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Saju Somtaaw
Gallente
Department of Defence
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Posted - 2008.11.05 04:19:00 -
[31]
Pod pilots are referred to as the "Immortals", so my guess is that is a young healthy body they get cloned into.
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My views don't represent those of my corporation or alliance. |
Khemul Zula
Amarr
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.11.05 04:35:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Khemul Zula on 05/11/2008 04:40:35
Read the Night's Dawn Trilogy if you want some thoughts on clone rebirth/immortality. It has an entire society based around transfering the memories of a person at the moment of death into a computer/clone body to be become immortal (sound familar). Even goes into a bit of philosophy (okay a hell of a lot of philosophy  ) on the soul/afterlife.
As for the OP, my experience with the truely religious is they don't need logic/proof to believe what they do  . Although in the case of the Amarr, there is no real reason cloning/pod-pilots would change their views on an afterlife/soul.
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Mister Zero
Synergy Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.05 04:37:00 -
[33]
...for the same reason people believe in trolls. |
Kransthow
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.05 04:55:00 -
[34]
Since when does religion require an afterlife? or even a soul for that matter?
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.05 05:37:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Aloriana Jacques on 05/11/2008 05:37:27
Because the Amarr is a heavily theological society in ways similar to those of the dark ages/feudal times where the king/queen was considered to be the embodiment of god and could not be questioned. This is quite similar for the Amarr in the shape of the emperor/emperess. They are the embodiment of god.
As for the use of clonning, it is part of Amarr culture that states that those of the royal line who are closest to god cannot be cloned. To do so is to taint the flesh, spirit, and soul and destroy the connection to god. They still embrace cloning among pod pilots because pod pilots are special in their own right. To say 'no' to pod pilots would give their ennemies an advantage, and pod pilots and their ability to clone makes them unique and fantastic weapons.
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Slanty McGarglefist
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:08:00 -
[36]
The Amarr believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster. He bestowed upon them the power of clonaging and lazors!! PEW PEW!!!!
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 Originally by: CCP Wrangler
No
Doh! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:15:00 -
[37]
I don't require my subjects to be mortal 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Julius Avitus
Amarr
Kor-Azor League
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:27:00 -
[38]
All hail Emperor Jones, then.
On the topic, there was a plot twist that the Tetrimon characters supposedly didn't get cloned. They would view cloned people as kind of zombies. It isn't quite as simple, though: There's the question of predetermination and all such nasty things. Some might take it fatalistically, if you get cloned it is the will of God and so be it. Some might believe that the soul gets transferred. Some might believe that the clone body is some kind of a golem, with the mind transferred but the soul in the afterlife (assuming they believe in the afterlife). There are other rewards in religion that afterlife, I mind you: For example, if you do well, God will reward your descendants, and if you sin, He'll punish your offspring to the fourth generation or such. In the modern days, specially on the realm of the magnificent intertubes, it's all about the mystical "ME, ME, ME". For Amarr, the individual is nothing. The Amarr, the Empire, the people is everything - and at least on some degree, the Emperor, the Heirs, the Holders have power because it is believed that they are God-appointed to lead the others. Just like the Masks of Power chronicle says about the Caldari megacorp police forces: Even if in reality it seems they're far from the protectors of workers they pose themselves, the people do view the whole as what it is presented to them, even if their day-to-day experience differs on individual cases. Similarly, after a few thousand years of learning that the Holders are God-appointed, even a deviant Holder doesn't get immediately thrown to the angry mob because he MUST be God-appointed, and going against God is bad (at least for faithful Amarr). The Amarr do have safeguards, though, such as the Holder's liege, the Theology Council, and in the most extreme cases, the Speakers of Truth.
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Zakalwe Staberinde
Gallente
Malevolent Evolution
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:27:00 -
[39]
because we can.
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Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
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Posted - 2008.11.05 07:32:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Khemul Zula
Edited by: Khemul Zula on 05/11/2008 04:40:35
Read the Night's Dawn Trilogy if you want some thoughts on clone rebirth/immortality. It has an entire society based around transfering the memories of a person at the moment of death into a computer/clone body to be become immortal (sound familar). Even goes into a bit of philosophy (okay a hell of a lot of philosophy ) on the soul/afterlife.
As for the OP, my experience with the truely religious is they don't need logic/proof to believe what they do . Although in the case of the Amarr, there is no real reason cloning/pod-pilots would change their views on an afterlife/soul.
Actually, Peter F. Hamilton's next series, Pandora's Star/Judas Unchained, is even more appropriate to this discussion. In that, people actually are cloned and have their memories transferred into new bodies. The time the memories are recorded is critical to "who" wakes up in the new body, especially given that memory editing is possible.
As to the OP: there's a general opinion amongst some Amarr in the backstories (such as the novel) that clones do <i>not</i> partake in the same soul that the "natural" body does. The vast majority of Amarrians don't want to have anything to do with pod pilots, and believe that transferring your memories into a new body destrous the solu. Most people in the EVE universe aren't capsuleers.
You should probably try and dig up some of the Jamyl Sarum backstory-questions about who exactly is in her cloned body after her suicide/podding are quite the hot topic right now.
FWIW, beliefs about the existence of an individual soul, immortal or otherwise, aren't necessarily linked to belief in a god or gods. The two beliefs are logically independent, and you could easily have one without the other (Buddhism, for example, or certain radical interpretations of Judaism spring to mind.)
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Steve Zodiak
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Posted - 2008.11.05 08:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
I have long thought the Ammarr back-story unrealistic. There is some rational basis for the cultural and political differences between the other 3 races, but the idea of a technologically advanced Theocracy - at its' most extreme using another race as slave labour - just strikes me as a fanciful anomaly. It was obviously devised by CCP as a rich source of fictional colour, as witness the prominence the Ammarr get in the Empyrean Age novel By contrast Tony Gomez found little place for the Gallente Federation, being the most "traditional" form of organistaion and readily recognisable by us as such,in the novel; basically they were merely a plot device to be made use of by The Broker.
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
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Posted - 2008.11.05 08:25:00 -
[42]
im a 100% amarrian but check my name.. We dont believe. we just sell the book for overpriced isk. And strike fear on the other races who read it.
that with our sucide actions ^^
www.garia.net |
Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2008.11.05 09:58:00 -
[43]
It's magic, there is no need for logic.
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∞ TQFE
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Revelation Space
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Posted - 2008.11.05 10:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nikla Uthaan
Precedent: The Cylons of Battlestar Galactica (modern series) believe in God, yet they are always reborn.
only if they are within range of their "cloner", so in effect they can choose to die.
Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Rramar Claime
Amarr
Task Force Zener
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.05 10:57:00 -
[45]
I hope the op realizes that the amarr is the biggest empire in new eden, the nation is HUGE and only the pod pilots and a few lucky ones use cloning.
Amarr is not the couple thousand pod pilots only...
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes." |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.11.05 11:10:00 -
[46]
Belief is subjective. It does not require proof or a basis in reality.
Just use some imagination to fill in all the holes and you're good to go(d).
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Ideas for: Mining
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Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.05 13:04:00 -
[47]
I don't know much about the amarr religion but I think it's a mixture between chinese religion and christianity. There is only 1 god but the emperor as seen as sort of a representative(?) of god and is thus holy in himself, which is why they can not be cloned (well they can but it's against the law). I'm pretty sure the emperor (or empress) would like to keep themselves in their status of god so they see no reason to completely revolutionize their society and upset their power because it doesn't sit right.
As for how they can believe their is a god? well if you've read the empyrean age book and seen some of the stuff Jamyl can do you could understand it being thought of as divine (it's not... at least I don't think it is, I got nfi how she does what she does). The average person can believe in a more layed back god/vengeful god to explain bad cases of luck. tbh you can never disprove god and having faith is a good reason for support, justifying your believes or just for morals and system of government.
I'm kinda suprised that we have never heard any sort of religion out of the caldari/gallente, almost all cultures on earth have some sort of religion. It varies in degrees from old mythology such as old greek gods/titans and legends and what not which are usually not believed, all the way to ways of life such as christianity and others. Even lots of african/indian tribes believe in spirits and what not. For example do you know that some Icelanders believe in elfs? I hear Icelanders also make good games lol
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Ms Massacre
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Posted - 2008.11.05 13:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Illwill Bill
As far as I know, the Amarrians dislike cloning, but accepts it because pod pilots have an enormous tactical advantage.
Technically speaking, nothing stops the original soul from leaving the first body after apodding. The brain is scanned and the data then uploaded to the clone, but the soul is supposedly not detectable by electronics.
So you are saying that after you lose your first pod, you become a soulless heathen speeding through space?
SWEEEEEET!!
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.05 14:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ms Massacre
So you are saying that after you lose your first pod, you become a soulless heathen speeding through space?
SWEEEEEET!!
Nonono. A RICH, SUCCESSFULL, POWERFUL, soulless heathen speeding through space. ;)
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Doctor Remulak
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Posted - 2008.11.05 14:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
Obviously OP has never read Pax Amarria.
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Rhatar Khurin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.05 14:55:00 -
[51]
The way i see it, none of the higher echelon Amarrians even believe in god, especially the priests and merely use it to bestow a sense of divinity upon themselves.
Also, have you noticed that none of the praises said by Amarrians actually has god or Jesus or w.e in it. They all just say Emperor.
I've always thought that they consider the Emperor to be practically a deity and therefor worship them instead of some intangible being.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.05 16:38:00 -
[52]
The Amarrians believe in God because they've all been brought up to do so, and unorthodox views are discouraged.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Polinus
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.11.05 16:40:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
since when all religions must be tied to the concept of afterlife or the concept of soul? Do a bit of research. A LOT of faiths are not based upon that.
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Leviathan9
Gallente
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.05 17:15:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Leviathan9 on 05/11/2008 17:15:48
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
Just cos they believe in a God, doesn't mean they're christian or believe in afterlife or a soul for that matter.
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.05 17:31:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
There is a soul. Just ask yourself why you cannot create duplicate living clones of yourself. According to the technology it should be ease, you have a datastream and multiple bodies. But somehow only one clone can exist at a time, because there is and can only be one soul.
It is the other way around, clone technology proves the existence of a soul.
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Orney Astarde
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Posted - 2008.11.05 17:38:00 -
[56]
Being resurrected as a clone doesn't imply you've come back to life, or that you're still the same person. In fact, a lot of EVE lore implies otherwise.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.11.05 17:43:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Dephar Arcarnum
how can the amarr believe in god when clones prevent the afterlife and the use of a soul is shown as a fake?
There is a soul. Just ask yourself why you cannot create duplicate living clones of yourself. According to the technology it should be ease, you have a datastream and multiple bodies. But somehow only one clone can exist at a time, because there is and can only be one soul.
It is the other way around, clone technology proves the existence of a soul.
This is wrong actually. You can have more than one clone active at any time (The Broker is/was doing that) but it starts to become a unique independent personality from the original immediately after activation due to differing experiences and thus different memories. There can only be one original active at any one time.
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Ideas for: Mining
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