Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Korovyov
Mercantile Investments
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 14:51:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Kel Solaar Can you explain how 15 vs 15 nanos are eating more cpu than a 100 vs 100 capships battle ? I'm really curious...
Take calculus.
Capship battles (unless they're nanocarriers...) = 50 basic 1-step and 1 complex real-time equation per ship, 1-shot math equations per ship = 10000 fast calculations and 200 complex real-time calcs.
Nano battles = 10 basic 1-step math equations and 10 complex real-time equation per ship = 300 fast calculations and 300 complex real-time calcs.
The one-shots are done like a queue at a fast food burger joint - serve one, move on. They won't be back for 4+ hours. The real-times are like wood chippers - they just eat it all up and sit there going MOAR MOAR MOAR! until someone blows the thing up or until the fast food joint caves in on itself. Nanos are taking more than their fair share of cycles. As in, you guys are high maintenence. Donald Trump has reviewed the expenses and decided to do some layoffs. I have bad news for you nano*****s. Donald sez "J00 R FIYORD!"
And naturally, fixing nanos broke everything else so CCP had to go "LOL NERF FRENZY!" Hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth.
All of this is moot, though, because this game has a serious lack of space whales. |
Korovyov
Mercantile Investments
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 14:56:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Po3tank took me 10 mins to make!
It took 9 minutes to find the picture on google, eh? Might want to look into some tech 2 keywords.
All of this is moot, though, because this game has a serious lack of space whales. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 15:00:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Furb Killer We were just whining here BS arent able to hit smaller ships.
BS should be able to hit BCs, i dont see why they should bbq cruisers, battlecruisers do that without problems.
Oh and liang, zulu said he recently hasnt played too much eve, he did play eve...
Is it really to much to ask that the Dev in charge of balancing ships for PvP at least has a current working knowledge of live PvP conditions?
Pretty sure zulu isnt in charge of balancing ships...
|
Jolene Obeng
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 15:03:00 -
[124]
Mega pulse lasers are fully capable of tracking and hitting cruisers in the 5-10km range, especially with web and tracking computer (scripted for tracking speed). Mega Pulse has a fair bit more range than Neutron Blaster Cannons, too.
You know, that's what we could do. Fit pulse lasers on the Hyperion.
|
Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 15:14:00 -
[125]
Dunno ifyou mention this as a joke but I get good dps numbers from my unbonused Megapulses on my alt's poc...
Just make sure yous swap the mfsII for a HS II and thatyou use a single LAR rather than a dual LAR setup (cap use is mucho) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Furb Killer
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 15:16:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Jolene Obeng Mega pulse lasers are fully capable of tracking and hitting cruisers in the 5-10km range, especially with web and tracking computer (scripted for tracking speed). Mega Pulse has a fair bit more range than Neutron Blaster Cannons, too.
You know, that's what we could do. Fit pulse lasers on the Hyperion.
So then why wouldnt blasters on a mega with tracking bonus not be able to do the same thing?
|
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 16:06:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Kel Solaar Can you explain how 15 vs 15 nanos are eating more cpu than a 100 vs 100 capships battle ? I'm really curious...
Take calculus.
Capship battles (unless they're nanocarriers...) = 50 basic 1-step and 1 complex real-time equation per ship, 1-shot math equations per ship = 10000 fast calculations and 200 complex real-time calcs.
Nano battles = 10 basic 1-step math equations and 10 complex real-time equation per ship = 300 fast calculations and 300 complex real-time calcs.
the code please :]
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 16:25:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Kel Solaar the code please :]
So, this is what we know: Capital Fight - Dreads don't move (and we hope that siege mode is accounted for when calculating movement and notifications!) - Dreads have 3-4 weapons each, and 5 drones each for a total of 8-9 weapons each - Carriers move (slowly) - Carriers have no high slot weapons, but can field 10 fighters with 1 weapon each => Carriers have 10 weapons each
Nano Fight - All ships move and must be accounted for when calculating movement and notifications - Ships have an average (say) of 5.5 weapons + 4 drones = 9.5 weapons each
This means that in an NvN capital fight, you've got: - 2(X carriers + 10X fighters + 5Y) drones to consider in the N-Body problem each tick - 10X+5Y+Y hit/damage calculations per R ticks.
In an NvN nano fight, you've got: - 2(N ships + 4N drones) = 2N+8N objects in the N-Body - 2(9.5N weapons) = 19 hit/damage calculations per R ticks
I think it's fairly safe to say that the carriers are going to override the dreads in the N-Body, and quite possibly the nanos too, and the hit/damage calculations are roughly equivalent. Of course, the N-Body has to do collision testing etc, and it's a major advantage to have things in siege mode and not moving.
In fact, if implemented correctly, siege modules could become a major boon to reducing lag and computation in fleet battles. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 17:33:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Kel Solaar the code please :]
I think it's fairly safe to say that the carriers are going to override the dreads in the N-Body, and quite possibly the nanos too, and the hit/damage calculations are roughly equivalent. Of course, the N-Body has to do collision testing etc, and it's a major advantage to have things in siege mode and not moving.
In fact, if implemented correctly, siege modules could become a major boon to reducing lag and computation in fleet battles. :)
-Liang
Not too fast Liang , I suspect someone is decompiling eve.exe and reverse engineer it to get exact equations :]
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 17:40:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Kel Solaar
Not too fast Liang , I suspect someone is decompiling eve.exe and reverse engineer it to get exact equations :]
Haha, no, that stuff would be stored on the server side. The best we can do is examine the inputs/outputs to the function and statistically divine what happens inside the black box.
It does mean that I've spent way too much time poking the internals of Eve and have written multiplayer games myself. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
|
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 18:02:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Haha, no, that stuff would be stored on the server side. The best we can do is examine the inputs/outputs to the function and statistically divine what happens inside the black box.
It does mean that I've spent way too much time poking the internals of Eve and have written multiplayer games myself. ;-)
-Liang
So we can conclude some Voodoo Magic provided those numbers
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 18:06:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Kel Solaar So we can conclude some Voodoo Magic provided those numbers
Well, the game did...
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 18:22:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Well, the game did...
-Liang
Hehe :) In fact I was speaking about Korovyov incredible abitlity to read in the Matrix and provide us the math/code moving Eve ships and not your own estimations that seem to be more representative (and right) of what's currently happening in the game.
|
Korovyov
Mercantile Investments
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 19:20:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I think it's fairly safe to say that the carriers are going to override the dreads in the N-Body, and quite possibly the nanos too, and the hit/damage calculations are roughly equivalent. Of course, the N-Body has to do collision testing etc, and it's a major advantage to have things in siege mode and not moving.
And all of this is client-side and a matter of bandwidth. What is going on server side with the nano builds that is eating up so much disproportional cycle-time that CCP finally decided to do this smorgasbord of tweaking?
Originally by: Kel Solaar Hehe :) In fact I was speaking about Korovyov incredible abitlity to read in the Matrix and provide us the math/code moving Eve ships and not your own estimations that seem to be more representative (and right) of what's currently happening in the game.
Now that you have the high-five's out of the way, go listen to the live dev blog on the whole thing. Notice how the only reason given for these speed changes is that it's throwing the servers through a loop doing calculations for a nano build. I'm glad we have the paper formulas narrowed down for the client side data. Now...
How fast does a nano BS/cruiser move?
How fast does a parked mothership and its fighters move?
Maybe something can be extrapolated from there. Or you and Liang can slap each other's backs about the 20 MMOs that Liang has launched and maintains solo.
All of this is moot, though, because this game has a serious lack of space whales. |
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 19:32:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Kel Solaar on 29/10/2008 19:32:56 tbh I would be more interested in seeing numbers, algoritms, etc more than some stuff you derived from a live dev blog that make you thinking than a 100 vs 100 caps engagements is more cpu/memory intensive than a 15 vs 15 speed bees fight :]
Edit : and if it's the case, there are some serious refactoring to do on the code instead of taking the triple axe and golden hammer and changing everything in the game...
|
Korovyov
Mercantile Investments
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 20:06:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Kel Solaar Edit : and if it's the case, there are some serious refactoring to do on the code instead of taking the triple axe and golden hammer and changing everything in the game...
I agree. But I've yet to see an MMO company that doesn't take such a meandering way of fixing a single calculation that's grown a tumor.
All of this is moot, though, because this game has a serious lack of space whales. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 20:39:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Korovyov And all of this is client-side and a matter of bandwidth. What is going on server side with the nano builds that is eating up so much disproportional cycle-time that CCP finally decided to do this smorgasbord of tweaking?
I assure you that information is not stored client side. As for why it's eating up so much CPU time: I don't think that it really is. Nano gangs (even absurdly large ones) don't get nearly as laggy as similarly sized cap blobs - and I say this from far too much experience.
If I had to hazard a guess, I might say that grids are actually subdivided and changing grid subdivisions is expensive, but that's a wild guess and utterly unsupported. We could also say that if you're more than X distance from the last pos update then they resend the raw pos+metadata packets, but that seems like an exceptionally poor case considering that CCP fully plans to keep 8km/s ships in game even post-patch.
Simply put, adding numbers doesn't change how expensive it is to calculate.
Quote: Now that you have the high-five's out of the way, go listen to the live dev blog on the whole thing. Notice how the only reason given for these speed changes is that it's throwing the servers through a loop doing calculations for a nano build. I'm glad we have the paper formulas narrowed down for the client side data. Now...
Do you have a transcript or recording said live dev blog? I don't remember that in any of them that I've listened to - but I do remember quite a bit of discussion about it being a balance issue. And additionally, if raw speed were the only issue, there are much, much simpler ways to fix it. :)
Quote: How fast does a nano BS/cruiser move?
An average nano cruiser travels about 3-4km/s, top end nano cruisers ~6-8km/s. Anything faster than that is pure epeen and not especially practical or useful.
Quote: How fast does a parked mothership and its fighters move?
Motherships are pretty slow, and their fighters travel ~2200-2500 m/s.
Quote: Maybe something can be extrapolated from there.
Maybe, but like I said, there's no really good reason that I can imagine for it to be expensive simply to move "too quickly". In all fairness, the dev posts that I've seen about it have all pointed to it being a BALANCE issue instead of a performance issue.
Quote: Or you and Liang can slap each other's backs about the 20 MMOs that Liang has launched and maintains solo.
Um, I haven't ever claimed to have launched an MMO solo, but nice attempt at hyperbole and strawman. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 20:40:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Korovyov
I agree. But I've yet to see an MMO company that doesn't take such a meandering way of fixing a single calculation that's grown a tumor.
I notice you didn't bother responding to his actual question.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 21:05:00 -
[139]
You forgot about the speed nerf.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mortuus Or just use a Neut and some small/med drones instead of heavies....
You mean light drones. Meds are all but useless - even against the targets they're nominally supposed to hit.
-Liang
|
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 21:12:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Bagehi You forgot about the speed nerf.
Top posting FTL. At any rate, you seem to have forgotten about the med drone nerf. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
|
Sasha Renforth
|
Posted - 2008.10.29 23:39:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Bagehi You forgot about the speed nerf.
Top posting FTL. At any rate, you seem to have forgotten about the med drone nerf. ;-)
-Liang
WTS: Myrmidon: fitted with 50 light drones LOL
Hopefully Ambulation will have beer fights and stuff...
|
Korovyov
Mercantile Investments
|
Posted - 2008.10.30 01:35:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Um, I haven't ever claimed to have launched an MMO solo, but nice attempt at hyperbole and strawman. :)
Thank you. And don't forget ad hominem.
All of this is moot, though, because this game has a serious lack of space whales. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
|
Posted - 2008.10.30 01:36:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Liang Nuren Um, I haven't ever claimed to have launched an MMO solo, but nice attempt at hyperbole and strawman. :)
Thank you. And don't forget ad hominem.
Of course. A simple oversight I assure you. :)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Rob Z0mbie
|
Posted - 2008.10.30 01:53:00 -
[144]
not enough drama in thread...
|
sAyArrrr
Minmatar Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.30 01:56:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Rob Z0mbie not enough drama in thread...
Maybe because Caod is ---> way?
|
phanthom chancer
|
Posted - 2008.10.30 03:26:00 -
[146]
Edited by: phanthom chancer on 30/10/2008 03:33:44
Originally by: Imaos
Originally by: Praxis1452 Have yet to see a larger RL ship without escort on duty. Ships need to work together. Bigger is not better. Get a balanced gang.
Larger ships are proportionally weak against smaller targets. A Battleship had plenty of AA defenses. It was simply that a frigate loaded with AA was vastly more cost effective. If the US had had the funds and ability to mount all carrier and battleship fleets (and easily replace them), I bet you they would have.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |