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How I would have handled the Ghost Training messaging

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Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:54:00 - [1] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 17:56:55 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 17:56:02 Please note this thread is intended to discuss how the Ghost Training change was handled, not the actual change. There is an official discussion thread on that topic already over in Info Portal; feel free to contribute to it if that is your beef. As a professional software developer who is occasionally called upon to provide communications to customers, I feel I have a certain level of knowledge about how to indicate changes to customers. In my view, the recent Ghost Training messaging did not handle this very well, as illustrated by quite a few threads on the subject. Rather than tell CCP how to do their job, I will merely agree to disagree, and rather than state they did it 'wrong', I would have done it 'differently' (albeit I am commenting here with hindsight). To illustrate my point, here are a few guidelines I follow, and had they been followed, I personally would have been, well if not happy then at least less aggrieved by the way things were handled. Call A Spade A Spade Contrary to many indications, the EVE community is actually very intelligent on average, and thus any marketing information that goes to them really ought to get things straight, and tell it like it is. Vague and ambiguous statements are fine for conceptual work; they can help prompt new and exciting ideas; indeed I've missed that aspect where devs would say 'how about this?', but that's by the by. Concrete unnegotiable changes should be laid down in black and white, and the reasons for them doubly so. Stating this change is fixing a bug, or updating an unintended feature, is simply not going to go down well. It's been stated by CCP's own player guide that the original behaviour was an expected feature. Call this change what it is - a change. Making it look like a bugfix merely makes CCP look even less efficient (5 years for a bugfix is pretty slow even by my company's standards, where we recently did a 'Jita' and fixed a usability bug that had been in for 3 years), and sends some very bad messages. Depending on how you view it, this sudden reversal of current game mechanics after five years either states 'new person in charge, undoing what they think their predecessor did wrong' or 'CCP can't agree on this, because one group has said it's a feature, another group says it's a bug'. Neither is a good message to send. Provide Warning Whilst I'm all for speedy CCP, particularly on bugfixes, changing a mechanic that potentially affects the entire community is not something to rush at. To CCP's great credit, the speed changes still aren't in, and clearly further thought is going on from what the live dev blog implied. Why was this not followed in this change, with a mere 48 hours notice? Timing Timing, as they say, is everything. With a series of quite controversial changes under its belt already, and an upcoming major industrial expansion (we hope), I am surprised that CCP felt now was a good time to make this change. The veteran community is already reeling from changes, many are describing lack of trust in CCP, and all in all, now would be a great time to build bridges, not burn them. Continued in next post... (after the combobreaking) ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:55:00 - [2] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 14/10/2008 17:55:01 Can I combobreak this one? Will there be an epic length post? __________ Sig by Neth'Rae Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? FFFFFF
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 17:58:02 Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 17:56:23 Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Can I combobreak this one? No Provide Good Reasoning In the same vein as Call a Spade a Spade, intelligent people will support logical reasoning, often even if they disagree with it philosophically. The blog on the change barely provides any reason at all, hinting at a sudden surge in Ghost Training, and subtle hints at database load. It failed totally to take account of the fact that the entire globe is currently experiencing quite a bit of financial turmoil and just possibly the surge is due to that. Whatever happened to watching and waiting? If the real motivation was simply ensuring CCP's financial future in a time of financial crisis, then say that! Any employee currently still employed can get behind the notion of a business ensuring its financial future. Don't dress it up in notions of fairness or database load, because if those were the problems, this would have been fixed a long time ago or never done in the first place. Provide Reassurance This change sets a series of precedents. Lightning changes, little community involvement or warning, major changes across the entire community to the way EVE has always been, these are not things to do lightly. Reassuring your customers that yes you do listen, that yes this change is unusual, and here's why... these are good PR moves. On top of that, we are now left in the dark as to what other changes you'll make to inactive accounts. Skill training is but one activity that takes place on inactive accounts, what about all the myriad others that will no doubt continue to load your database? Provide Sympathy Ignoring all the metagaming for a moment, this change hits people of low income at a time when finances are most in question. Expressing a little sympathy wouldn't have hurt. There, my two cents. Apologies for the long post, apologies for beating a dead horse, but I felt it needed to be said. There, you can ignore it now. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Can I combobreak this one? No Curses __________ Sig by Neth'Rae Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? FFFFFF
Ramone E'lrof	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [5] should have typed it out first
Aioa Planetary Assault Systems	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:56:00 - [6] Can it please not be about ghost training? --
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 17:58:51 Originally by: Aioa Can it please not be about ghost training? Sorry but look on the bright side, you don't have to read it. Originally by: Ramone E'lrof should have typed it out first I did, the current forum load means it doesn't let you post two posts immediately following each other. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Taedrin Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:12:00 - [8] Actually, the OP has covered just about everything I feel about this whole thing.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Taedrin Actually, the OP has covered just about everything I feel about this whole thing. Well at least I'm not the only one then. Mission accomplished. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Sarin Adler Caldari Dark Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:51:00 - [10] Agree too here, spot on. ---
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:52:00 - [11] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 18:52:40 I would've removed the option, changed the player guide, waved a bunch of cash-bags at the ones leaving and said "I don't care alalalaaaaaa!! Hihihi!!!" and pass out in a pile of bunnies and scotch. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 18:52:40 I would've removed the option, changed the player guide, waved a bunch of cash-bags at the ones leaving and said "I don't care alalalaaaaaa!! Hihihi!!!" and pass out in a pile of bunnies and scotch. At least you're honest, if really messed up in the head __________ Sig by Neth'Rae Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? FFFFFF
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth It's been stated by CCP's own player guide that the original behaviour was an expected feature. No it hasn't. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 18:52:40 I would've removed the option, changed the player guide, waved a bunch of cash-bags at the ones leaving and said "I don't care alalalaaaaaa!! Hihihi!!!" and pass out in a pile of bunnies and scotch. This reminds me of that Simpsons quote 'How do you sleep at night?' 'On top of a pile of money surrounded by many beautiful ladies' ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 18:52:40 I would've removed the option, changed the player guide, waved a bunch of cash-bags at the ones leaving and said "I don't care alalalaaaaaa!! Hihihi!!!" and pass out in a pile of bunnies and scotch. At least you're honest, if really messed up in the head Just had to face the fact that i have a head to be messed up in My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 19:05:14 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Astria Tiphareth It's been stated by CCP's own player guide that the original behaviour was an expected feature. No it hasn't. Yes it has. They fixed it today, conveniently enough. It stated quite categorically, and has been quoted in the appropriate Information Portal thread, that skills would continue to train whilst the account is inactive. You don't write new player documentation about a bug or unintended feature and make it appear like everything is normal; you fix it or indicate that it is a bug. Anyway your point is irrelevant to the main focus of the thread, that of poor communication by CCP. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:04:00 - [17] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 19:04:25 Got to love the EVE forums under load - double posts galore. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Baldour Ngarr Interwarp Plexus Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Astria Tiphareth It's been stated by CCP's own player guide that the original behaviour was an expected feature. No it hasn't. Yes it has. ..It stated quite categorically, and has been quoted in the appropriate Information Portal thread, that skills would continue to train whilst the account is inactive. So I was right. It never did, it doesn't now, and it never will say that that was supposed to happen. It just recorded that it actually did so. Now next time you want to contradict me, try making sure you're not completely and uttelry wrong first. You won't look such a moron that way. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Astria Tiphareth Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Astria Tiphareth It's been stated by CCP's own player guide that the original behaviour was an expected feature. No it hasn't. Yes it has. They fixed it today, conveniently enough. It stated quite categorically, and has been quoted in the appropriate Information Portal thread, that skills would continue to train whilst the account is inactive. You don't write new player documentation about a bug or unintended feature and make it appear like everything is normal; you fix it or indicate that it is a bug. Anyway your point is irrelevant to the main focus of the thread, that of poor communcation by CCP. They fixed it, why? Because it's no longer a viable option. If they hadn't announced that "we're removing it", then edited the guide, THEN it would be lying. It was simply stating the situation AT THE TIME on how training works with inactive accounts. If they removed mining, and then removed it from the player guide to keep it up to date, it would be a-ok. So is this. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 18:52:40 I would've removed the option, changed the player guide, waved a bunch of cash-bags at the ones leaving and said "I don't care alalalaaaaaa!! Hihihi!!!" and pass out in a pile of bunnies and scotch. Even that would have been quite a lot better than the way CCP handled it. I mean that quite sincerely.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:08:00 - [21] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 19:13:16 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr So I was right. It never did, it doesn't now, and it never will say that that was supposed to happen. It just recorded that it actually did so. Now next time you want to contradict me, try making sure you're not completely and uttelry wrong first. You won't look such a moron that way. Er no, try reading before you go calling people names, you ignorant excuse for a human being. It stated without mentioning that this was an unexpected side-effect that might go away, for five years, that this was the way the game is. You don't change that and call it a bug-fix, you call it a change. As for your amusing arrogant statement about me contradicting you, as if you're always right, we may be arguing over semantics, which you may not care about, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong. Welcome to the world of adulthood, where things aren't black and white. Edit: Additionally, if you go arguing about what things should be supposed to be, then, well, actually none of the game is covered by that and we should never claim anything about EVE ever again. Nowhere does any player guide or CCP statement indicate how things are supposed to be. I focused purely on the way this was communicated - in my view badly. You can claim I'm wrong all you like, but perception is the core issue here, not what CCP defined as truth. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:09:00 - [22] Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 14/10/2008 19:10:15 Oh ffs, stop double-posting - I only clicked Submit once, I expect one post, it's not hard. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Sheriff Jones They fixed it, why? Because it's no longer a viable option. If they hadn't announced that "we're removing it", then edited the guide, THEN it would be lying. It was simply stating the situation AT THE TIME on how training works with inactive accounts. If they removed mining, and then removed it from the player guide to keep it up to date, it would be a-ok. So is this. Actually I wasn't suggesting some sort of sinister motive - now is the right time to update the guide, the old version of the guide however is being used, I think correctly, to indicate that this was the old behaviour, for a long period, and no-one up until today ever suggested anything was wrong with it. It goes back to what I was trying to explain to Mr Unpleasant earlier in the thread - nowhere have CCP ever said what is supposed to happen in EVE except very rarely in dev blogs. They have given hints, suggestions, but overall a picture has formed. Though we're getting very hung-up on a tiny part of what I posted about, my point is that you don't just say 'well, we always meant to fix that, but just haven't got around to it for 5 years'. How about tomorrow they say 'well, actually we never meant CONCORD to just work in high-sec, it'll be introduced in low-sec as well'? The problem I am talking about isn't the change, it's the way it's been handled. People can nit-pick all they want but I think the core of what I said remains true. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Tatianna	Posted - 2008.10.14 21:58:00 - [24] The most upsetting part of the whole deal is the fact that they lied about their reasons for removing it and than retracted to a different statement. Not only that, but they hid the 90 page thread about it really deep as to avoid bad PR. Bad bad bad :(
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:02:00 - [25] Very true, i agree completely.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:32:00 - [26] This is a great constructive post. However I think CCP did on a few of your points. Call A Spade A Spade: Check minus. CCP should've gone into move detail, but it does look like a rushed dev blog Provide Warning: Check minus. Not sure why CCP is rushing this Timing: Check plus. CCP said why they are doing it now Provide Good Reasoning: Check plus. Reasoning is all over the dev blog. It has nothing to do with the worldwide financial situation. If you think CCP is lying that is your opinion. But in terms of communication CCP did provide good reasoning. Provide Reassurance: Check minus Provide Sympathy: Check minus So that is 4x check minus and 2x check plus which is a check minus minus overall for CCP. Not very good. I think a little leeway should be given as this was obviously a rushed dev blog, but still your notes for CCP to improve their communications are well said. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:47:00 - [27] Actually, how I would have handled it... the devblog that SHOULD have been... DEVBLOG : Yes, the global economic crisis affects us too Since increasing numbers of you have been abusing the train-with-no-subscription feature more and more recently in combination with other feature we might be also forced to discontinue soon (like RP gathering on inactive accounts), acounting suggested to ~~milk it for whatever's worth~~ promote features which attract people to pay more. You know, suggested, as in "I suggest you do this or get fired". Sorry guys. While we (as the developers) might not necessarily agree with accounting over this (we believe it would actually DECREASE income, but you can't argue with accountants), we really had no choice. So, again, sorry guys, this goes way over our heads. ___ Now, THAT should have been the devblog about this. _ Alternate resist display \|\| Mission reward revamp \|\| better nanofix
CALUGARU Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:57:00 - [28] if global echonomics fail, eve fails. WE MUST NOT let that happean! so gogo start digging for gold!!! ______________________ I like pie. No really, i do.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:05:00 - [29] I've mathematically determined that the only way to produce less whine would have been to get me drunk before hand Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Piper Halliwell Minmatar Phantom Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:07:00 - [30] IBTL Please keep all Ghost Training discussion in this thread -------------------- You've got a gun, I've got a gun, Let's write a tragic ending.

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