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Sornelia
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:52:00 -
[1]
Title sums it up pretty well. I am asking since I have no FW experience. Sure, I will start with some cheaper ships, but I would also like to plan for a long term ship. My skills are irrelevant for several reasons, so please ignore them.
The setups are simple Drake(heavy[later assault]/pvp mids, large extender/3xBC) and Thorax(Blaster/pvp mids/800mm, 2xMag, DC, PDU). Raw DPS is similar (500-600).
Any advice on those two or other suggestions from ppl who have FW experience? I am aware of the significant cost difference, but the range and tank of the Drake seems better compared to the Thorax. But is this relevant for FW?
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Hakka peiling
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:53:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hakka peiling on 06/10/2008 20:53:32
Drakes makes baby jesus cry. |
Sarciss
Black Legion Command
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:56:00 -
[3]
If you ever get any decent fights in FW you'll have one of 2 outcomes.
"Hey look a thorax, lets instagib it."
"Hey look a drake, lets leave it alone to play with itself, bye"
I'd take the thorax, cheap, effective.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.10.06 20:59:00 -
[4]
Maybe stuff changed, but when i was in gallente militia drakes were usually called primary, dont ask me why. (joined minnie militia today so have no idea if they got that habbit too  )
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 06/10/2008 21:01:51
There's no comparison in how much more awesome the Drake is over the Rax. I love the rax too, but solar panels > *****, fyi
-Liang
Ed: LOL, I accidentally avoided the swear filter the first time through. I fixed it just for the nublins out there. :)
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Sarciss
Black Legion Command
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:02:00 -
[6]
D: i think since the start of time, if we've ever met a gang with a drake in it we've killed everything off and unless im obliged i leave the drake alone, i just cba with it xD
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Alexander Nexus
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:04:00 -
[7]
First piece of advice. Don't plate a thorax. The HP boost isn't going to make a difference in the long run. Plates make a thorax heavy in the ass which both slows down its accel (getting into blaster range) and cuts your agility down (hit and run tactics go out the window then). A DCII is your best bet.
Secondly, The sheer awesomeness of drake's tanks (whether they be buffer or active) is going to mean that to take him down is going to take forever and a day. Which for you in a blastrax means you're dead. I've seen drakes tank 4 BSs in FW, given it didn't last forever but it gives you an idea of what a drake can take.
This is not to say that blasterax's are by any means useless. I fly one myself every now and then. But to attempt to take a drake solo (unless he's afk... then have at him) with a thorax is suicide. If you want to get into DPS in FW for relatively little isk and risk, get a Brutix. It'll do anything a thorax can do and make a good number of setups sweat.
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Sarciss
Black Legion Command
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:06:00 -
[8]
Your mad if you don't plate cruisers
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Furb Killer
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 06/10/2008 21:26:08
 Quote:
I've seen drakes tank 4 BSs in FW, given it didn't last forever but it gives you an idea of what a drake can take.
It gives you an idea how people in FW setup their BS.
Edit: An thorax is a great ship and i would use a thorax rather than a brutix. If i want a battlecruiser i take a tier 2 one.
Also many cruisers are just made to be plated. Which includes for example the rupture, and also the thorax. For a gank fit you can do it without plates, for a balanced fit you use a plate.
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:31:00 -
[10]
Drake vs Thorax in a forced fight (i.e. neither side tries to run before points are applied): Drake wins hands down unless the Thorax manages to keep the Drake jammed with a flight of medium ECM drones.
Drake has:
Far more EHP
Better range (Far better range with HML)
Higher cost
Thorax has:
Bigger drone bay (for more DPS or better EWar)
Better maneuverability
Lower cost
The organic DPS (i.e. guns/launchers only, no drones) for both ships is pretty similar for a plated/Electron Thorax and a HML/3x BCU Drake. A Gank Thorax will easily out-DPS even a HAM Drake, but the difference in range and EHP is so huge that a Gank Thorax will likely die before the Drake even gets into armor.
Mind you, probably the single biggest skill involved in flying solo is knowing when to engage. If you're flying a Thorax and find a Drake in a belt you can probably just warp off before the Drake gets a lock on you; the Drake doesn't have that luxury.
Having said that, I have seen a Thorax take down a Drake solo before. It was due to a combination of lucky fit (Drake was a PvP/ratting combo ship that was EM/therm heavy) and lucky EWar (ECM drones kept the Drake locked down far more than they should have normally). Note the amount of luck in that scenario.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Sornelia
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sornelia on 06/10/2008 21:35:24
Uhm... I am a fairly new player, especially in terms of pvp, so I need a bit more of explanations please. =)
So far, the tank of the Drake stands out, but since I would use 3xBCU, it would not be a full passive tank (still 84k effective HP is quite something ;p). For the Thorax, is getting into close range even an issue in FW for a blaster ship?
@Alexander
Although I question the idea to remove the plate, the Brutix hint is quite interesting. I guess that rails would be required, since it is even more difficult to get a Brutix in range for some blasting?
EDIT:
@Bronson
Thx for the summary, but I did not mean a fight between those two, but which ship is more "useful" in FW? Sure, each of them is better when put into a specific role, but I am looking for an all-round role, e.g. just joining an FW gang. An issue I mentioned is, if range is critical in FW?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Having said that, I have seen a Thorax take down a Drake solo before. It was due to a combination of lucky fit (Drake was a PvP/ratting combo ship that was EM/therm heavy) and lucky EWar (ECM drones kept the Drake locked down far more than they should have normally). Note the amount of luck in that scenario.
I took a Drake in a nano stabber [solo] ... anything can done. Doesn't make it really "possible" in a more generic sense. ;-)
-Liang
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Sarciss
Black Legion Command
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sornelia
Edited by: Sornelia on 06/10/2008 21:36:06
Edited by: Sornelia on 06/10/2008 21:35:24
Uhm... I am a fairly new player, especially in terms of pvp, s
Get in the Thorax. No point waisting cash on a ship in a situation you havn't been in before. Also if you have access to the drake, im assuming you have access to the Caracal? Load one of them bad boys up with HML, Sensor Boosters and BCU and lob them missiles!
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Sornelia
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:50:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sornelia on 06/10/2008 21:53:03
@Sarciss
Thx, I will try the Caracal first of course and I mentioned it in my first post:
Originally by: Sornelia
Sure, I will start with some cheaper ships, but I would also like to plan for a long term ship.
The idea behind this thread is to get an idea what my next ship after the first weeks of experience could be, specifically for FW.
EDIT: I would need about one month of skills for either of the ships to get to 90% of the max values (mostly dmg skills; support(navi, CPU etc.) is already maxed).
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Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2008.10.06 21:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sornelia
@Bronson
Thx for the summary, but I did not mean a fight between those two, but which ship is more "useful" in FW? Sure, each of them is better when put into a specific role, but I am looking for an all-round role, e.g. just joining a FW gang. An issue I mentioned is, if range is critical in FW?
Yeah, I just re-read the OP and noticed that, but my analysis still holds in general. Thoraxes are still nice for fast gangs and looking for solo miner/hauler kills in a belt, but in a larger group a Drake is almost always a better choice; more endurance, better range, decent damage.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Having said that, I have seen a Thorax take down a Drake solo before. It was due to a combination of lucky fit (Drake was a PvP/ratting combo ship that was EM/therm heavy) and lucky EWar (ECM drones kept the Drake locked down far more than they should have normally). Note the amount of luck in that scenario.
I took a Drake in a nano stabber [solo] ... anything can done. Doesn't make it really "possible" in a more generic sense. ;-)
-Liang
I agree completely, hence the emphasis on the amount of luck involved in my scenario. ;-)
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:35:00 -
[16]
I tookie down a thorax in a harbinger, wheres my cookie?!?!
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.06 23:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I tookie down a thorax in a harbinger, wheres my cookie?!?!
Over there 
-Liang
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hakka peiling
Edited by: Hakka peiling on 06/10/2008 20:53:32
Drakes makes baby jesus cry.
Because drakes are the true harbingers of the apocolypse.
I'm just gonna let the puns sink right on in now.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sarciss
Your mad if you don't plate cruisers
So true
Originally by: Furb Killer
Maybe stuff changed, but when i was in gallente militia drakes were usually called primary, dont ask me why. (joined minnie militia today so have no idea if they got that habbit too )
lol I'd say something about fail Gallente militia but I really have no idea who is is winning or whats happening with FW =P
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Tasha Wong
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Posted - 2008.10.07 01:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Maybe stuff changed, but when i was in gallente militia drakes were usually called primary, dont ask me why. (joined minnie militia today so have no idea if they got that habbit too )
The only Drake that I recalled seeing while in the Minmatar militia belonged to a pirate who unfortunately decided to solo in it and sat at a gate.
Our small roving fleet reported it (mostly T1/T2 cruisers and frigs) and another pilot and I tackled him and we took him down quickly and earned a sec status hit for aggressing a pirate.
Things could have turned out differently if that Drake was used instead as bait for a gank team, but we had intel already in neighbouring systems.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.07 02:16:00 -
[21]
As a drake pilot i feel offended by this comparison. I can easy take 3-4 thoraxes in my drake.
Why don't you ask if you should take a thorax or a kestrel, that would be a more appropriate composition.
_________
My e-peen |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.07 02:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
As a drake pilot i feel offended by this comparison. I can easy take 3-4 thoraxes in my drake.
Why don't you ask if you should take a thorax or a kestrel, that would be a more appropriate composition.
I dunno, a well flown Kestral has at least SOME chance of killing a HAM Drake. Afterall, it's faster AND can deal damage at point range (giving it maybe a 6 - 7km effective range advantage). Might take ages to chew through the tank and it'd require some very fancy errorless flying on the part of the kessie pilot but it's at least theoritically possible.
The Throax versus the Drake though just doesn't seem like a reasonable fight. The thorax is going to play a pure gank/tank game like the drake. If the thorax tries to use the drones and then run like hell outside the drake's range, it's a fairly simple process to remove said drones in short order reducing the thorax to his blasters. If he charges straight in the Drake has several times more EHP and equal (if not better real world) firepower. I suppose there is a possiblity the thorax can win but the scenarios involve truly epic stupidity on the part of the drake pilot (I forgot to load guns?!).
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sarciss
Your mad if you don't plate cruisers
QTF!(assuming you're not talking about Caldari cruisers or stabbers)
Just don't overdo it and try to fit a 1600mm plate on any cruise bar a Maller, its eats up way too much grid and completely gimps your agility. 800mm RT give you a sufficient buffer without too much grid use or extra mass.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:06:00 -
[24]
you're trying to compare a battlecruiser vs a cruiser here. Who do you think would win?
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
you're trying to compare a battlecruiser vs a cruiser here. Who do you think would win?
Valid point, but I don't think the OP was interested in 1v1 per say.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: 6Bagheera9
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
you're trying to compare a battlecruiser vs a cruiser here. Who do you think would win?
Valid point, but I don't think the OP was interested in 1v1 per say.
I don't think a 1V1 is any contest. I don't think even a 2v1 is any contest. Really, I think you'd need 3 thoraxes per drake to have a good chance at taking the drake down (and god forbid the Drake is CDFE rigged), and even then you'll probably lose 2 of the Rax's.
From a strict cost effectiveness standpoint, the thorax is probably the superior ship (afterall, you can fit 5 thoraxes for the cost of 1 drake on the intial purchase at least)
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: 6Bagheera9
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
you're trying to compare a battlecruiser vs a cruiser here. Who do you think would win?
Valid point, but I don't think the OP was interested in 1v1 per say.
I don't think a 1V1 is any contest. I don't think even a 2v1 is any contest. Really, I think you'd need 3 thoraxes per drake to have a good chance at taking the drake down (and god forbid the Drake is CDFE rigged), and even then you'll probably lose 2 of the Rax's.
From a strict cost effectiveness standpoint, the thorax is probably the superior ship (afterall, you can fit 5 thoraxes for the cost of 1 drake on the intial purchase at least)
Two gank Thoraxes with medium ECM drones could make things interesting.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.07 04:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: 6Bagheera9
Two gank Thoraxes with medium ECM drones could make things interesting.
56% chance of jamming a Drake. Drake has 82K EHP... assuming a Ion/800 fit for the Thoraxes, we see each Thorax having 17K EHP and dealing 418 DPS.
The Thoraxes combined do 836 DPS which means that it takes ~100 seconds to blow through a Drake (and that the Drake should be jammed about 56 of those seconds).
The Drake does 618 DPS, which means the Drake requires 27 seconds to kill a Thorax... and can thus kill two thoraxes in 54 seconds (two seconds shy of them killing the Drake, and this includes the second thorax's damage after it died).
It could be interesting, but statistically speaking, it won't be.
-Liang
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Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.10.07 05:06:00 -
[29]
Drake is a better ship. Just don't go for the mega tank setups unless your pvp goals are agression timers.
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Bloody Rabbit
Jita Miners
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Posted - 2008.10.07 05:07:00 -
[30]
LOL
I love Caldari but really
Who really thinks that a Drake can hold its own against a rax?
I'm not talking about some noob rax but a fully fitted T2 drake vs Rax, Rax will win any day of the week. Or worst case just fly away from the slow brick.
Originally by: Shadarle
I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu |
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