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Structure repair: rather broken

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Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:32:00 - [1] OK, for me it is fun to fight into structure. I feel a great sense of achievement if I defeat or escape my enemy with only some structure left - the risk of destruction is part of the thrill, and an evenly-matched fight is always more satisfying than one where you have an easy win. BUT: structure repair sucks. On a battleship or something, it is pretty expensive, and on ships like Freighters and the new Orca (which have pretty lightweight shield/armor) it is hugely expensive. so why not use Structure repair modules? Well, I do, but they have some issues. A large structural repairer fixes about 100-120hp per cycle, whereas a large armor repairer fixes 600-720hp. Additionally, the cycle for structure repairers is about 2x longer than for armor. So, it takes about 12x as long to repair structural damage as armor damage. Of course, a damage control II gives you great resists, hopefully enough to get out earlier, but still. I can repair all the armor on a raven in a few minutes, whereas repairing the structure takes around half an hour. This seems...excessive. I'm all for it being somewhat more difficult, since it's the actual structure of your ship etc. etc. But couldn't there be an XL structure repair module? As for remote repping, it's still slow although with a fleet there are more options. And a capital remote structural repper heals 720hp of damage (yay), but it has about 1000x the power grid requirements of a large, so it's around 180 times less efficient. So...can structure repairers get a bit of a boost? I'm not arguing for structure tanking or anything, but the time/ISK involved to rep a freighter or an Orca are kind of insane. Solutions: - improve structural repairers by introducing an x-large version - make structural analysis (-5% cycle time per level) a public skill and rename it 'advanced repair systems' - Allow Repair Systems and Structural Analysis to lower station repair costs as well as cycle time
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:47:00 - [2] you know why it takes alot of time/isk to repair an orca/freighter? Because they're not combat ships and are not meant to be damaged.
Dyaven Attention Ltd.	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Aravel Thon you know why it takes alot of time/isk to repair an orca/freighter? Because they're not combat ships and are not meant to be damaged. That's not the point. Ever try repairing a Battleship that's in low structure with a structure repairer? It can take almost an hour.
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:51:00 - [4] Edited by: Aravel Thon on 29/10/2008 19:54:25 Edit: hit post before i typed out my reply. I dont know what you're smoking, but with my skills, with 4 large hull repairer i's on my mega, it takes 9 mins to repair all 9656 hp.
Khraunus Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:54:00 - [5] Originally by: Dyaven Originally by: Aravel Thon you know why it takes alot of time/isk to repair an orca/freighter? Because they're not combat ships and are not meant to be damaged. That's not the point. Ever try repairing a Battleship that's in low structure with a structure repairer? It can take almost an hour. You know what else takes an hour? Running a single level 4 mission that has a payout large enough to rep that battleship 5 times over. Most importantly, how are you supposed to tell whether this is part of my post or my signature?
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:55:00 - [6] Originally by: Dyaven That's not the point. Ever try repairing a Battleship that's in low structure with a structure repairer? It can take almost an hour. Yeah, I did. Hardly ever took me over 10 mins in the worst case. Ever try fitting more than one hull repairer ?
Dez Affinity Evocati.	Posted - 2008.10.29 19:59:00 - [7] Fit 5 large hull reps and go afk for an hour. _______________
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:03:00 - [8] Edited by: Spectre3353 on 29/10/2008 20:03:13 I wish I could even do what you're saying here. Every time I dock with a ship in structure these days it gives me some message about how I cannot undock and pilot my ship in its current condition and I HAVE to pay to rep it before undocking. I don't recall it always being this way... I used to fit hull/armor reppers and rep myself after fights but now I cannot. What is the deal with that? Also, what is the deal with airline peanuts? Why do you they give two tiny bags? Why not just give you one bag that is twice the size? ----- My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/ My Ransom Board: http://www.pcransomboard.com/
Dyaven Attention Ltd.	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Trevor Warps Ever try fitting more than one hull repairer ? I feel stupid now.
Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:04:00 - [10] Indeed, but you're looking at such long repair times that it becomes tedious in some cases.
Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:09:00 - [11] Originally by: Spectre3353 Edited by: Spectre3353 on 29/10/2008 20:03:13 I wish I could even do what you're saying here. Every time I dock with a ship in structure these days it gives me some message about how I cannot undock and pilot my ship in its current condition and I HAVE to pay to rep it before undocking. I had that problem too. It seemed to appear after I had trained mechanic V. The wolution s to fit an armor plate (anything, even 50mm) and then you can undock and use your reppers. I answer to another post, indeed I fit multiple hull reppers and in practice repairing a raven or so takes 10-15 minutes. I was trying to point out the huge time difference for individual modules, sorry if that wasn't clear. Maybe I haven't done enough level 4s, but I've yet to see one that nets you 4-5 the cost of battleship repair in a single mission - if I net 20m ISK on a level 4 I'm pleased with myself.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.10.29 20:54:00 - [12] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 29/10/2008 20:55:25 Structure repair is fixing some very delicate areas of the ship with very complicated nanobots. It isn't supposed to be cheap in stations and it isn't supposed to be fast with repper modules. It's all working as intended IMO. There's not really much of an excuse for ever entering structure during PvE, except a bad miscalculation of the DPS your going to face, or the presence of warp scrambling vessels that don't scram you until you're deep into armor.
Nexus Kinnon Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.10.29 21:53:00 - [13] Edited by: Nexus Kinnon on 29/10/2008 21:53:01 Get a friend in a carrier to remote structure rep you?
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.10.29 22:20:00 - [14] i was often trapped at a station without repair in my taranis... which is a hull buffer tanked ship. you cant undock if you have structural damage and cant repair at such stations. i always have to carry an armor plate with me to equip in order to be able to undock. just saying that should also be adressed if ccps gonna change anything about structure damage and reppage. It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.10.29 22:23:00 - [15] Originally by: Spectre3353 Edited by: Spectre3353 on 29/10/2008 20:03:13 I wish I could even do what you're saying here. Every time I dock with a ship in structure these days it gives me some message about how I cannot undock and pilot my ship in its current condition and I HAVE to pay to rep it before undocking. I don't recall it always being this way... I used to fit hull/armor reppers and rep myself after fights but now I cannot. What is the deal with that? Also, what is the deal with airline peanuts? Why do you they give two tiny bags? Why not just give you one bag that is twice the size? You don't have to pay the full amount though, you can lower the cost so you only repair a smaller amount. In most cases, by paying a small amount, you'll be able to undock and fit a repairer to do the rest for free.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.10.29 22:32:00 - [16] Originally by: Leon vanUber i was often trapped at a station without repair in my taranis... which is a hull buffer tanked ship. Either you're calling a ship with a damage control unit hull buffed, or... don't tell me reinforced bulkheads. Also how much does it cost to fully repair 99% of a Ceptor's structure? Should be under a mil shouldn't it? I mean yeah that's not chump change to some people but presumably you aren't entering deep hull every time you take the ship out for a spin.
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.10.29 22:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Leon vanUber i was often trapped at a station without repair in my taranis... which is a hull buffer tanked ship. Either you're calling a ship with a damage control unit hull buffed, or... don't tell me reinforced bulkheads. Also how much does it cost to fully repair 99% of a Ceptor's structure? Should be under a mil shouldn't it? I mean yeah that's not chump change to some people but presumably you aren't entering deep hull every time you take the ship out for a spin. I think he means that the outpost he was docked up in didn't have a repair upgrade, that is no way to repair, even if you would pay for it. Interceptor fights can also be very close, and being in a ceptor that uses a hull buffer you want every hull hp you can get... "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Kurull Skullsplitter Minmatar Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2008.10.29 23:32:00 - [18] Cost me 4.4 mill ISK to repair about 45% of the armor on my Vargur yesterday because I was too lazy to buy an armor repair. The cost seems excessive, no matter the reason for it, when compared to the cost of fitting a repair mod and paying nothing else. BTW I never played around with changing the ISK amount I was willing to pay for the repair didn't realize it was possible. That seems a good way to get undocked if you don't have a plate handy .
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 00:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Kurull Skullsplitter Cost me 4.4 mill ISK to repair about 45% of the armor on my Vargur yesterday because I was too lazy to buy an armor repair. The cost seems excessive, no matter the reason for it, when compared to the cost of fitting a repair mod and paying nothing else. Your ship costs several hundred million ISK on the Market - if you're driving expensive hardware you shouldn't be surprised to find out that it costs more to take it to a mechanic when you've screwed it up, rather than to do a patch-up job by yourself.
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.10.30 00:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Leon vanUber i was often trapped at a station without repair in my taranis... which is a hull buffer tanked ship. Either you're calling a ship with a damage control unit hull buffed, or... don't tell me reinforced bulkheads. Also how much does it cost to fully repair 99% of a Ceptor's structure? Should be under a mil shouldn't it? I mean yeah that's not chump change to some people but presumably you aren't entering deep hull every time you take the ship out for a spin. yeah sure, reinforced bulkheads on a ceptor... look at the taranis stats about shield, armor and structure hp. then look at the resists a damage control 2 gives. you have more then 50% of your total ehp in your structure. with a taranis nearly every fight where the opponent manages to shoot back before your overwhelming dps kill him you gonna end up in structure. and please tell me how i can repair my structure in a station without repair facility, im really interested in how to do so. reading comprehension FTW It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.10.30 01:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Leon vanUber Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Leon vanUber i was often trapped at a station without repair in my taranis... which is a hull buffer tanked ship. Either you're calling a ship with a damage control unit hull buffed, or... don't tell me reinforced bulkheads. Also how much does it cost to fully repair 99% of a Ceptor's structure? Should be under a mil shouldn't it? I mean yeah that's not chump change to some people but presumably you aren't entering deep hull every time you take the ship out for a spin. yeah sure, reinforced bulkheads on a ceptor... look at the taranis stats about shield, armor and structure hp. then look at the resists a damage control 2 gives. you have more then 50% of your total ehp in your structure. with a taranis nearly every fight where the opponent manages to shoot back before your overwhelming dps kill him you gonna end up in structure. and please tell me how i can repair my structure in a station without repair facility, im really interested in how to do so. reading comprehension FTW It's unusual to describe a resistance buffer as a hull buffer is what I was saying, leading me to at least consider the prospect that you had in fact equipped one or more reinforced bulkheads to the ship. Yes it's true that Gallente ships have the highest structure HPs and benefit the most from DCs, no argument there. Nor was I saying that a DC was inappropriate on a Ceptor (although you may want to do some controlled tests with corpmates to see if you actually stay alive longer by replacing the DC with a speed mod.) I've ended up in structure before during a number of fights, some of which were with a Stiletto. It isn't anywhere close to the "nearly every fight" figure you mentioned though (granted a Stiletto is not a Taranis.) The only real advice I can give on the last point is "don't dock at a station with no repair facilities if you've taken major structural damage." That, or carry around a small plate and hull rep. Fit those in the station and you should be able to undock despite having hull damage.
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.10.30 01:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Dirk Magnum I've ended up in structure before during a number of fights, some of which were with a Stiletto. It isn't anywhere close to the "nearly every fight" figure you mentioned though (granted a Stiletto is not a Taranis.) The only real advice I can give on the last point is "don't dock at a station with no repair facilities if you've taken major structural damage." That, or carry around a small plate and hull rep. Fit those in the station and you should be able to undock despite having hull damage. apparently you dont know the blaster fit taranis, or how you fly it for that matter. you have blasters fitted and WANT to get into point blank range as soon as possible. once in range you switch off the mwd to benefit from your small signature radius. the fitting mainly consists of mwd, web, scram, blasters, magstabs and a damage control as your only protection or 'tank'. since about 50% of our total hp is in your structure nearly every fight where you dont kill you enemy before he realizes where 300dps on him are coming from is gonna end in your structure. for your advice, well read my first post AGAIN. i wasnt asking what to do if i 'stranded' at a station without repair facility, i was pointing out that the 'you cant undock cause your structure has damage'-mechanic should be adressed if ccp is gonna change something about structure repairing like thew OP suggested. It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
sAyArrrr Minmatar Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.30 01:58:00 - [23] Edited by: sAyArrrr on 30/10/2008 01:59:08 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 29/10/2008 20:55:25 Structure repair is fixing some very delicate areas of the ship with very complicated nanobots. Makes sence in a realistic way. Exept with minmatar ships. Fitting Bulkhead II's on it would be more like filling a ton with scrapmetal
Kurull Skullsplitter Minmatar Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2008.10.30 03:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Kurull Skullsplitter Cost me 4.4 mill ISK to repair about 45% of the armor on my Vargur yesterday because I was too lazy to buy an armor repair. The cost seems excessive, no matter the reason for it, when compared to the cost of fitting a repair mod and paying nothing else. Your ship costs several hundred million ISK on the Market - if you're driving expensive hardware you shouldn't be surprised to find out that it costs more to take it to a mechanic when you've screwed it up, rather than to do a patch-up job by yourself. mmmm you read something I didn't write. I was not surprised at all. I knew it would cost around that much. I simply stated my experience with it and my opinion of the cost.
Ambrosious Martin Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2008.10.30 06:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Spectre3353 Also, what is the deal with airline peanuts? Why do you they give two tiny bags? Why not just give you one bag that is twice the size? Thats the IWIN button right there!
Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.30 07:52:00 - [26] Edited by: Anig Browl on 30/10/2008 07:52:03 Originally by: Joss Sparq Originally by: Kurull Skullsplitter Cost me 4.4 mill ISK to repair about 45% of the armor on my Vargur yesterday because I was too lazy to buy an armor repair. The cost seems excessive, no matter the reason for it, when compared to the cost of fitting a repair mod and paying nothing else. Your ship costs several hundred million ISK on the Market - if you're driving expensive hardware you shouldn't be surprised to find out that it costs more to take it to a mechanic when you've screwed it up, rather than to do a patch-up job by yourself. All true - I don't argue structure repair should be as fast as armor. But it feels a little imbalanced from a game mechanic point of view, for two reasons: 1. If you repair in a station, it costs the same to repair HP whether it's armor or structure. For self repair, you pay a cost in time rather than ISK; but it costs about 12x as much to repair structure as armor. 2. If you're using remote repping, armor is repaired by another ship at close to the same rate as a self-repair (actually slightly less, but close). But if you use a remote structure repper, you repair almost 10x as many hp per minute as you do with a self-repper. Self-repper has a 30 second cycle and repairs 100hp per cycle (large) for a total of 200 hp/min; remote repper has a 6 second cycle and repairs 192hp (again, large) for a total of 1920 hp/min. Of course, the tradeoff is that remote repping uses about 4x as much cap...but a quick station dock will refill all the cap, or cap booster charges are very cheap by comparison. Seems kinda out of proportion to me. I don't want hull repping made as quick and easy as armor repair or remote repair, but surely it could be juiced up a little bit - preferably in a skill related way, eg reducing cycle time instead of cap need.
Samaritan Azuma Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 09:50:00 - [27] objectively armor is just a coating where structure is actually what makes the body of the ship, repairs should take longer no matter how you slice it you can fill in holes w/ putty, but itll take a while to make a chair out of it If it weren't for downtime, I wouldn't make stupid posts.
Guygeboe	Posted - 2008.10.30 11:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Samaritan Azuma objectively armor is just a coating where structure is actually what makes the body of the ship, repairs should take longer no matter how you slice it you can fill in holes w/ putty, but itll take a while to make a chair out of it This, and a big DOHH for the Topic starter....
Anig Browl Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.30 16:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Guygeboe Originally by: Samaritan Azuma objectively armor is just a coating where structure is actually what makes the body of the ship, repairs should take longer no matter how you slice it you can fill in holes w/ putty, but itll take a while to make a chair out of it This, and a big DOHH for the Topic starter.... Looks like some people didn't read the thread. Nobody is suggesting it should take the same amount of time. Neither of you are addressing the documented imbalances. For one thing, if the time/cost to do structural repairs is inherent, as you say, then it should surely be nonlinear too - that is, it should be faster to repair 90% structure to 100% than to repair 10% to 20%, since the ship would be considerably more stable in the former case. For another thing, your structural loss doesn't affect your speed or agility, which don't make much sense either. Indeed, the fact that you can rep structure while moving/maneuvering at enhanced speeds is illogical...in reality, accelerating or aligning a damaged craft would tend to slowly rip it apart. Fact is you can take a ship that has only 10% structure left, fit some modules (eg remote reppers!) and everything will work just fine as long as you don't get shot at and don't mind the look of your ship on fire.
Samaritan Azuma Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.30 22:22:00 - [30] Quote: Seems kinda out of proportion to me. I don't want hull repping made as quick and easy as armor repair or remote repair, but surely it could be juiced up a little bit - preferably in a skill related way, eg reducing cycle time instead of cap need. ummm yes he did If it weren't for downtime, I wouldn't make stupid posts.

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