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Memorya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 07:30:00 -
[1]
I'm minmatar .. so i skilled my projectiles and all gunnery support skills to lev 5.
i also skilled some of missiles skills ... now i'm asking myself .. if i made a mistake to skilled for the guns .. why ?
in lev 4 missions:
with missiles you allways hit the target, you don't have to watch the optimal distance .... they are affective from 0 to max missiles range .. and you don't need any support modules
with guns .. another story .. guns are effective only in range between x and y .. you have allways to watch the distance, they need support modules to be more effective .. and they not allways hit ... yea i saw that when my gun strikes .. strikes for good ... far more damage than missiles .. but that happens rarely ...
i'm doing something wrong ? what is the strategy to use guns effectively ? some advice please ..
Metal lives forever !! |
Tombozo
Caldari
Bagman's Bookkeeping Services LLC
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:36:00 -
[2]
What you're doing wrong, is eBaying a character with high skills so that you can be 'good' at EvE.
You did buy this character, right?
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Dasfry
Caldari
Demio's Corporation
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.07 09:51:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tombozo
What you're doing wrong, is eBaying a character with high skills so that you can be 'good' at EvE.
You did buy this character, right?
I believe how he got his character was irrelevant to the question.
***********
Dasfry, Director
Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:09:00 -
[4]
You might get better answers in the "Missions" forum, but I'll try.
Originally by: Memorya
what is the strategy to use guns effectively ? some advice please ..
Try to keep your targets at the guns optimal, and match our optimal ranges for your guns if you mount several sizes for some reason. Better do less damage on some guns due to loading ammo with a lower damage but higher range than not hitting the target and not doing damage at all.
This might mean that you have to fly away or towards the targets before you start firing to get into optimal range depending on what guns you mount. Generally short range guns (blasters and ACs) are not good for L4 missions since the big BS targets are usually orbitting at range and you cannot MWD in most missions - thus you lose a lot of time ABing to the targets.
"Kiting" can be effective too - basically you fly away from the NPCs and thus you're forcing them to follow you and keep the transversal down.
Also use a ship that can use drones and/or missiles, and then optimize your guns for one target type while using the other weapon system for secondary targets. For instance you could use big rails and shoot BS and BC with them while using medium or light drones against smaller targets - or vice versa. It all depends on your skills.
As a side note, missiles don't always hit perfectly, but I am not a missile user myself so I leave that to someone else to explain :).
Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn" |
Kessiaan
Minmatar
Army of One
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:30:00 -
[5]
Missiles are 'easier' than guns but guns can out-DPS them most of the time if you can do some fast mental math and watch your range & transversals.
The main thing with guns, aside from optimals and falloffs, which you seem to have the hang of, is tracking.
Gun tracking is measured in radians per second, and in general bigger guns track slower, though use of modules and rigs can improve this. To really be good at using guns, especially long-rang, slow-tracking guns like railguns and artillery, you need to add transversal velocity to your overview and be able to quickly work the math to convert that tracking speed into something useful.
Lucky for us, radians are really simple. 1 radian is the distance on the edge of a circle equal to its radius. Basically one radian = however far you are from the target.
So if you have a weapon with a tracking of .5 (not hard with small blasters and autocannons), and you're shooting at someone 1km away who's going 500m/s, your guns can track them and you can expect to do full damage as .5 rads / sec at 1 km equates to a max transversal velocity of 500m/s.
If you're shooting at an crazy-fast Crow going 10km/s orbiting at 20km with a railgun that only tracks .1 rads/sec, you can expect most shots to miss since .1 rad/sec at 20 kms works out to a max transeversal of 2km/s.
If you can't track your targets there's some things you can do...
- Fit smaller guns. Even in the same size class small guns generally track better.
- Don't use T2 ammo, which generally has a tracking penalty. Use faction ammo instead if you need the extra hitting power.
- Fit tracking computers in your mids, tracking enhancers in your lows.
- Use a stasis webifier if they're close enough.
- Fly in a straight line. This will cause the transversals on a fast orbiter to slow when they're behind you and let you land some better this.
- Stop. This will take your own motion out of the equation and lower their transversal.
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Memorya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 10:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tombozo
What you're doing wrong, is eBaying a character with high skills so that you can be 'good' at EvE.
You did buy this character, right?
no .. i created this character myself alone ....
for some time i was in 0.0 killing rats .. there i had three or four NPCs ... i was able to keep distance and shot them from a long range ... in that case guns are great .. but i didn't have a lot of opportunities to be in 0.0 so to make ISK i had to do something in empire ..
so i done lev 4 missions .. but there are a lot of enemies at one place .. various sizes .. from frigates to cruisers and BS ... and in that crowd i had difficulties with my guns ...
if you have enemies from 0 to 70km with missiles you don't have any problems wich target to hit ... but with guns you can kill only ones in optimal range .. and with a typhoon wich i use for lev4 missions .. is too slow to go to optimal range
right now i'm using 4x cruise missiles and 4x 720mm artilery ... this setups works for now ..
cruise missiles and guns for BC,BS .. drones for frigates ...
but i want learn how to use guns effectively in missions with enemies all around me ..
Metal lives forever !! |
arbiter reformed
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:02:00 -
[7]
pve= ravens/ being lame
pvp= megathrons/ maelstroms/geddons/abbadons/blasterokhs and general wtfuberpwnage.
missions get boring fast unless you are indeed boring yourself. grow some balls buy a maelstrom wardecc a mission corp and kill there deadspace fitted ravens
Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator |
joan arcangel
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Posted - 2008.11.07 12:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Memorya
if you have enemies from 0 to 70km with missiles you don't have any problems wich target to hit ... but with guns you can kill only ones in optimal range .. and with a typhoon wich i use for lev4 missions .. is too slow to go to optimal range
right now i'm using 4x cruise missiles and 4x 720mm artilery ... this setups works for now ..
cruise missiles and guns for BC,BS .. drones for frigates ...
but i want learn how to use guns effectively in missions with enemies all around me ..
Phoon's can be great in lvl 4 missions
high slots are cool
i have target pianter drones or web drones in drone bay to help with the gun hitting
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Memorya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: joan arcangel
Phoon's can be great in lvl 4 missions
high slots are cool
i have target pianter drones or web drones in drone bay to help with the gun hitting
drones ... of course .. i didn't thought about drones .. fighter yes but not support ... thanx for remind me about drones
Metal lives forever !! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:44:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kessiaan
If you're shooting at an crazy-fast Crow going 10km/s orbiting at 20km with a railgun that only tracks .1 rads/sec, you can expect most shots to miss since .1 rad/sec at 20 kms works out to a max transeversal of 2km/s.
Unless it's doing it on AB you'll actually have .3 rad/sec effective tracking due to sig radius differences.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Harrent
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Kessiaan
If you're shooting at an crazy-fast Crow going 10km/s orbiting at 20km with a railgun that only tracks .1 rads/sec, you can expect most shots to miss since .1 rad/sec at 20 kms works out to a max transeversal of 2km/s.
Unless it's doing it on AB you'll actually have .3 rad/sec effective tracking due to sig radius differences.
So does that make it 6km/s Max trans?
=----------=
Semper Fi |
Daergaar
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.11.07 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Memorya
drones ... of course .. i didn't thought about drones .. fighter yes but not support ... thanx for remind me about drones[/quote
Could you use any more ellipses? They're not a replacement for commas and periods.
In any event, target painting is probably better for missile boats as their damage depends more on sig radius than a blaster or railgun boat does. Statsis Webifiers are good for killing close range targets.
Generally if you're firing your railguns at smaller targets, you're going to want to fit smaller railguns or fit some tracking computers.
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Tac Ginaz
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.09 05:03:00 -
[13]
memorya...
for missions the best phoon setup is the 'sit here aligned to warp out and kill them' approach.
4 cruise launchers, 4 guns, 5 sentry drones, 3 mediums and 4 lights.
The sentries, at tech 2, do significant damage at long ranges. mediums and lights+cruise missiles will easily take care of frigates and cruisers that get close to you.
this is for PVE of course.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.09 06:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Memorya
so i done lev 4 missions .. but there are a lot of enemies at one place .. various sizes .. from frigates to cruisers and BS ... and in that crowd i had difficulties with my guns ...
if you have enemies from 0 to 70km with missiles you don't have any problems wich target to hit ... but with guns you can kill only ones in optimal range .. and with a typhoon wich i use for lev4 missions .. is too slow to go to optimal range
right now i'm using 4x cruise missiles and 4x 720mm artilery ... this setups works for now ..
720mm are cruiser sized guns, for best effect on a battleship like typhoon use 1400mm or 1200mm artillery, your damage and range should increase a lot then. The typhoon is one of the most skill intense BS in the game, you need guns, missile and drone skills to utilize it well.
The trick with shooting projectile turrets like artillery is to watch the enemies traversal velocity (add the column to your overview), the higher this is the harder to hit the enemy (I find this more useful for pvp, but also of use in pve). I find your best effect in pve is to sit at optimal plus about half the falloff (so for 1400's I like to sit between 40 and 60 km out depending on ammo, evidence from my use of 1400's suggest you'll hit cruiser and frig sized targets up to about 25km out below this tracking becomes an issue, for BS sized targets 10km seems to be about the limit on tracking, this is without tracking enhancers or computers). For missions against rats that like to orbit close (Angels) I like to fit an afterburner to keep distance from them. Don't waste time trying to kill stuff that comes in under your tracking, for this try using drones, 5 Hammerhead II's will eat Cruisers and frigs in no time.
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Memorya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.10 17:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Memorya on 10/11/2008 17:08:29
thanks all for advices...
i have max gunnery skills .. and almost all max drone skills .. so i switch from T1 drones to T2 ... i'll try to use sentry drones (never used them) ... instead of 4x cruise / 4x 720mm artillery i'll use 4x cruise 2x 1200mm guns .. or maybe 3x cruise 3x 1400mm
Metal lives forever !! |
Alexanndru
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.16 06:39:00 -
[16]
I myself trained for a Raven to spare me of all of that stuff.
Now kicking ass in LVL 4 missions...soon will buy a CNR :D if i dont have too big costs in
other directions... |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.16 08:09:00 -
[17]
Quote:
and you don't need any support modules
Incorrect. You always needed BCU's, you also need at least one painter now.
Besides those guns will be better for you when you eventually get into pvp.
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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Soporo
Quote:
and you don't need any support modules
Incorrect. You always needed BCU's, you also need at least one painter now.
Besides those guns will be better for you when you eventually get into pvp.
A painter is nice but I have no place on my Cerberus for it without breaking the tank. It does not matter though, in missions the Cerberus kicks really hard with good missile skills & to be honest it now quicks battleships harder with the QR patch than it did previously. |
Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Noob Much Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Memorya
i'm doing something wrong ? what is the strategy to use guns effectively ? some advice please ..
With anything above say 10M SP, guns > missiles any day ... the only problem is, you picked the wrong guns 
Train lasers and cross-train for Amarr ships. Seriously.
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:45:00 -
[20]
Not sure projectiles have this option (haven't started using them although I'm sorta skilling them), when flying my Rokh, I'll switch between tungsten and antimatter charges for range. The tungsten has a range bonus, so it changes my optimal to pretty far out there. The antimatter has a negative, I think, but more damage. Also, I usually have half 425mm and half 350mm (of size large) guns, so that gives me even more options with distance.
Battle goes something like this:
Always assume I'm kiting (rats are following, thereby cutting their transversal), or if they're running, I'm cutting back at them to kill the transversal.
Warp in with tungsten in both 425mm and the 350s. This gives me max range, but not the hottest DPS. With this range, I'll kick on the 425s, and try to take out any jamming or cap sucking frigs. This is about 100km out.
At about 80km I can flip on the 350s with tungsten for some added damage, and usually I'm starting in on the bigger ships. The frigs are too close now, and their transversals are too high.
At around 60km I switch the 425s from tungsten to antimatter. Kicking nice tail about now, as the antimatter has a lot more punch. Usually I unleash combat drones on the frigs about now. I don't target frigs with guns. I let the drones take care of them.
At ... 45-50km I'm going all out antimatter. This is my top DPS, and I'm hopefully taking down any real heavy hitters by now.
Anything at around 30km or just below and I have to turn off the 425s. They just can't track at those distances. I've found that most rat BSs won't or can't get inside this diameter with me usually. If they do get in too close, and I'm still taking too much damage, I'll scoop up the drones, warp out, and warp back in to start over at max range.
That's pretty much every fight. If it's a mission where I'm surrounded immediately, I'll just warp out, and warp back at max range. If it's a mission with only one BS or something, I'll switch to smaller guns or some missles (I'm caldari, so I actually started training missles first, but switched to guns) to help take out the swarms of smaller ships some of those missions have.
Hope that helps. |
PCI E
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Posted - 2008.11.19 04:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: nether void
Not sure projectiles have this option (haven't started using them although I'm sorta skilling them), when flying my Rokh, I'll switch between tungsten and antimatter charges for range. The tungsten has a range bonus, so it changes my optimal to pretty far out there. The antimatter has a negative, I think, but more damage. Also, I usually have half 425mm and half 350mm (of size large) guns, so that gives me even more options with distance.
Battle goes something like this:
Always assume I'm kiting (rats are following, thereby cutting their transversal), or if they're running, I'm cutting back at them to kill the transversal.
Warp in with tungsten in both 425mm and the 350s. This gives me max range, but not the hottest DPS. With this range, I'll kick on the 425s, and try to take out any jamming or cap sucking frigs. This is about 100km out.
At about 80km I can flip on the 350s with tungsten for some added damage, and usually I'm starting in on the bigger ships. The frigs are too close now, and their transversals are too high.
At around 60km I switch the 425s from tungsten to antimatter. Kicking nice tail about now, as the antimatter has a lot more punch. Usually I unleash combat drones on the frigs about now. I don't target frigs with guns. I let the drones take care of them.
At ... 45-50km I'm going all out antimatter. This is my top DPS, and I'm hopefully taking down any real heavy hitters by now.
Anything at around 30km or just below and I have to turn off the 425s. They just can't track at those distances. I've found that most rat BSs won't or can't get inside this diameter with me usually. If they do get in too close, and I'm still taking too much damage, I'll scoop up the drones, warp out, and warp back in to start over at max range.
That's pretty much every fight. If it's a mission where I'm surrounded immediately, I'll just warp out, and warp back at max range. If it's a mission with only one BS or something, I'll switch to smaller guns or some missles (I'm caldari, so I actually started training missles first, but switched to guns) to help take out the swarms of smaller ships some of those missions have.
Hope that helps.
why not use blasters?
sorry noob question |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.20 12:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: PCI E
why not use blasters?
sorry noob question
Range.
Especially when coupled with the fact that you can't use MWD in missions, so it takes you ages to close distance with AB; that most NPCs want to orbit at 30km+ distances; and that you're up against multiple targets, so unlike PvP where you just get into range and gank, you'll have to do it all over again against the other targets.
By the time you cover e.g. 40km with your afterburner to get into blaster range of a BS (35km initial separation + 15km the NPC moves away from you during this time - 10km weapon optimal), you could have killed that target already with railguns, and you haven't started doing any damage with your blasters yet.
The situation gets even worse against sub-BS targets, which are faster (so take longer to catch up) and have less hitpoints, so the damage difference matters less (i.e. if your railguns take 60 seconds to kill a BS compared to 30 for blasters, being in blaster range gives you a 30 second advantage. If the rails to 10 seconds to kill a cruiser compared to 5 for blasters, you need to be able to get into blaster range in under 5 seconds to make it worthwhile). Plus, smaller targets are hard to hit anyway thanks to transversal, so if you have the option to pick them off when they're 50km+ away it's much easier than trying to hit them when they're in a 10km orbit.
So blasters are really bad as a general mission tool. They can be OK for certain missions where the rats start close and like to orbit close - e.g. Damsel In Distress - but as a general rule you will die of boredom waiting for your ship to travel 40km at 300m/s, every time you need to kill a new NPC.
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nether void
Caldari
Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.20 16:52:00 -
[23]
Gartel nailed it. I don't fit an AB on my Rokh, mainly because I'm shield tanking. The rats chasing me is a much better scenario than if I'm trying to chase the rats, and only running at 100ms.
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Jonas 'Jonesey' Arniman callsign: nethervoid
CEO
Shrapnel Industries
"You like to blow s*** up, and we like to make that possible."
PubChan: SHRAP |
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