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The 2nd poll will define the (ir)relevance of the CSM

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Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.11.27 11:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Issler Dainze A lot of validity to the comments and concerns voiced in this thread. All I can add is I really will try to make my participation in the CSM something positive for the pilots of Eve. I can't say yet is that is possible but I will make my best effort. Issler Hmm, i dont think u can do anything in this way..its still CCPs look onto u guys and what they should do with ideas u supported.. And its not like u can demand from CCP anything, and tbh, i dont think they give a f*ck if anybody from CSM would sign in resignation in case chosen thing doesnt go through.. Like I said: just another crowd control tool..CCP never got any intentions on listening to our ideas, be it directly expressed in suggestions forum or via CSM support. But they managed to get some of those whines into "readable" topics and into some queue with big large "maybe we will listen if u get enough supporters" stamp onto it.. Good example was that thread about against nano nerf and "whine" from bellum about blasters beeing useless now.. ----- TCODA corporation is recruiting! TCODA is awesome!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.11.27 12:05:00 - [32] Why not give the new CSM a chance to prove themselves before spouting such counter-productivity?
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.11.27 13:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Why not give the new CSM a chance to prove themselves before spouting such counter-productivity? Because it threatens those who want to return to the 'he who whines loudest and longest wins all' days, in the mistaken belief that that is actually how it worked before?
Cory Trevor Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:25:00 - [34] I'm just curious - some of you opposing the CSM, what exactly did you expect from them? They're not magicians, they're not full-on CCP employees, CCP hasn't ceded decision making power to them. Those of you whining about the Nano Nerf for example - do you seriously think things like balance issues should be put to a vote? That'd just split the camp in two, between "I fly a nano ship" and "I got killed by a nano ship", neither of which have any real relevance to the issue and how it affects the vision of the game CCP has. There are some things that are just going to be beyond the player's control, and new balance changes are one of them. Now, if the changes have been in play for a while and serious issues develop, then bring THOSE issues to attention and you might have some success. I look at the CSM this way - at absolute worst, they're changing nothing and it's all a waste of time. But really, whose time is being wasted? CCP's time? They're running the CSM again so clearly they feel it's worthwhile. The candidate's time? There were several candidates who have run again, so clearly to them it's worthwhile. Now, at best, the CSM is capable of bringing ideas to CCP that they may not have thought of - thousands of heads are better than the few they have there, and it's natural that the players will think of things that CCP just may not have even considered. Whether the ideas are accepted or rejected, it's a good thing that they're even being heard. Sorry for this wall of text, but it's just so silly to see strong opposition to such a harmless concept.Just because your pet idea isn't being pushed through doesn't mean nobody's listening.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:39:00 - [35] /Me Watches and listens Good to see an old corpie on eve-o In the mean time, you can vist my blog... ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.11.27 14:43:00 - [36] Originally by: Pattern Clarc In the mean time, you can vist my blog... It's good to see you working on your ideas - I look forward to them turning into proposals. The areas they are addressing are quite important.
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.11.27 15:56:00 - [37] /warning long long verbose post and i can't be asked to spell check or check grammer neither /endwarning "The 2nd poll will define the (ir)relevance of the CSM" Perhaps not, in fact i doubt that even the 3rd, 4th or even 23rd poll will define the CSM. Now before we start and while the trolls are still hopefully reading, i believe the CSM is a good thing a very good thing, i just think it's implementation was misjudged. CCP's attempt to bring the players voice to the table via a democratically elected panel is revolutionary, but is doomed to irrelavence as no revolution gave birth to it. I feel, and i'm sure you'll all argue with me at length, there are TWO problems standing between the CSM and it's defining moment. But before we get into that the first question should be 'why does it need a defining monment'? Democracy, in all it's varied guises and shapes, has always been a solution to a problem (and not a solution to every problem) and that problem has always been ... being uncomfortable. Forget the right to free speech, forget the right to self-determination, for get human rights and justice. The main, and in a lot of cases the only, concern for most people is simply is their life comfortable or not. Give someone enough food, shelter, recreation and the slightest glimmer of being able to fullfil their material dreams and you can have any form of government you want. So typically Democratic insitutes evolve because enough people are uncomfortable with their lives to over turn the exsisting order. I cannot personally think of a single instance of a dictatorship sponsaniously standing down in favour of a democracy. In all case either internal or external focres are applied to remove the old problem, internal pressure being prefferable as when democracy is externally forced upon a regieme it often leads to failure, if you want examples just turn on any news channel. This application of force, and from now on i will only be talking about internal forces not external foces, are galvenised by a defining moment, a moment that brings unity and resolve of purpose, without this catalyst the odds arn't in your favour. As a side note these defining moments which bring a nation together are also temporay, if you don't believe me look at election turnouts for almost any '1st world' nation and you will see a steady decline in voter turn out since the time the ability to vote was won. You will probably argue that EvE has had that defining moment. You'll say something about alligations of GM's aiding certain alliances etc etc etc. But in doing so you'll be ignoring one main fact, that incident did not make the playerbase of EvE any less comfortable than they already were. It was a scandal and a disgrace, but more importantly it only eaffected a small, but vocal, minority of the player base. You'll no doubt agrue how it affected everyone, but the reality of the situation is that if the majority of the player base beileve that what they can see harms them. So no defining moment has occured and we have a CSM structure waiting to rise to the occasion when it happens, and it will.
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.11.27 15:57:00 - [38] My second point follows on from an observation in my first point. Only what you can see can harm you, or inversley what you cannot see cannot harm you. So the second major stumbling block to CSM relavence is visibility to the playerbase. At the moment the CSM has only really two ways to communicate with the playerbase en masse, either by the forums (which is a two way procress with the CSM and the players being able to communicate with each other) or the web page (a one way process, realistically information can only be distributed via it). This i suspect is a major barrier to the CSM being able to communicate in a meaningful way with the playerbase. I strongly suggest that the majoirty of the playerbase (if not the vast majority) have not been to the forums, and those who have have read enough never to return. I would also suggest that the number of players using the webpage on a regular basis is very small as well.Again i'm sure figures can be provided and explain as to why this is not the case, although most of these figures will range from the down right wrong to the wildly innacurate. Therefore for the CSM to become 'relavent' (and i use that term loosely) to the vast majority of the playerbase the CSM itself must break the stranglehold the forums has on it's operation. The how and why i leave to well meaning people with even more time on theor hands than i. Once these two problems are over come the CSM will come into it's own and have an opportunity to shine bright in the lives of the playerbase, until then they will toil on under near constant and unwarrented attack, doing the best they are able to do with the limited authority they have.
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Cory Trevor I look at the CSM this way - at absolute worst, they're changing nothing and it's all a waste of time. Well after the last CSM took "credit" for the suicide ganking nerf I'd say at absolute worst they will be listened to and we can look forward to such excellent ideas as Bunyip's alliance deployable gate guns in 0.0.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.11.27 16:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Pax Ratlin I cannot personally think of a single instance of a dictatorship sponsaniously standing down in favour of a democracy. In all case either internal or external focres are applied to remove the old problem, internal pressure being prefferable as when democracy is externally forced upon a regieme it often leads to failure, if you want examples just turn on any news channel. Bhutan did in 2003, iirc.
Bunyip	Posted - 2008.11.27 18:57:00 - [41] Originally by: Pax Ratlin At the moment the CSM has only really two ways to communicate with the playerbase en masse, either by the forums (which is a two way procress with the CSM and the players being able to communicate with each other) or the web page (a one way process, realistically information can only be distributed via it). This i suspect is a major barrier to the CSM being able to communicate in a meaningful way with the playerbase. I can't really disagree that this is how the first CSM worked, but we're working to change that. I've already implemented a channel where I can answer any questions/review ideas on forums/hear new ideas. I can't guarantee that the other candidates will join me on the channel, but the CSM is still a diamond in the rough, being refined and improved. FYI, the channel is called CSM Chat. Feel free to join it and address any issues you feel deserve it to me and perhaps my other candidates (it's up to them). The CSM does have some minor power, but we need your input on ideas and other issues before they can be instituted. TL;DR: Don't throw us out yet. Let us prove our capabilities to you as we refine who and what the CSM is and it's relation to the playerbase. -Bunyip "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.
Semkhet The Priory	Posted - 2008.11.27 19:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Pax Ratlin Cute post CCP is attempting to promote within EvE a souped-down version of REPRESENTATIVE democracy limited to CONSULTATIVE views WHEN and WHERE it pleases them, which in turn is just a mass delusion deflecting the impact that EvE login polls could induce. I'm not against the CSM because it exists, if folks have enough free time to spend like that it's certainly none of my business to tell them if what they're doing is a futile exercise or not. I'm against the CSM as concept aiming supposedly at bringing CCP closer to the player's opinions on a variety of issues. It's PR plain and simple since there are much more cheaper and efficient methods suitable to provide extremely precise results and on a much wider statistical base. But the problem for CCP is that integrating login polls would create a relatively factual and documented set of data about the majoritary opinions of players on the issues at hand, and they would run into trouble as soon players would significantly diverge on a given point from CCP's position. What would they do ? Release the data without taking into account these opinions later on would sunk their image. Release the data and later on take into account these opinions would create a precedent where players would expect said degree of compliance on every major issue. Perform the poll and not release the data would induce suspicion, etc... That's why you folks get the CSM. It's a convenient solution when you don't really care. Interested players get the illusion that they can somehow influence the game by conveying some opinions, and CCP reserves the right to care about the CSM like the socks of their office cleaner grandma. There are plenty of consultative commissions in RL, either in private or government spheres. Unfortunately, in most cases, these commissions are just a waste of time and resources. Anyone thinking on problems without enjoying the tiniest shadow of executive authority or guarantee that his opinions will be considered is as efficient in the achievement of a concrete solution than a guy making crosswords when pooing. You may have fun at it, but that's it...
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.11.27 20:14:00 - [43] Originally by: Semkhet CCP is attempting to promote within EvE a souped-down version of REPRESENTATIVE democracy limited to CONSULTATIVE views WHEN and WHERE it pleases them, which in turn is just a mass delusion deflecting the impact that EvE login polls could induce. One can argue that about any major implementation of democracy, but then i also tend to beileve that centralized democracies are the route of all evil, but hey that's just me. Originally by: Semkhet I'm against the CSM as concept aiming supposedly at bringing CCP closer to the player's opinions on a variety of issues. It's PR plain and simple since there are much more cheaper and efficient methods suitable to provide extremely precise results and on a much wider statistical base. Ignoring the faults with the system i can't enirely agree with you here, i believe that the CSM is a compromise between the two interests. I find it hard to believe that CCP are capable of so cold, cynical and ultimatly logical thinking as to purely create the CSM for PR purposes, as any company capable of think in such ruthless terms would at least be able to release a bug free game Originally by: Semkhet But the problem for CCP is that integrating login polls would create a relatively factual and documented set of data about the majoritary opinions of players on the issues at hand, and they would run into trouble as soon players would significantly diverge on a given point from CCP's position. What would they do ? Release the data without taking into account these opinions later on would sunk their image. Release the data and later on take into account these opinions would create a precedent where players would expect said degree of compliance on every major issue. Perform the poll and not release the data would induce suspicion, etc... Couldn't agree more, but then were talking about a buisness not a government and at the end of the day CCP has to do what's best for CCP not the player base, although bare in mind that there interests are not always mutally exclusive. Originally by: Semkhet Anyone thinking on problems without enjoying the tiniest shadow of executive authority or guarantee that his opinions will be considered is as efficient in the achievement of a concrete solution than a guy making crosswords when pooing. You may have fun at it, but that's it... But once the system is in place it can be altered, potentially for the better, and lets face it the old adage is true 'there are no guarantee's in life'. As someone very intelligent to me once said .... "it is easier to change something from within than to do from without"
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.09 06:56:00 - [44] Edited by: Cyprus Black on 09/12/2008 07:05:24 Originally by: Semkhet Actually if CCP had balls, it wouldn't have been hard to add as poll option something in the line of "I vote against the CSM". Then maybe we would have achieved a much better turnout, but with probably the opposite results than those expected by CSM supporters... This completely. The CSMs atm are a joke PR stunt and it always makes me laugh to see them believing they "make a difference". Bring in the ingame polls and we'll see radically different issues brought up. The CSMs certainly aren't representing general player interests. They're only representing the very tiny minority who voted for them. ___________________________________________________ The Escapist: EvE Online video review.
Nova Satar Shadow Company	Posted - 2008.12.28 11:28:00 - [45] Edited by: Nova Satar on 28/12/2008 11:31:56 from my brief perspective... the CSM mean very very little and have absolutley no effect on what happens in EVE. If CCP wanted to hear their customers opinions why don't they go and read the forums? Theres so many long and detailed threads with discussions about issues and possible alterations. It seems that this forum is just here so people don't 'spam' the rest of the forum becuase they think posting here has an affect... In other words, i agree with the OP EDIT: Bunyip and Others: If you want to prove your ability to help, please go and read 'Ships and Modules' 'Technology Lab' 'EVE General Discussion' and many more. I garuntee you that on the first page of every forum there will be a multiple page thread with concerns to an issue with the game and its balance. The only reason they arent posted here, is becuase that would be a waste of time becuase the people that share those opinions dont bother to read this place
Roymundo Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.12.29 00:12:00 - [46] Originally by: Issler Dainze A lot of validity to the comments and concerns voiced in this thread. All I can add is I really will try to make my participation in the CSM something positive for the pilots of Eve. I can't say yet is that is possible but I will make my best effort. Issler the best thing you can do is every single time you talk to ccp, or the rest of the csm, no matter how small and insignificant the issue, you tell us about it. what you talked about, your and their reactions, and everything in between. if you want people to take the csm seriously, you need to start making us believe you are doing the job we voted you in for.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:12:00 - [47] this is in by no way related to my alliance / corp.. But honestly the whole CSM is a joke, I seriously have yet to see any fruit to come from this. In the end the decision is CCP's and CCP will do as how CCP see's fit. now if the roles were to be reversed then I could see some validity to this. but not until then. I cannot see 1 thing CCP has actually listened to and made a change in the favor of what was voted for. ie: nano-nerfs.. 30+ pages of people saying dont nerf nano's and yet what do they do the exact opposite? and one is to take CCP seriously with the CSM? as it is now, CSM = PR Stunt with Fluff and whoo ha..
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.22 06:47:00 - [48] Originally by: EliteSlave this is in by no way related to my alliance / corp.. But honestly the whole CSM is a joke, I seriously have yet to see any fruit to come from this. In the end the decision is CCP's and CCP will do as how CCP see's fit. now if the roles were to be reversed then I could see some validity to this. but not until then. I cannot see 1 thing CCP has actually listened to and made a change in the favor of what was voted for. ie: nano-nerfs.. 30+ pages of people saying dont nerf nano's and yet what do they do the exact opposite? and one is to take CCP seriously with the CSM? as it is now, CSM = PR Stunt with Fluff and whoo ha..[/quote I'm sorry. But I'm going to be a bit blunt here: You are obviously not reading dev-blogs at all. In november there was a dev-blog on what the first CSM did of big things. If you then actually also read the meeting minutes from the CSM2-CCP meetings from last week, you would realize how much the CSM has actually influenced. Once the full minutes are out, it could quite possibly blow your mind. A WHOLE lot of things HAVE actually been fixed.
Red 7	Posted - 2009.01.22 10:55:00 - [49] Then post the minutes. And please refrain from putting items on the agenda such as General CSM Operation. Any feelings of impotence you have doesn't warrent a place on the agenda for discussions with CCP and only harms the perception of the CSM. The current CSM is doing a more effective job at communicating with the eve-population and while some of your discussions may be covered by an NDA with CCP - simply reporting that provides a layer of transparency that people will apprechiate. Personally I would find it interesting if there was weekly figures available that showed the percentage of the player base that used the forums. This would help show how representative the forums are of those playing.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.22 11:36:00 - [50] Originally by: Red 7 Then post the minutes. They have, at least the short version. The long version has to go trough CCP to make sure that everything is fine. Quote: And please refrain from putting items on the agenda such as General CSM Operation. Any feelings of impotence you have doesn't warrent a place on the agenda for discussions with CCP and only harms the perception of the CSM. What are you on about? It was frankly a good discussion we had with Xhagen and Co. It was very productive and a range of different ideas and solutions were presented. If we don't solve fundamental problems in regards to communication now, which we have, there won't be a CSM in the future because nobody will care anymore. Quote: The current CSM is doing a more effective job at communicating with the eve-population and while some of your discussions may be covered by an NDA with CCP - simply reporting that provides a layer of transparency that people will apprechiate. I agree. That's why we had the above issue. We want to do even better! Quote: Personally I would find it interesting if there was weekly figures available that showed the percentage of the player base that used the forums. This would help show how representative the forums are of those playing. Hm, that's an interesting idea.
van Uber SAE Academy	Posted - 2009.01.22 12:33:00 - [51] Originally by: Cory Trevor I'm just curious - some of you opposing the CSM, what exactly did you expect from them? They're not magicians, they're not full-on CCP employees, CCP hasn't ceded decision making power to them. Those of you whining about the Nano Nerf for example - do you seriously think things like balance issues should be put to a vote? That'd just split the camp in two, between "I fly a nano ship" and "I got killed by a nano ship", neither of which have any real relevance to the issue and how it affects the vision of the game CCP has. There are some things that are just going to be beyond the player's control, and new balance changes are one of them. Now, if the changes have been in play for a while and serious issues develop, then bring THOSE issues to attention and you might have some success. I look at the CSM this way - at absolute worst, they're changing nothing and it's all a waste of time. But really, whose time is being wasted? CCP's time? They're running the CSM again so clearly they feel it's worthwhile. The candidate's time? There were several candidates who have run again, so clearly to them it's worthwhile. Now, at best, the CSM is capable of bringing ideas to CCP that they may not have thought of - thousands of heads are better than the few they have there, and it's natural that the players will think of things that CCP just may not have even considered. Whether the ideas are accepted or rejected, it's a good thing that they're even being heard. Sorry for this wall of text, but it's just so silly to see strong opposition to such a harmless concept.Just because your pet idea isn't being pushed through doesn't mean nobody's listening. This. So much... this.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:48:00 - [52] Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 22/01/2009 11:32:24 I'm sorry. But I'm going to be a bit blunt here: You are obviously not reading dev-blogs at all. In november there was a dev-blog on what the first CSM did of big things. If you then actually also read the meeting minutes from the CSM2-CCP meetings from last week, you would realize how much the CSM has actually influenced. Once the full minutes are out, it could quite possibly blow your mind. A WHOLE lot of things HAVE actually been fixed. EDIT: Forgot a bracket. Actually I do read the dev blogs.... Lets see... Last 2.... Two were about CCP stating they were going to get rid of SM2.0 Support in December... = I dont care because I dont have a 10 year old pc... and If you are a somewhat avid gamer... (2-4 hours a day) you should have a somewhat current pc... then the last one.... Something about *START* I really could careless about it since Im not a nubbin nor do I care to help a nubbin... .................................... Now that this is taken care of... When are the important things going to be taken care of like what is CCP's idea's with sov warfare, and how they plan to distance it from the current centric of POS's? or how about now with the pos exploits being taken care of and looked into... what will they do about that?
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:44:00 - [53] followup... I dont want to see discussions... I want to see actual work being done, I want to see fruits not seeds...
van Uber SAE Academy	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:13:00 - [54] Originally by: EliteSlave Actually I do read the dev blogs.... Lets see... Last 2.... Two were about CCP stating they were going to get rid of SM2.0 Support in December... = I dont care because I dont have a 10 year old pc... and If you are a somewhat avid gamer... (2-4 hours a day) you should have a somewhat current pc... then the last one.... Something about *START* I really could careless about it since Im not a nubbin nor do I care to help a nubbin... Why don't you read the ones that actually mention the work of the CSM, from November, instead of complaining that the last two this January lack CSM-content?
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.23 03:53:00 - [55] Originally by: van Uber Originally by: EliteSlave Why don't you read the ones that actually mention the work of the CSM, from November, instead of complaining that the last two this January lack CSM-content? Ok... lets look... Quarterly Econ report... This directly involves a major game change? no... Sixth Alliance Tourny.... Nope.. Evelopedia.... Nice... but can sit on the backburner... --------------------------------- Things that we should get dev-blogs on... Nano's... ( done deal ) Caldari / Minmatar Dread's being reworked.. Citadel Torpedos being reworked... Titans being reworked... Sov Warfare being reworked... as said before.. Fluff needs not be looked at the moment... The basing of the game is what needs to be looked at.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.23 04:47:00 - [56] Originally by: van Uber Originally by: EliteSlave Actually I do read the dev blogs.... Lets see... Last 2.... Two were about CCP stating they were going to get rid of SM2.0 Support in December... = I dont care because I dont have a 10 year old pc... and If you are a somewhat avid gamer... (2-4 hours a day) you should have a somewhat current pc... then the last one.... Something about *START* I really could careless about it since Im not a nubbin nor do I care to help a nubbin... Why don't you read the ones that actually mention the work of the CSM, from November, instead of complaining that the last two this January lack CSM-content? I'm starting to think that he doesn't want to.
van Uber SAE Academy	Posted - 2009.01.23 10:46:00 - [57] Originally by: EliteSlave Originally by: van Uber Why don't you read the ones that actually mention the work of the CSM, from November, instead of complaining that the last two this January lack CSM-content? Ok... lets look... Quarterly Econ report... This directly involves a major game change? no... Sixth Alliance Tourny.... Nope.. Evelopedia.... Nice... but can sit on the backburner... Yes, you could probably go on for days reading dev blogs that do not say anything about the CSM, so I'll make it easy for you: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=582 CSM term close to ending One of the criticism leveled at CCP, and sometimes the CSM, is that the show of progress or any sort of actual change is lacking. This is expected in the sense that visibly not much has happened. On the other hand, like the CSM has pointed out, the second CSM or even the third CSM might get credit for something the first CSM initiated. Developing software on the scale that EVE has become takes time, and by time I mean six to eight months might pass from when a new design or a change in design is first proposed until it actually hits Tranquility. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=604 The second election An example of how they have affected change would be the Orca, a ship type that has been worked on for some time, which became reprioritized due to CSM input. That is, the CSM had presented the need for an industrial ship of a size between the æold' indies and the freighters, thus the Orca was bumped up in the development line. Switching ammo for all weapons was something the CSM brought up. Our response was that we had tried in the past to come up with a solution, but due to the nature of the operation it had not been considered prudent to proceed after initial investigations. After the meeting with the CSM in June, the project was revitalized and expanded a bit with weapon grouping, hopefully to the liking of everyone. Now, I did copy som text from the blogs here, but you really should read them, perhaps even try to dig to see if you can find something more, considering how clueless you seem to be.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.23 13:59:00 - [58] I will give credit to the Orca and Weapon Grouping... but in reality these werent major game changes, yes they brought cool new things, Yes the Orca is cool and all but its not a Game Play change and or huge impact to the game as the Indies already had the Rorqual which is better btw. Weapon Grouping is nice and pretty handy and saves alot of keyboards being smashed, now only F1 key is abused But still, in the end no major game changes had been prevented by the CSM as of date. ie: Nano Nerf..(yes I am butt-hurt). Had the Nano-Nerf been prevented, I would have faith in the program. but till then the Orca / Weapon Grouping is just fluff.
van Uber SAE Academy	Posted - 2009.01.23 14:56:00 - [59] The Nano Nerf was inevitable. The CSM could not change that.
Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.01.24 01:05:00 - [60] So I can understand a players impression that the CSM has no effect. From my personal experience I can tell you that impression would be very wrong. That effect, however canot be seen on a "features in 15 minutes or the next one's free" basis. So let's talk about how the CSM makes a difference and what the pilots of Eve should consider when thinking about the value of the CSM. 1. Oversight. The recent POS exploit is a perfect example of the value of the CSM. CCP gave the CSM extremely detailed insight into the exploit and their actions after it's discovery. The CSM has given large amounts of time with the CCP employees that analyzed and fixed the code as well as those that investigated the effect of the exploit. The CSM has not made any further disclosures as the information was given under NDA and CCP has promised to release what the CSM learned by the end of the month. Once that has happened the CSM has been told we are free to discuss what we learned. The bottom line is that the players have a huge benefit in having a a player run council that can verify that CCP is acting an appropriate manner when things like exploits occur. 2. Feature feedback. The recent meeting in Iceland convinced me that the CSM can have major influences on the things we all get to enjoy in Eve. Everyone should understand that the CSM feedback will take time to see in game. Eve is a huge piece of software and introducing changes is a complicated process. So the realities of the software development lifecycle mean that new things will take time to make their way into the 'verse. Also remember the changes in code are not the only factors that come into play in determining when something gets out to the game. These include: Related developments - Features are usually grouped into related chuncks. So for example a change in 0.0 SOV mechanics is likely going to be done when all the related changes are ready. Game balance - Some features have impact on game balance. Calculating effects and working on related changes to maintain balance is complicated and time consuming. Storyline - Eve has a rich storyline and some features are best grouped with important developments in the storyline. Laws of physics/system architecture - Making Eve work well is a huge challenge in terms of network infrastructure and hardware realities. Some ideas have impacts on performance and have to wait for fundemental changes in system architecture. As CCP evolves the server architecture and discoveres new ways for optimization certain features become practical. Feature "Thunderdome - Many ideas enter, only one idea leaves" - Often there are large numbers of competing suggestions to address a single experience. Teams have to take time to review the alternatives sufficiently to understand the best choice. That means sometimes the research and planning time can expand dramatically as the best alternatives are researched to determine which one finally makes it into Eve. 3. Real "Politics" in a MMORPG - The CSM is a unique experiement in "virtual" politics. At the moment there really isn't much to point at about the CSM to demonstrate this but I believe this will become an interesting part of the CSM. Elections are going to become much more visible in the Eve universe and I think we can expect the emergence of real "political" parties in Eve in the future. I know some folks would find this totally uninteresting but everyone should realize that this adds a game element that the players themselves can affect in a very real way. 4. External visibility - Because of the CSM Eve has gained the attention of many outside organizations. This is because the CSM is a unique idea. This attention grows the Eve universe as more people become aware of Eve and give it a try. Free advertising! More to follow.

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