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SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.06.23 12:50:00 -
[1]
I've been shooting npc's after the patch with a full array of Mega Pulse lasers on my Apocalypse and i must say, i love that gun. It still is able to shoot cruisers orbitting me @ 8km (although reduced success of hitting 'em ofcourse) and the overall damage is very nice when i select the appropiate crystal (in my case: Radio, Infrared or Multifreq).
Curious about to the performance (and the resulting cap saving) of a full array of Dual Heavy Pulse, i unequipped my mega pulse lasers and added:
1x Dual Heavy Modulated pulse
1x Dual Heavy Modal pulse
2x Dual Heavy Afocal pulse
4x Dual Heavy Pulse (standard) pulse
These things all have better tracking than the Mega Pulse, but they can't hit the cruisers orbitting close, like i described above when i use mega pulse.
This should not be the case, since the Dual Heavy Pulse (named or standard) have better tracking than its Mega big brother. Whatever crystal i try, it just isnt hitting 'em. Anyone know why this is happening? Or is this just a bug that needs to get patched out?
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SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.06.23 16:51:00 -
[2]
Okay, noone knows.
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number 258
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Posted - 2004.06.24 09:01:00 -
[3]
dunno sorry
long live the Taranis!!!
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shakaZ XIV
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Posted - 2004.06.24 09:56:00 -
[4]
dunno either but the type of crystal you use has nothing to do with tracking...
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MadGaz
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Posted - 2004.06.24 10:16:00 -
[5]
Very strange, I'd like to know aswell
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Ardor
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Posted - 2004.06.24 11:12:00 -
[6]
I've made a test. I had an apo fitted with a dual pulse and a mega pulse without tracking computer. I shot a Veldspar rock while orbitting at 10km. The dual pulse had a very slightly better result. A tracking computer would have made the difference bigger. If this very small tracking advantage and the lesser cap usage outweights the higher damage potential and optimal/falloff of a mega pulse is up to you.
The dual pulse made 100 shots (first number),the mega pulse made 99 shots.
miss completly 18/30
barely miss 19/19
glances off 31/21
barely scratches 7/12
light hits 8/0
hits 7/9
well aimed 6/4
excellent 3/4
wrecking 1/0
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Theladon
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Posted - 2004.06.24 11:13:00 -
[7]
I use an Apoc right now 6x Tach and 2x heavy pulse
What i have noticed is as follows:
Tracking speed should be directly related to the transversal speed of your target right?
So at a given distance the transversal have to be below a certain velocity for me to hit, the closer the target, the slower the target have to move for you to hit.
BUT (and here come my findings) under a certain range (app. 8 km for my tachs) i cant hit ****e even if the transversal is 2m/s.
I have a clue that they modify the chance to hit with the distance to your target and/or your current optimal and falloff.
Seems that calculation is wrong somewhere, if you compare the hit ratios of my tachs with the one of my pals 1400.s it becomes painfully clear.
Somehow this error affects some guns more than others, and it seems to depend on the skills of the pilot to.
</rambling>
Hope i made some kind of sense..:)
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.06.24 11:17:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Shevar on 24/06/2004 11:18:12
 Originally by: SKiNNiEH
I've been shooting npc's after the patch with a full array of Mega Pulse lasers on my Apocalypse and i must say, i love that gun. It still is able to shoot cruisers orbitting me @ 8km (although reduced success of hitting 'em ofcourse) and the overall damage is very nice when i select the appropiate crystal (in my case: Radio, Infrared or Multifreq).
Curious about to the performance (and the resulting cap saving) of a full array of Dual Heavy Pulse, i unequipped my mega pulse lasers and added:
1x Dual Heavy Modulated pulse
1x Dual Heavy Modal pulse
2x Dual Heavy Afocal pulse
4x Dual Heavy Pulse (standard) pulse
These things all have better tracking than the Mega Pulse, but they can't hit the cruisers orbitting close, like i described above when i use mega pulse.
This should not be the case, since the Dual Heavy Pulse (named or standard) have better tracking than its Mega big brother. Whatever crystal i try, it just isnt hitting 'em. Anyone know why this is happening? Or is this just a bug that needs to get patched out?
The point is against cruisers large guns only have an effective tracking of 50% (check the sig size on the gun). So you end up missing more hits with the mega pulse laser then a heavy beam. Same thing counts with the heavy pulse and medium beams against frigates.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Arkanis
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Posted - 2004.06.24 11:41:00 -
[9]
I don't know if anyone else has experienced this.
Yesterday I was defending a mining op and was using megabeams on my Armaggedon. Bunch of frigates spawned 17km away from me and I was going to mwd away to get some distance so I could make them go kaboom, changed crystal to radio and just fired from 17km anyway (I don't know why) and the frigates promply blew up. If I would have used multifrequency I would have missed with each shot.
I don't know if this was because I hit the perfect transverse velocity without even knowing or there's something wrong with close range crystals/ammo.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2004.06.24 11:41:00 -
[10]
I've tried both of those lasers recently, and they both hit frigates ok. Not too happy with the damage though. neutron blasters with long range ammo still do more damage.
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SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.06.24 12:17:00 -
[11]
@ Ardor:
Thanks for testing that, but i think there might be something wrong with the testing method. First, the radius of the roid might not give the required result, as a cruiser's radius is different. Second, its the cruisers that are orbitting me (my ship at full stop) and probably at a faster rate. The new radius item that is added to all guns, is the same for the mega pulse and the dual heavy pulse.. so in that sence your test is correct.
@ Theladon:
Indeed.. it isnt that clear for me aswell on the transversal speed. Somehow it the formula doesnt translate well to the results we are getting.
@ Shevar:
Thats just the point.. i should be having more success with the cruisers when i use the dual heavy pulse, but the mega pulse has more success. (in the same environment: cruisers orbitting my fully stopped ship @ 8km)
@ Arkanis:
Yup, shakaZ XIV was talking about crystals not makign any difference, except range... I have found that certain crystal types create a better hitting chance during closerange combat. I must honestly say that i dont know all there is to know about the mechanics of guns in EVE, i can only relate my findings as i test my setups on the spawns i encounter.
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.06.24 12:23:00 -
[12]
From what the devs have posted it seems that the current state of large guns is related to some fubar distance calcs rather then tracking so presumably by messing about with your optimal through crystals you can get better results. No idea how it would work though 
Mostly harmless |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.06.24 18:54:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Alowishus on 24/06/2004 18:55:52
Originally by: Arkanis
I don't know if anyone else has experienced this.
Yesterday I was defending a mining op and was using megabeams on my Armaggedon. Bunch of frigates spawned 17km away from me and I was going to mwd away to get some distance so I could make them go kaboom, changed crystal to radio and just fired from 17km anyway (I don't know why) and the frigates promply blew up. If I would have used multifrequency I would have missed with each shot.
I don't know if this was because I hit the perfect transverse velocity without even knowing or there's something wrong with close range crystals/ammo.
I noticed I was able to get good hits below 30k with Radio Crystals on Mege Beams also. There's no real explaination for this that I can think of. It was accidental, by the way ;)
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Ardor
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Posted - 2004.06.24 22:18:00 -
[14]
Optimal range is only a number for 2 functions: a.) if you hit within optimal range you will have 100% precise behavior and b.) the end of optimal is where your falloff begins. This would mean with unlimited tracking you would always hit 100% within optimal range.
If you are shooting a target behind optimal and within falloff range your precise behaviour will decrease so your chance to hit will decrease. This would mean even with unlimited tracking your chance to hit will be influenced/decreased by the falloff curve.
On the other side the factors of tracking and signature radius (if there is transversal speed) make it easier to hit a target as more distance is between you and the target. So your chance to hit will increase even if you have to shoot outside optimal range and within falloff range.
Ammo/crystals only have influence on your optimal range but not on your tracking. To find your best range to fight is dependent from your skills/modules/ammo/crystals/weapon and most of all from signature radius and transversal speed.
I am not surprised if people who are choosing short range ammo are getting the best hits at the end of optimal + falloff while they mostly miss at closer ranges (f.e. optimal + 1/2 falloff) because of tracking issues.
Tracking and range are two different things working together.
Currently the tracking is very bad so a lot of fighters have to shoot outside optimal range even with midrange ammo. Lasers have best tracking and projectils have worst tracking. New tech 2 weapons with better tracking and advanced gunnery skills will come. It's the same story as always. Before new things come into game the old things get nerfed so the new things do the same as the old things did before. This time the nerf is a lot more intelligent and it's helping for a better balance. I like the idea very much but I am not saying it's perfect. There will come more fine tuning. I expect slightly better tracking for all weapons and new/decreased falloff values for the most shortrange weapons.
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Blazyon
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Posted - 2004.06.25 07:48:00 -
[15]
if the transversal velocity = 0, you will always hit. I very often go 100m/s directly behind NPC armageddons, (like 1km from them) and my rails hit every time because there is no transversal velocity.
It seems that range has no affect on whether or not you hit, only in that at longer ranges, there is less angular velocity at high transversal velocities.
Pain is an object of relativity. |
SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.06.25 08:45:00 -
[16]
To keep this a little bit on topic.. here are the stats (taken from eve-db) for both guns:
Mega Pulse Laser I
Activation Cost 55 Energy
Powergrid Requirement 2500 MW
CPU Requirement 50 tf
Damage Modifier 2.5
Rate of fire 7.87500
Optimal Range 20000 m
Accuracy Falloff 8000 m
Trackingspeed / Accuracy 0.0067
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I
Activation Cost 25 Energy
Powergrid Requirement 1500 MW
CPU Requirement 40 tf
Damage Modifier 1.75
Rate of fire 6.07500
Optimal Range 18000 m
Accuracy Falloff 6000 m
Trackingspeed / Accuracy 0.0067
Eve-DB is showing the sme trackingspeed for the Dual Heavy.. i can't check it right now since i'm @ work.. but i'm fairly sure the Dual Heavy should have better tracking (?). Anyways... both guns should do an equal chance of hitting those close orbitting cruisers if you look at the stats, right? Both have 12km if you do Optimal - Falloff.
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.06.25 08:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SKiNNiEH
To keep this a little bit on topic.. here are the stats (taken from eve-db) for both guns:
Mega Pulse Laser I
Damage Modifier 2.5
Rate of fire 7.87500
Optimal Range 20000 m
Accuracy Falloff 8000 m
Trackingspeed / Accuracy 0.0067
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I
Damage Modifier 1.75
Rate of fire 6.07500
Optimal Range 18000 m
Accuracy Falloff 6000 m
Trackingspeed / Accuracy 0.0067
Sorry, but Eve-DB is now out of date on this (it's not being updated). Current tracking figures for large lasers are:
Tachyon 0.0075
Megabeam 0.0075
Dual Hvy Beam 0.0107
Mega Pulse 0.0214
Dual Hvy Pulse 0.0250
Would also be interesting to compare Mega Pulse with (medium) Heavy Beam. Heavy beam has same range/falloff, virtually same tracking (0.0215) and about 3/4 of the nominal DoT. So it'd make a good test of how much impact scan resolution (which is half for the medium weapon) has on hitting targets.
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