripts to limit their damage. For short range turrets (Autocannon, Blasters, and Pulse Lasers) engage as far out as you can and use range scripts to limit their damage. For another option with short range turrets, you could also try to super-minimize range and use tracking disuption. Decloak at 2500m, use your AB and momentum to carry you within 250m, and stay as close as possible while maintaining as much angular velocity as possible. If you can keep your speed above 40m/s and your range under 250m, they should not be able to hit for much at all. Even at 500m they should have a hard time hitting back. However, if they can open up the range, you could run into trouble, but then you can also quickly switch to a range script. You will need to try stuff out to see how well it works in practice.
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Forum Chav situation is decloak under 10km/scram/web/neut/drones/rep/win/plunder wreck/leg it. Your tactics would need to adjust for the type of fitting that your target has. Stay away from missile/drone ships. For long range turrets (Artillery, Railguns, and Beam Lasers) engage as close as you can and use tracking scripts to limit their damage. For short range turrets (Autocannon, Blasters, and Pulse Lasers) engage as far out as you can and use range scripts to limit their damage. For another option with short range turrets, you could also try to super-minimize range and use tracking disuption. Decloak at 2500m, use your AB and momentum to carry you within 250m, and stay as close as possible while maintaining as much angular velocity as possible. If you can keep your speed above 40m/s and your range under 250m, they should not be able to hit for much at all. Even at 500m they should have a hard time hitting back. However, if they can open up the range, you could run into trouble, but then you can also quickly switch to a range script. You will need to try stuff out to see how well it works in practice. jethro, that is quite possibly the best bit of advice i have ever received in the forums. thank you very much mate, spot-on.
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.03 18:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Forum Chav Originally by: Jethro Jechonias You will need to try stuff out to see how well it works in practice. jethro, that is quite possibly the best bit of advice i have ever received in the forums. thank you very much mate, spot-on. Thank you However, I should caution you, that I know the theory, but have not actually tried it in practice.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Lithel Originally by: daisy dook I wished ECM worked 100% of the time within optimal. \ No. dude. . .ECM is good enough, obvious bait. . .and I bit!! Optimal also affects falloff. So against minmatar AC ships (vegabond, slephnier etc) its oftan better to keep it at optimal since that affects optimal and falloff - making their dps go from craptasstic to non-existant. Against bigger guns - tracking, smaller guns - optimal is a good rule of thumb. For the most part though, its about you dictating that, not the enemy. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.

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