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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:23:00 - [61] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 1) Since when is a neutron Megathron's optimal 12km? By that point you're getting into falloff. LoL? Who cares about the optimal? Did you read what I said? There is no difference in hit chance between a geddon and mega on the same target. The highest hit chance is not in optimal for neither and if you cant figure out why then you should go read some... ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
ArmyOfMe Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:24:00 - [62] ummm, lyria and merin, you two are starting to sound like a old married couple Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 3. The mega has around 50% hit chance (as max) at 12km while the geddon has a 50% hit chance (as max) at 19km. yes, we all know how spazzy is to fight in falloff range. the minmatar do that so it can't be that hard, now can it? joking aside, while the tracking may be somewhat "equal" (bit less in pulses), it's also true that you can hit pretty much 2 to 3 times farther than with blasters, and that makes them better in nearly all situations. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:29:00 - [64] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/10/2008 08:34:13 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 3. The mega has around 50% hit chance (as max) at 12km while the geddon has a 50% hit chance (as max) at 19km. yes, we all know how spazzy is to fight in falloff range. the minmatar do that so it can't be that hard, now can it? joking aside, while the tracking may be somewhat "equal" (bit less in pulses), it's also true that you can hit pretty much 2 to 3 times farther than with blasters, and that makes them better in nearly all situations. Yup, pulses can switch crystals hit farther. Blasters do more damage though. Lasers use more cap on the other hand and are harder to fit and eat up a bonus...I think its balanced. No? Its a bit like saying but when gallente ships change from blasters to rails they get alot more range gain then amarr ships when they switch from pulses to beams. Each race has its perks. Need to be at peace with them. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:48:00 - [65] I love you 107k ehp and 600 dps up to 20km armageddon
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.10.10 08:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think its balanced. No? No.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.11 03:53:00 - [67] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think its balanced. No? No. No Awesome EVE history Missiles ba-oom!
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 04:14:00 - [68] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/10/2008 04:14:28 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You're wrong. No, I'm not. Quote: 1. Take a mega, fit with neutrons and antimatter and compare to a geddon with megapulse and multies. Ok. Quote: 2. Let them hit an ABing cruiser, approx 260 sig and 500m/s transversal Interesting sig radius there. What the hell cruiser is that? I'd have expected to see ranges from the Stabber at 105 to a rigged cerb at 150.. which coincidentally goes faster than you're letting on. ;-) Quote: 3. The mega has around 50% hit chance (as max) at 12km while the geddon has a 50% hit chance (as max) at 19km. Actually a Mega will be doing about 9% of it's DPS at 12km... using a big heavy fat cruiser like a Cerb as the example. Quote: 4. This isnt even considering that a closer orbit would cause lesser speed and lesser transversal also. It shows that blasters actually hit BETTER then pulses at their optimal. You're right - at optimal it's doing about 2% DPS. Wow we hit so much better. Know what's funny? That's about the minumum you can get by with considering wrecking hits. Quote: 5. YOU ARE WRONG. Stop making stuff up that is not true, liang. No, sorry. For reference, Mega = 400 sig res, 500 optimal, 12500 falloff, tracking = 0.07442 Cerb = 147.91 sig and 531 m/s. -Liang Ed: Spelling --
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.11 07:42:00 - [69] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think its balanced. No? No. Not at all. Lasers should get a nerf, especially with the speed change.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.11 09:55:00 - [70] So is all that fuss about lasers now? * With 90% Webbers, the solution was "pack a web yourself" * With ultra fast ceptors and nanoships with MWD, the answer was "pack a heavy neut" Now that you "think" ABs + Scramblers are that impossible to counter, try packing some web + neut or even better some web + SB and stop whining! A, blasters are dead cause of nanos - NO, blasterthrons where one of the best and most feared ship in the Nano Era...the WHOLE of it...the speed nerf is a huge buff for the blasterthron's uber tracking...2-3 of those could make multiple Nano's run away, and kill 1-2 of those ingorant ones...but I guess it will never be enough for some unless u could bring down solo 10 ships worthing each more than yours, right? Whiners will be whiners, and irrelevant comparisons will dominate most paper-warrior-threads followed by clueless verdicts. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.11 10:05:00 - [71] Originally by: Diomidis the speed nerf is a huge buff for the blasterthron's uber tracking... The assumption here is that the blasterthron will ever GET into range. It won't. I'm too lazy to re-type the whole argument, so just read it here:
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.10.11 10:34:00 - [72] Originally by: Diomidis So is all that fuss about lasers now? * With 90% Webbers, the solution was "pack a web yourself" * With ultra fast ceptors and nanoships with MWD, the answer was "pack a heavy neut" Now that you "think" ABs + Scramblers are that impossible to counter, try packing some web + neut or even better some web + SB and stop whining! A, blasters are dead cause of nanos - NO, blasterthrons where one of the best and most feared ship in the Nano Era...the WHOLE of it...the speed nerf is a huge buff for the blasterthron's uber tracking...2-3 of those could make multiple Nano's run away, and kill 1-2 of those ingorant ones...but I guess it will never be enough for some unless u could bring down solo 10 ships worthing each more than yours, right? Whiners will be whiners, and irrelevant comparisons will dominate most paper-warrior-threads followed by clueless verdicts. Blasters will die a death because they don't give you real advantages over Torpedo's/Pulse Lasers outside of sitting completely stationary next to your target knocking seven bells out of each other, and they will be getting their effective tracking slashed by a factor of four... -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.11 10:49:00 - [73] Well, ppl have to understand that that uber 1000 dps "advantage" comes with it's cost: you will fight in fall-off. Just like Torps will hit the Blasterthron's 400m sig radius with 700m sig explosions = will never hit for full dmg! At least the blasterboat has the option to close the distance for more dmg. Also turret boats will hit fast targets, while even "slow" targets other than BSs and BCs can actually speed tank and sig-radiusly tank torps... Remember to look the other side of the coin: if the blasterthron gets it's tracking penalized, so will other turret boats - but since the blasterthron has the better tracking, this will actually mean something good in the long run... Just like the 4km/sec Vaga will be able to speedtank things just as good as Zealots, Curses, Rapiers etc do now with even less than that...ships specialized in fields will be penalized, sure, but won't be useless. And yes, maybe lasers will be too powerful, but that's not changing one fact: some ppl whine all the time: Falcons are overpowered, lasers are overpowered, lasers eat too much cap, you cannot fit the perfect tank and gank and speed at the same time, etc... DO YOU PPL ACTUALLY FIND ONE GOOD THING ABOUT THIS GAME? CAUSE THROUGH THE CONSTANT WHINING I TEND TO BELIEVE SOME SHOULD QUIT, after finding NOTHING to like anymore...it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to understand why so many ppl are being SO negative about EVE, while at the same time want convince others of being passionate about it... Yeah, EVE involves some S&M, I've been there - but you ppl are really sick staying in a "relationship" so bad for you... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.10.11 11:00:00 - [74] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 11/10/2008 11:05:28 a) Torp Raven's and Pulse 'Geddon's blow that 'uber 1000dps advantage' clean out of the water, right now, right on TQ. b) Torpedo signature radius is 450m, not 700 - that is full damage vs. any tier 3 Battleship, Raven, Scorpion, or full damage vs. any other Battleship from 0-30km with 1 target painter. c) Only the effective tracking of ships that rely on webs is getting hit. The 90% webs have until now, covered up the range flaw in the tracking formula, 60% webs completely expose this flaw: a unfit T1 cruiser for example, can orbit an Sisi Blasterthron all-day at 1-1.5km bar wrecking hits and drones. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Comander Brenni The Funhouse	Posted - 2008.10.11 11:20:00 - [75] ok MWD is a small warpdrive and ti is suposed to worck by depeting the wacuum aroud the ship it is installed on just as the warpdrive does... thus it soud be lodical to assume that a warpscrabler worck by chargin the same vacuum to hider the target vessil to initiate warp...hence a mwd soud use far mor cap. when it is hit by a scrabler so that it woud shutdown when the cap is depleted... to me this is the only logical way of nerfing the mwd with out killing it totaly... this woud open up a new can of worms and possebly a few new modules and shipbonuses possebly; 100mw mwd woud shut down faster if it was hit buy a 100mw warpscrbler... webnerfing maby but make AB's imune to webbers thus makin them more usful... dyslectily C.B.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.11 11:43:00 - [76] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 11/10/2008 11:43:37 The answer is tweaking signature radius on speed bonus ships and tech2 ships below command size. As well as other ships needing a compensation for mwf/web/speed nerfs. It replaces a speed tank with a singature radius tank. If you introduce a highslot signature radius decreasing module (remote, like remote sensor boosters or remote reppers), you can even expand on current possibilities with it. End situation (includiing the current speed/web nerf): viable af's, viable hacs, viable speed bonused low dmg ships. Again a trade-off between tank and gang. Speedtank equivalent possibilities for small gangs and solo'ers. Target painters re-validated. Webnerf effects on minnie ships (recons) compensated. Essentially a similar balance to now without the detrimental effects of ridiculous speeds. [center] Old blog
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.10.11 11:54:00 - [77] yeah what ever .. if its realistic or not.. man its a Game ..ok eve is one of the realistics game i know, but its only a game ;) so, mwd gets a huge nerfe + the scramerl shutdown thingi. in this case i realy think the gurillia warfare are nerf to death, or nearly death, . may suggestion are the idea with the AB/MWD script, maybe with some little changes. as it allready sad. its the only option, to make a tactic oribt speed, and approach /runaway possibility, without fitting a MWD and a AB in the same ship (fitting)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:01:00 - [78] My observatiosn are the same as always. MWD overheat is one of the major issues. When enemy can suddenly increase his speed 50% then any one that wants to control range needs to be 50% faster than enemy by default. That pushes people into extreme speed setups. Second MWD mandatory comes because of BUBBLES and warp out in 10 seconds, nothing else. NOTHING else. Make MWD have HALF their bonus while inside a bubble and done the Mandatory Warp Drive is gone. NO need for huge changes. Also make MWD a straight line movement device. Make it impsosible to change direction while MWD is active ( reduce turning capability to 10% of original value). This way MWD can still be fast whithout becoming what they are now. That would have the large advantage of not hurting blaster ships. Seems CCp still fail on understanding why people use MWD. Why a sniper BS uses MWD? to warp out faster when a titan appears and to get out of bubble before a titan appears. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:04:00 - [79] MWD/AB with scripts? * How will you implement the fitting requirements differential into a script? Will your LSE or armor repper come offline when you load the MWD script? Or will MWD fitting requirements become a standard? * Supposing the Cap Penalty kicks in as soon as you load the MWD script - if say, you have more of that 25% charge that will be gone, what happens when you unload it for regular AB? Just some thoughts... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.11 12:04:00 - [80] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Second MWD mandatory comes because of BUBBLES and warp out in 10 seconds, nothing else. NOTHING else. Make MWD have HALF their bonus while inside a bubble and done the Mandatory Warp Drive is gone. NO need for huge changes. So you want to buff bubbles now? Why? Originally by: Kagura Nikon Also make MWD a straight line movement device. Make it impsosible to change direction while MWD is active ( reduce turning capability to 10% of original value). This way MWD can still be fast whithout becoming what they are now. That would have the large advantage of not hurting blaster ships. It would totally murder close-range ships. Overshot = you get kicked out of webrange on the other end Originally by: Kagura Nikon Seems CCp still fail on understanding why people use MWD. Why a sniper BS uses MWD? to warp out faster when a titan appears and to get out of bubble before a titan appears. They of course totally misunderstand why people use MWDs - the reason is essentially mobility (with many more applications then you listed, btw). The reason ABs suck is because AB topspeed sucks. Make ABs give 500% speed boost when overheated = MWD is not mandatory anymore, you've got a choice. Some sort of speed mod, as long as there are speed mods in game, is mandatory. Period. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I think its balanced. No? No. Not at all. Lasers should get a nerf, especially with the speed change. I wonder what lyria wld have to say about that if it was announced x) Wouldnt be singing "nerf! nerf!" so much imo lol Awesome EVE history Missiles ba-oom!
ChalSto LOCKDOWN.	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:40:00 - [82] Edited by: ChalSto on 11/10/2008 16:40:11 I soo want to have the year 2006 back, tbh Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens."
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.11 16:50:00 - [83] Originally by: ChalSto Edited by: ChalSto on 11/10/2008 16:40:11 I soo want to have the year 2006 back, tbh I was caldari.. A big HEEELL NO! to that :P Though i reckon things are most balnced currently, some speed issues exist but no race is incredibly gimped like is often the case (sure minmi had some issues, but they had damn good ships too, now its just going..meh) Awesome EVE history Missiles ba-oom!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:44:00 - [84] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/10/2008 12:05:35 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Second MWD mandatory comes because of BUBBLES and warp out in 10 seconds, nothing else. NOTHING else. Make MWD have HALF their bonus while inside a bubble and done the Mandatory Warp Drive is gone. NO need for huge changes. So you want to buff bubbles now? Why? (I don't do 0.0 PvP, I'm a low-sec pirate, so I don't really know if bubbles do or don't need a buff, but I strongly suspect they don't. If you want to buff them, reasons why you think they deserve a buff should be listed however) No need to be a buff. Doing so you can easily compensate by diminishing the bubbles radius by about 30%. Will be faster to get out with AB than its today.. (so AB start to not look so low) while still slower to get out with MWD than its today. Its not a case that we need to keep the mobility capability. What we need is reduce the very high importance that mobility has right now. Its stupid that a ship NEED to have a speed mod. Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Kagura Nikon Also make MWD a straight line movement device. Make it impsosible to change direction while MWD is active ( reduce turning capability to 10% of original value). This way MWD can still be fast whithout becoming what they are now. That would have the large advantage of not hurting blaster ships. It would totally murder close-range ships. Overshot = you get kicked out of webrange on the other end Originally by: Kagura Nikon Seems CCp still fail on understanding why people use MWD. Why a sniper BS uses MWD? to warp out faster when a titan appears and to get out of bubble before a titan appears. They of course totally misunderstand why people use MWDs - the reason is essentially mobility (with many more applications then you listed, btw). The reason ABs suck is because AB topspeed sucks. Make ABs give 500% speed boost when overheated = MWD is not mandatory anymore, you've got a choice. Some sort of speed mod, as long as there are speed mods in game, is mandatory. Period. Would not murder close combat ships. Its very rare a blaster boat has chance to try 2 times to get close anyway. They would still be better than in the proposed nerf to speed. Boosting AB with overheat to 500% is just transfering the problem, then AB becomes mandatory. AB must be faster than they are now, but not that much. Make AB Base boost 150% speed (before skills). And make its overheat be 100% extra. Its enough. OF course all this proposals are not be be combined, are different ways to try make MWD not mandatory. Its good that combat arena will become bigger with the speed nerf. Snipers were already too weak. So keeping same mobility is not good (I am in the band that would love to see WTZ removed as well). My only issue is that the proposed changes make nothing to remove the mandatory from MWD. Making the AB into another MWD is not the way to solve anything. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.11 22:51:00 - [85] I'm totally up for change. If they make this game about he who brings more ships I'll simply leave.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.11 22:54:00 - [86] Originally by: Corstaad I'm totally up for change. If they make this game about he who brings more ships I'll simply leave. I'd ask if I can have your stuff but I'm beginning to suspect I wouldn't be around to use it. :p -Liang --
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv	Posted - 2008.10.11 23:04:00 - [87] I kinda think thats the point mmorgs aren't new and people realize there is no Holy Grail of a game. If they dumb down PvP this won't be the game alot of people came here for. Its much more then a simple speed change there taking out a valid/unvalid gang tictac.
Khalinea Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.11 23:50:00 - [88] People just need to accept the fact that eventually everything will be nerfed to the point that eve will be like flying a bunch of apollo command modules at each other with pointy sticks on the end. Incidentally at this point the only song that will play in game is Blue Danube
Sir SmokesABunch	Posted - 2008.10.21 18:08:00 - [89] I dont know whether this was thought about by the inspired minds at ccp. I have been on the test server and now amarr seem to have a MAJOR advantage. I dont know whether all ccp employees that play the game are amarr, but there is no balance in this....the balance has been tossed out the window. The once great minmatar are MUCH less effective...and considering i spent the last 6 months training the Minny skills...im pee'd off...YES the vaga will just fly apart like a paper airplane re-entering earth's orbit....

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