| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Angus Miner
   |
Posted - 2003.06.16 16:57:00 -
[1]
Even after the latest changes to damage modifiers, the combat speed of all engagements is far to fast. The advantage in this situation will always be with the aggressor, he who fires first wins. This is true 1v1, and is amplified for each ship added to the equation. Two of anything locking onto one of anything means no escape for the target. This assumes that the load out of these two ships is similar mine, not a newbie load out. The damage is being dealt so quickly that countermeasures are simply not possible.
Since it is still possible to deal 200 a shot hits every two seconds, just do the math. The best cruiser out there has 1200 base shields, lets boost that too 1500 to account for shield skills. It is still possible to kill this cruisers shields in 6-10 seconds or so. From my point of view 10 second fights are not amusing. Even less amusing is larger scale fights where several ships target the same person kill them instantly.
This post is observational, not a comment on any one play style. It is a tad frustrating to know that whoever fires first, will win. Perhaps, the real problem is that most people flying cruisers have not yet trained enough skills to make their ship survivable? Is there some skill set people are missing that would allow them to suck this kind of damage and last for say 45 seconds? Is there some load out of items and skills that would allow me to live for 45 seconds against say the best Moo ship setup?
I kind of doubt it, but I'll throw that question out there anyway.
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:00:00 -
[2]
What good are 200 damage a second shots if you're ECM'd and unable to warp away?
|
Setec
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:10:00 -
[3]
Actually combat can still last a good while now, especially when people have proper defensive measures on their ships. Shield management can go a long way. I had two cruisers shooting at my Moa yesterday and I never went below half shields in the 30 seconds or so that it took me to get away. When you throw in modules that jam or otherwise hinder the enemy ship you can extend fights quite a while.
Most people complaining about combat length are the ones who want PVP combat to be nothing but two people targeting each other, turning their guns on, and slugging it out. They want their poorly equipped new cruiser with nothing but a small shield booster or something for defense to last a minute or more against the best guns. That's just not going to happen.
Modules aren't always about offense. Defense is important. And I don't just mean increasing shield hitpoints--I mean being really prepared to inhibit their ability to kill you, while still being able to kill them.
___________________________________________
Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:17:00 -
[4]
I assume you carry backup targetting equipment to keep people from jamming you then eh Setec? =P
I'm a combat pilot in my corp, one of the people in charge of keeping space safe for our members, and I have yet to come across someone actually using a backup system to prevent me from jamming them. Granted I haven't done much pvp yet (space is surprisingly safe where we are =/ ), only faught 3 ships so far. But plenty of pirates ;)
|
Angus Miner
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:32:00 -
[5]
Good point. Although I have to see or hear about a good electronic warfare system that kept one these offensive juggernaughts at bay. The general feeling is that by the time you pile enough on to do the job reliably you wont have enough left to kill efficently. These means your hunting with a partner, and we are back to a 2 on 1 gang rape. Again, attack first and win situation.
I have been in at least 2 dozen engagments with players and have yet to have any electronic warfare play a roll in the outcome.
Edited by: Angus Miner on 16/06/2003 17:33:07
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:38:00 -
[6]
Yup, it's a sad fact that no one uses these systems to their full potential. The main problem with them is most work very well for 1 on 1, but as soon as you have 2 cruisers after you you lose the advantage. Like I said I've only been in pvp engagements 3 times so far but I've not lost once using ECM's. But all it takes is one sensor backup module and my advantage gets tossed out the window, fortunatly for me most people don't want to 'waste' the extra med slot ;)
|
Setec
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:46:00 -
[7]
I didn't mean just ECM... there are a lot of very effective defensive loadouts that most people don't think about or use. And it's not necessarily important to be able to kill fast, as long as you can hold someone still and keep them from killing you while you peck away at them with your peashooters. As for my personal loadout... that's secret. :)
___________________________________________
Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 17:48:00 -
[8]
I don't mean just ECM's either, but if I go on ranting about what else I use everyone will start to clue in ;P
|
Vachir
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 20:31:00 -
[9]
I'd really like to see an example loadout that could effectivly counter an all offense ship. Assuming you have the skill set, good guns, damage mods and sensors, I can't see how anyone can go defensive and survive. There are a lot of neat things in EW, and some of the might work, but I still agree that it shouldn't be possible to take out ships as fast as we can right now.
|
Alexander Drake
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 20:40:00 -
[10]
I think the problem with combat is that without previous scouting + bookmarking, you tend to drop out of warp directly under the guns of an opposing force. if you were able to set the distance away from a target when you dropped out of warp, I think we'd see alot more interesting engagements, don't you?
-=-------------------------------------------=-
"Violence is not the answer, it is the question. YES is the answer."
::CEO/Founder:: -=Draconis Heavy Industries=- |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 22:09:00 -
[11]
Vachir, if you want to meet me somewhere in EVE I could show you =P
|
dalman
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 22:25:00 -
[12]
Haven't tried it... I've been offline for more than a week.
But for Caldari... strength: shields, med-slots and missiles.
What is maximum shield-resistance? I heard something about 92%
Take a Caracal. 4 med-slots. Pretty good shield. With 3 shieldhardeners you will get resistance 70% 60% 92% 90%. Those 3 will take less energy than the capacitator recharges per second. Add a pirate-drop med-shield-booster..
Suppose an encounter with a pretty good offensive player. He carries 4 guns, each dealing 150 damage/2 seconds. It will then take in general about 40 seconds for that player to take down all of the shield and the cap of the other player. If only hybridweaps(kinetic and thermal), it will take about 65 seconds.
Since it's a Caracal, that player should fit 5 missilelauchers(draining no energy). Best way should be 1 EMP, 3 therm, 1 exp. All cruisemissiles. That other offensive player probably doesn't carry missiledefence. If that is the case, then before the shield of the Caracal is down, the other player is dead.
An Osprey or Moa can use the same for defence, but lacks missile-slots for offence then...
With a Blackbird(hmm, maybe probs with CPU or powergrid?) or a Caldari battleship, you can fit 5 shieldhardeners, giving you a 92% resistance to all sorts of damage(if that is max). It will then take minutes for a solo-player to take you out(well, not if BS versus Blackbird).
Of course, the Caldari player has to have some skills in Energy-management and energy-operations, and probably also Shield management and shield operations. Maybe also 1 or 2 power-diag-systems in the lo-slots.
This was most hypothetical... I haven't tried it. Since I don't have a Caracal(only MOAs and Blackbirds). And after 40 seconds one of the players should has escaped...
And I don't know how long it will take for the offensive player to run out of capacitator...
With a Scorpion BS a caldari-player may use 5 shieldhardeners(=max resistance)and a large shieldbooster and still have room for warp-scrambler and statis web...
*edit* I hope I didn't ruin it all for someone. I guess it must be fun, having someone with a really good offensive cruiser firing at you for 30 seconds, and still have close to 100% shield.
Edited by: dalman on 16/06/2003 22:55:00
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Uzuki
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 22:37:00 -
[13]
Now that MWD has been made fairly redundant in combat situations I'm seeing a lot of people turning to tactical shields. I'll give it 2-3 weeks before CCP nerf them for being "too popular" :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Horizon - "The Last Light You'll Ever See"
|
dalman
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 22:49:00 -
[14]
Nah, I don't think they will nerf it. Than they will have to nerf the offensive equipment and turrets. The reasons for that is:
1. You can't get 100%resistance(if I'm correctly informed, only 92%).
2. It takes 3-5 medslots + 1 for shieldbooster. And probably lo-slots for power-diag. That's ALOT of slots...
3. The critical point is having your capacitator recharge fast enough. So you can't use good weapons... And even with 5 launchers with cruise-missiles, it takes time to take an enemy down...
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
The Wretch
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 22:50:00 -
[15]
As long as you have whiners in numbers you will have the nerf....
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
|
dalman
|
Posted - 2003.06.16 23:04:00 -
[16]
If they nerf it I'll get really ****ed. The problem with the offensive setups was that a guy with a top-class cruiser warping/jumping in was killed by a solo-player before he could lock the other guy.
I don't see the problem if it takes 40 seconds for a good offensive player to make a good defensive player out of shield and cap.
After all, without targetingsystems it takes 10 seconds for a Caldari-cruiser exiting warp to target it's first enemy. Make it 15 seconds for a battleship(9s targeting-time + 5 or 6 secons "your ship is..."
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Kayosoni
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 00:50:00 -
[17]
Actually dal, I think it would be best to have a Caracal sit out at 25000m and use EW items (weapon inhibitors, target range inhibitors and such) and have the Moa use shield hardeners. The caracal could even use two Howys or 650mm artys and 3 Missile launchers (I use two 650s on mine...) and just pummel from beyond the range of the enemy. Cruise missile would be even better.
-----------------------------------
Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
Kayosoni
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 00:57:00 -
[18]
Something like:
http://www.siegedom.org/Files/images/KayosCaracal3.jpg
(obviously that's not going to be my final loadout... just built the ship last night...)
Edited by: Kayosoni on 17/06/2003 00:59:03
-----------------------------------
Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
dalman
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 02:18:00 -
[19]
yea. Of course.
My original post was a responce to the first post in the thread. The purpose was to show that a single player with good defence can beat a good single player with good weapons... I picked the Caracal since it can fit 5 missile-launchers, which lets the shieldmanipulators use all the energy. And besides, the Caracal has a quite good shield.
Personally, I don't have a Caracal, and I've never used more than 2 of these hardeners at once... My hangar only contains Moa, Blackbird and Badger(+some frigates). And now it's almost been 10 days since last time I was online. I don't even know if my corp excist :)
But your loadout on that Caracal seems very nice... Those target-prohibiting things are nice. I've had one used against me, and that wasn't very fun. Although it was a player trying to escape.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 02:45:00 -
[20]
I think Angus is right. Angus is a PVPer and I've played quite a few games with him, as a friend and an enemy and he knows what he is talking about.
Ships deal too much damage in this game, period. Shield hardeners and shield damage resist items most surely help, but without such items (which ARE very powerful) your cruiser will be wasted in a matter of seconds.
The problem is right now basically he who has the most damage output will win, almost every time. He who target locks first, will win, about every time. There is very little tactics involved, ECM really isn't much of a factor in pvp battles unless you're ganking people solo and trying to webify and warp jam them so they can't reach a jumpgate. =P
Honestly for the time invested to get a cruiser, you shouldn't have to worry about losing it in 10 seconds.. atleast not in a 1v1 engagement. It just seems silly to me that weeks of work can be lost so quickly to another player.. it should take atleast 40seconds to destroy another cruiser, even with a great damage loadout, imo.
Sorry if I sound like a whiner or anything but quite honestly I've been a PvPer for years now and I find that EVE's PvP is very imbalanced right now.
I really think the games PvP would be more enjoyable if it lasted longer.. and it took more time to destroy another ship. Right now, it's just not fun to watch cruisers go "pop" every few seconds.. bleh.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kayosoni
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 02:46:00 -
[21]
Actually, a Moa using a majority of Projectile guns with EMP ammo and 3 or 4 shield hardeners would work just as well the Caracal with 5 missile launchers and shield hardeners, since projectile guns use nill capacitor and can do just about the same damage as a Heavy Beam with Multi and a 250mm rail with Antimatter. And then if your skills are high enouph, you can afford to have some guns that use cap, and a bunch of med items using cap too, though it works a lot better with a wing or gang, not 1v1.
And I will agree that battles are too short. It's mostly a matter of who targets who first, and then turns on all their modules (or whichever are needed.)
Edited by: Kayosoni on 17/06/2003 02:48:32
-----------------------------------
Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server |
Ywev
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 04:27:00 -
[22]
Hmm you must be new, since you basically give a newbie approach to stuff and dont look at all available options. Like for example, what if you had a shield booster?!?!?! oh my god, what is that, yes, it replenshes your shields in combat! OMG who thought of that?!?!. ok, back, you know what range your optimal firing is from, so use it to your advantage.
Pod ya later..
Ywev
|
Ozium
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 06:08:00 -
[23]
Yes, a shield booster really helps. Considering you can drop someones shields completely in ONE salvo, try again.
|
Axelay
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 06:15:00 -
[24]
Apart from small frigates I have NEVER dropped someones shields in one salvo.
Even BEFORE the patch.
So I dunno what you are smoking dude...
Now that my weapons do about half the amount of damage that they use to do, I would be impressed to see anyones shields dropping in one salvo of anything short of a full 8 turret burst from a bship fitted with tachyon lasers.
_____
m0o
|
Damon Vile
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 06:35:00 -
[25]
You can still drop a top end cruisers shields in 1 slavo if you get a somewhat lucky set of hits. ( not all wreaking :P )
From 200-400/shot/gun x4 won't make for a long battle if they can't break your lock. OFC this cruiser is dead if it comes up against an ECM ship.
But rather then nerf weapons again I'd say leave it for a few weeks and see what happens. If it's still the under 30 second combat maybe they should think about giving all ships a 10-25% shield/armor boost.
IMO it's wa(aaaa)y too easy to get away from combat as it is. Cutting weapon damage won't make the game more fun.
you want to make the game more intresting stop letting ppl come out of warp doing 2000m/s if they have a MWD. Bring them down to their normal speed and let them Boost from there. They'll still be able to run a gate if they're smart but they won't do it untouched.
|
Chai N'Dorr
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 09:56:00 -
[26]
I haven't tested my 'skills' against players yet, but I am in the process of building a very fast and manoeuverable ship. Dodge around a lot to avoid being hit.
No idea if it's viable and I'm probable toast against weapons with large area affects. But it'll sure be nice trying it.
|
Madcow
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 11:39:00 -
[27]
lol I am just laughing about reading that the ships are now beateble too fast and back in early beta combat took too long several minutes.
______________________
I am just a crazy cow |
Vachir
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 15:54:00 -
[28]
Under the old system I've seen corp mates lose their whole ship in one salvo (MOA cruisers). I don't think that's possible anymore, but given 200 damage guns firing at a 2 second rate, even at 90% damage resistance you've only got maybe 30 seconds before your shields go down, give or take some for damage variance and other shield skills. I would rather see combat take longer so there's more time for more creative module layouts to come into play.
|
Nomaar
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 18:04:00 -
[29]
CCP should take a lesson from Darkspace, a MMO space game that really got it right when it comes to PvP balance. Battles take time in that game, involve strategy and energy management and are enjoyable. Combat in EVE right now is out of whack and frustrating. There's no reason for the imbalance between weapon damage and defense.
|
BoneDancer
|
Posted - 2003.06.17 18:29:00 -
[30]
I'm new. I started a month ago and had no prior beta experience. I've played the hell out of the game and have a pretty tight crew of guys that are all VERY competitive. We've had several fight encounters with folks and while they have had lots of adreneline, they have had little tactics.
The closest thing we've seen to tactics is people camping zone lines to stations. I've never seen a battle turn into a cat and mouse where one ship uses his range to beat another. I've never seen a electronic warfar guy disable a heave offensive player. I have however seen a whole TON of one shot deaths to and from a variety of players.
Other then the over importance of damage in the game today, my biggest complain is the LACK of intel returned to the killer. I want to see in the logs EMP damage for 120, SmartBomb blast for xxx, etc. Without this intel how can players adapt and learn from their mistakes?
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |