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[Issue] Logistics and 0.0 and roaming gangs and nostalgy

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Tusko Hopkins HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:00:00 - [1] Let me start with a little bit of history. Long time ago, in a galaxy far away, there was an alliance called Fountain Alliance. My corp was was living in it, doing what new corps in 0.0 are doing, mining stuff and rattiing and losing ships. Back in those days there were no POSses, no capitals, no black ops. Cynosular fields were never been heard of, jump technology was something the Jovians were experimenting with, and failed badly and their remains were scattered all around the galaxy. Anyways, back in these old days, the transportation of goods and the logistics of a corp went differently than they go today. In order to get our ships replaced, we needed ships on market or minerals, some of which were scarce resources in our region. We were organizing convoys from Fountain to empire, a few combat ships, lots of frigates. We were escorting our zydrine filled haulers up the pipes to empire, there we brought new ships, and escorted ourselves and our isogen and module filled haulers back to Fountain in an organized way. We had to do this as a corp event, or sometimes our alliance did it as an alliance event. It was a social activity with lots of people participating. On our way up, we met raiding fleets which needed to be taken care of. We ran into gate camps which actually had a reason to camp there, as they were there for the loot, not just for griefing losers in empty ships. Despite the fact that the maximum number of players on server never went above 10.000, 0.0 was a much more vivid place than it is today, in the age of jump clones, jump freighters, carriers, titans, twinned bridges and ship maintenance bays. Back in those days raiding gangs had actual achievable goals: disrupting logistics. Gate camps had goals: loot valuable stuff and prevent enemies from returning to fleet battles. There were roaming gangs of all possible sizes, from small to large, gate camps from small to large, often aimed at preventing our enemies from slipping in one by one into our NPC stations. These are times I enjoyed the most in my EVE career. I miss them a lot. And I think I know the reason why this has changed. And this is also the reason why people recently find 0.0 a lifeless, underused, empty space. I think the main reason for this is not that there are not enough people. The reason is that there is not enough traveling around, because it can be solved else-how. Even those who travel, do not risk all too much. One does not need to be a genius to see why the amount of travel has decreased. Jump clones provide a way for completely safe transportation from one end of the galaxy to another. Jump freighters, carriers, rorquals are also nearly 100% secure methods of transporting large amounts of wealth in and out of 0.0. Jump bridge networks maintained by big alliances allow Joe Average to travel from his 0.0 home to empire in a safe and a quick way that was never possible before. These very same bridge networks, combined with titan bridges make it possible to get back into fleet fights instantly. Safe hauling kills most of the logical (and ethical) reasons for small size gate camps. Jump bridges make roaming gangs useless. Titan bridges into fight make camping pipes around battlezones useless. Today roaming gangs are not nearly as fun as they were earlier. Why? Because there are not enough people in 0.0? WRONG. They are not fun because there is not enough movement in 0.0. It does not make much sense to blockade pipes. Or hold empire choke-points. I think instead of "finding a new objective for small sized roaming gangs", it would make sense to look around and ask ourselves: where did the old objectives go? So... this is it. This is an issue. I know the problem. But I do not know the solution. Discuss. CSM representative CSM candidate for 2nd cycle
RedLion Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:10:00 - [2] This is why industrial, transport and normal freighters should be buffed! I'm not sure what I'm supporting, but I do believe that the good PvP does not necessarily have to revolve around logistics. Sure you can protect your haulers with "zydrine", but it nothing prevents a bunch of griefers to alpha down your haulers. So a buff to industrial ships and make them more attractive to use. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tusko Hopkins HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.10.26 17:25:00 - [3] By supporting this you support that this is a problem worth mentioning to CCP.
Omber Zombie Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.27 01:49:00 - [4]
Tempest Inferno Davy Jones Locker Einherjar Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.27 03:16:00 - [5] I never played back in those days but from what I understand EVE is an entirely different game than it used to be. New corporations and alliances don't stand a chance at entering 0.0 as it is mostly claimed by money making logistically soul draining POS's. Capitals are way out of line with the general scale of ships. The game has become boring to me unless i have just picked up a new ship to test out.
Molock Saronen	Posted - 2008.10.27 10:14:00 - [6]
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.27 11:16:00 - [7] Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 27/10/2008 11:16:03 Some ideas: - temporary space distortions aka. "space weather". They "move" over whole universe and prevent pilots in random constellations from using jump portals/cynos. - mobile space distortion generator, can deflect/bypass a capital jump. Probably very hard to balance, but you got the idea. - free exotic dancers for every 100th gate jump :)
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.27 12:07:00 - [8] One of the reasons why the "i used to do roaming BS gangs in 2004" comments are not relevant to the current speed nerf discussion. The ease of logistics both to/from and within 0.0 space is one of the major problems of 0.0 atm. But sadly i dont think its possible to solve it without alienating a large part of the EVE population.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:00:00 - [9] Supporting this. Its an important topic that definitely needs to be addressed by the CSM and CCP. I hope we get to raise these issues in the last session of the current CSM and fingers crossed Tusko gets to carry them forward into the next.
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.10.27 20:23:00 - [10] What youd escribe soudns much more fun than current crap mechanics, too bad I couldn't enjoy it. More freighter ganking plz. Teh failure of a signature.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.10.28 00:44:00 - [11] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 28/10/2008 00:44:05 I'm pretty sure that this boat has sailed - Jump Freighter owners would be apoplectic at any changes to these mechanics, and justifiably so given how many billions they've sunk into the things - but the vision is a good one. The trick is, how do you remove Jump Freighters and Jump Bridges, at least functionally if not literally? About the only solution I can think of is creating some sort of "conduit sovereignty", such that you can't just jump past systems somebody else controls. The mechanics of implementing that, though, are utterly brain-melting, and they'd totally mess up legitimate military travel - a JF can slow-boat, but a Carrier can't. Here is, in broadest outline, the closest I can come up with to a solution. Covert travel(Black Ops-based) has Jump Harmonics 2, military travel(capital-based) has Jump Harmonics 1, and civilian travel(Jump Freighters, Rorquals, and large-cargo ships through a bridge) has Jump Harmonics 0. Justify it as civilian manufacturers not investing in expensive military widgets for their cargo carriers - it's not like container ships have combat-capable radar IRL. Jump Harmonics 2 allows for all sorts of ludicrous things, like piercing cyno jammers, holding a cloak through jump, all that stuff. Jump Harmonics 1 allows for normal activity - bypassing the odd enemy system, jumping into an enemy system with no jammer, and so on. Jump Harmonics 0 means the path has to be absolutely pristine, with no interference whatsoever. You might require a module for this effect - a Jump Inhibitor, needing Sov 1, with a ly or two of range, where a JH0 ship gets stopped by one, and a JH1 ship gets stopped by like 5. It means you can still jump caps into border systems, even without dropping inhibitors, but your JF logistics chain is utterly screwed. And in order for the blockade route to work, you'd need a mobile jump inhibitor too - maybe make a new capital to carry it, or stick it on one of the existing supercaps. You'd basically need to implement a civvy cyno for this to happen without annihilating the JF market, so that they still have a use in empire, and you'll see a lot of enraged alliances at the far edge of space. But that's about the only way I can think of to put convoying back into the game without using the nerfbat to break limbs.
Drake Draconis Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.28 21:17:00 - [12] Yeah... the more i look into jump tech. the more its obvious that if you got all the fuel you need... its very easy. It would be better if there was a way to buff the freighters to encourage more use of them and give them a chance to break blockades.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.10.29 02:21:00 - [13] Edited by: Blastil on 29/10/2008 02:23:49 I'm Blastil and I aprove this message. I entered PVP in a corp full of older players, and I get an earful about 'back in the day', and I've always wanted to play 'back in the day'. Here's an idea- make jumping inordinately boring. I don't know how the UI looks, but if your ship is incapped for an hour or two while it flies from point A to point B, then I think people will get the message- Cynoing takes for ****ing ever. Jump clones ought to remain in place, since they do allow for PVP on demand, and in fact, support 0.0 logistics growth, since you have to move ships too. Hell, why DO carriers have corperate bays that can fit ships inside them? I've never seen anyone use them to pull a ship out in the middle of combat.
Tusko Hopkins	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:53:00 - [14] I am planning to raise this topic next week, please discuss, need input. CSM representative CSM candidate for 2nd cycle Campaign website http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:36:00 - [15] Just a few points to consider: 1) Removing jump bridge functionality may add a little bit of combat but nothing guarantees it will be game changing. 2) Jump bridge networks allow for more fleet fights across larger areas of space by increasing ship liquidity. 3) The ability to anchor jump bridge networks is a huge incentive to hold sovereignty and should probably be compensated for if removed. They create superhighways that keep null-sec empires functioning (POS refueling, rapid response, etc.) 4) On the same note, maintaining jump bridge networks is not free - you need to factor in POS fuel, liquid ozone for every jump, and the military challenge of holding sovereignty. Removing them is silly, but making them more vulnerable structures would be nice. By increasing the power requirements of jump bridge structures, less military structures can be anchored at the POS. Less guns means that attacking a node will be more feasible but still just as meaningful because their functionality was not nerfed. Rather than destroy the mechanic entirely, use it to create a new kind of pvp scenario - where hit and run gangs attack jump bridge nodes and responders are sent through the network to deal with them.
Drake Draconis Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.04 17:42:00 - [16] /signed
Tusko Hopkins	Posted - 2008.12.04 18:00:00 - [17] Fahtim, I am aware that jump bridge networks need to be maintained, and alliances are putting a lot of effort into keeping them running. On the other hand, I think that they do break parts of the game in their current form. I am open to any alternative to jump bridge removal, as I consider it to be impossible to get something removed from this game completely. It never happened as far as I can remember. An alternative solution would be for example changing POS mechanics in a way that jump bridges cannot be defended by death stars armed to teeth, a new possibility would open for gangs to camp jump bridges... making them less secure, of course. This, for example, can be achieved by increasing their pg needs. These are exactly the kind of suggestions I need. I could even imagine to separate jump bridges and POSses completely. CCP has been talking about more "anchorable structures" in the past, maybe changing the bridge to be some standalone thing. This topic is very difficult, I would like to discuss it with CCP face to face, to hear what they think about the lack of regular travel in New Eden, but I do not want to do this unprepared. CSM representative CSM candidate for 2nd cycle Campaign website http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameb
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.04 18:26:00 - [18] supported
Tybalt Hancock	Posted - 2008.12.04 19:02:00 - [19] I support the discussion of this, but I'm not at all sure what would be the correct way to solve all of this. I used to play EVE a lot way back during release and for a long while afterward so I remember exactly what you are talking about Tusko. I've seen bits and pieces of this problem come up in lots of different discussions before, and this all stems into the desire to give relevance back to small gangs, change the way sovereignty works, give the smaller corps and little guys a chance, but of course some sort of balance needs to be maintained because while we want to support the little guy we can't all of sudden shift all the power where the big guys can't function, so removing jump gates and the like could break the game even more. I'm still very new to the "current EVE" I'm still not well versed in the ways the current 0.0 and PvP works, but I've seen and read enough to know it should be tweaked around. The disruption of logistics should a capable method of warfare between the big boys as well as a way for the little guys to possibly gain a foothold on the big boys if they are smart enough. I can see the opportunity for lots of new PvP encounters that don't just evolve around joining a big alliance and blob fighting or siegeing death stars. I'm not saying this is all bad, but some more variety in 0.0 is needed and I think addressing this correctly could lead to that. Sorry for being vague, but I really just don't have enough information to offer concrete detailed solution ideas, only my support for more knowledgeable people to discuss this so I can have more fun in EVE again. :)
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.04 20:06:00 - [20] I am not familiar enough with the topic to offer any suggestions. But have been around long enough to hear the vets speak of the earlier days fondly. So a discussion should be made and I guess support of this is also needed. Slade Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine. ≡v≡
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:32:00 - [21] ah the good old days when you could make a good living from pvp. will see if i can come up with some suggestions that wont ruin it totaly for alliances at the same time. but god knows it wouldnt hurt to remove jump bridges and for that matter all capital ships(a bit extreme, but i miss the old days and so does most ppl i know that have played or still playes) Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:41:00 - [22] Originally by: Tusko Hopkins I am planning to raise this topic next week, please discuss, need input. As I said above, the goal is to make it possible to interdict logistics without obsoleting anything players have collectively invested trillions in too badly, and without interfering too badly with "normal" travel. How to do that is beyond me, though I think my above proposal can at least be used as a skeleton of a solution, but I think that it should at least be looked at. ---------- Thanks to all those who voted for me.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.04 23:51:00 - [23] There's a lot to be said about this issue, it is important. Before going into more detailed discussion (which I'm very interested to pursue when I'm less tired), one should note that it is virtually impossible to 'resurrect' the 'old days' of Eve, even with extensive game-mechanic changes.
Terios Corvalis HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2009.01.02 23:57:00 - [24] To be honest, I missed the early days of EVE, but I'm pretty sure that they were awesome, since noone would play today if they weren't. Unfortunately it is true, that small scale PvP does not have any strategic purpose nowadays, still it can be a lot of fun, but the current soveregnity mechanics encourage players to create bigger powerblocks and more epic battles and of course even more lag. I'm not saying that jump portals, cynos, capitals should be removed, since they've been part of this game quite some time now, but their purpose could change. I have a vision if we would define jump portals, as corporation/alliance owned/built stargates, that would be much more interesting. Everybody could seen them on the everview, camp them, they would work the same as stargates except their usage be standing based as jump bridge's are. And of course capitals couldn't use them, for example to drop 4 titans defending a cynojammed system againts a fleet of subcapitals.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.01.03 00:11:00 - [25] I completely support bringing more light to this topic. I have many good memories of scouting for freighter runs to and from my 0.0 home systems into empire space. I have many good memories of running fights of small ship groups that would span many systems. Another significant change from those times to now is the proliferation of bubble technology. In those days you had to anchor a bubble and mean it.. all these interdictor bubbles weren't popping up all over the place. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
William Pierce Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.03 00:47:00 - [26]

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