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Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.10 18:18:00 - [1] Blasterships will be in a bad shape soon but I was thinking how a small fix would help them without touching blasters. Blasterships that are most effected are: Thorax/Deimos Brutix/Asterte Hyperion I would put the mega there but it has a tracking bonus and is better off than these ships that are listed. Interesting enough they all have some crappy pvp unviable bonus: Thorax/Deimos -> MWD cap penalty reduction Brutix/Astarte -> Armor rep amount bonus Hyperion -> Armor rep amount bonus I suggest changing all these to a "MWD speed bonus", this will allow them to get over the getting in range part much better. But wont allow them to dictate range due to the ultra short range of their turrets and the fact they will be well within the new scramblers range. This change in bonus will get rid of some long undesired bonus' and give blasterboats a chance out there. - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Dyaven Interstellar Mining and Research	Posted - 2008.11.10 18:35:00 - [2] On the Brutix and 'Rax, definitely. Leave the Hyp as is though.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.11.10 18:43:00 - [3] Im not against a blaster boost,but you forgot eagle,rokh and harpy. Yeah not gallente but still can be used as blaster ships.
K'Ji	Posted - 2008.11.10 18:45:00 - [4] Originally by: Kunming I would put the mega there but it has a tracking bonus and is better off than these ships that are listed. I suggest changing all these to a "MWD speed bonus", this will allow them to get over the getting in range part much better. Even though the Mega has the tracking bonus, it still has to 'get into range' the same as the others, so why leave it out?
StuckNJita	Posted - 2008.11.10 19:07:00 - [5] I was reading the changes, and some MWD's will now have a lesser cap penalty, does that mean we'd actually be gaining cap on the Deimos / Thorax? Otherwise the bonus is completly useless. Food for thought aye? -- ------------------ Yes, the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese..
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.10 19:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Naomi Knight Im not against a blaster boost,but you forgot eagle,rokh and harpy. Yeah not gallente but still can be used as blaster ships. I read your other thread about boosting missiles even more, as if they are not much better than most turrets now! Stop asking for caldari boosts, as you'll earn alot of disrespect from non caldari pilots in these days where minmatar and gallente are getting nerfed with every patch. Besides you dont want an MWD bonus on caldari boats, explained below... Caldari turret boats are meant to shoot with rails, as with ppl fitting blasters on them was purely to make use of their huge optimal bonus without having to make the hussle of getting in range like gallente boats do; so together with the fact that no caldari blasterboat wasted a mid on a MWD (since u were using blasters kinda like pulses), you really want to give them a bonus they'll make lil use of? Back on topic, I have mixed feelings about the mega, IMO 2 strong turret BSs is a wierd thing. The mega is good with rails in fleet battles due to its tracking bonus but its drone bay is useless then and hyperion does more RAW turret DPS than it. But then again the whole point of the ultimate blaster BS is to dish out the most blaster DPS. We could have both mega and hype have 8 turrets but mega losses on its drone bay then, it would result in 2 very similar ships. Despite all I count hyperion as more of a blasterboat than the mega, since it does more turret DPS than the mega... - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.11.10 19:30:00 - [7] Originally by: StuckNJita I was reading the changes, and some MWD's will now have a lesser cap penalty, does that mean we'd actually be gaining cap on the Deimos / Thorax? Otherwise the bonus is completly useless. Food for thought aye? -- Yes, fitting a MWD does gain you cap on those ships. I have gallente cruiser IV and on sisi right now a t2 mwd has a 17% cap penalty; when fit to my Thorax it says it has a 3% capacitor bonus (which is sort of a weird way to apply the -5% per level, but... whatever... CCP maths are odd...). I'd imagine that with cruiser V I would have an 8% capacitor bonus. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:00:00 - [8] Anybody tested if 2x Warp Core Stabs neutralize the scrambler from disabling your MWD? IMHO, WCS penalties don't matter much to a blaster boat and this way you are losing tank capability anyways. --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: StuckNJita I was reading the changes, and some MWD's will now have a lesser cap penalty, does that mean we'd actually be gaining cap on the Deimos / Thorax? Otherwise the bonus is completly useless. Food for thought aye? -- Yes, fitting a MWD does gain you cap on those ships. I have gallente cruiser IV and on sisi right now a t2 mwd has a 17% cap penalty; when fit to my Thorax it says it has a 3% capacitor bonus (which is sort of a weird way to apply the -5% per level, but... whatever... CCP maths are odd...). I'd imagine that with cruiser V I would have an 8% capacitor bonus. Gallente Cruiser V, Meta 14 MWD... I see a 22% Capacitor Bonus. How long will i take before CCP fixes this? ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Shadow's Caress	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:48:00 - [10] should ccp even fix the broken cap bonus on the thorax/deimos? I mean now that it actually gives a cap bonus it is finally effective, and in a way that is quite useful to blaster boats. I say leave it as is.

Kiviar Caldari Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Elhina Novae How long will i take before CCP fixes this? Well they've known about it since the first speed changes were put on to sisi a few months ago. I would hazard a guess of "quite a while if at all".
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Kiviar Originally by: Elhina Novae How long will i take before CCP fixes this? Well they've known about it since the first speed changes were put on to sisi a few months ago. I would hazard a guess of "quite a while if at all". It'll probably get balanced the same way the Vindicator/Vigilant did. Originally both those ships had a 10% MWD cap bonus for their Minmatar skill, meaning that at lvl5 you did indded receive a 25% boost to capacitor. Eventually CCP realised this was silly, so they changed the bonus to what it is now but gave both ships a boost tot heir base capacitor in order to compensate. I would imagine the Rax/Deimost will get something similar.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.11 01:21:00 - [13] The best thing for blaster ships would be a web strength bonus. It's the only way to 'add tracking' at short range (blaster range) w/o changing either the base blaster effectiveness, or the overall ship effectiveness outside of web range with other stuff like rails or null ammo. The Kronos is the only workable blaster ship after the patch, and the only reason is it's web bonus. It's not overpowered, and it's not hurting anything. Give it to the rest of the blaster ships. Save maybe the frigs.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Bellum Eternus The best thing for blaster ships would be a web strength bonus. It's the only way to 'add tracking' at short range (blaster range) w/o changing either the base blaster effectiveness, or the overall ship effectiveness outside of web range with other stuff like rails or null ammo. The Kronos is the only workable blaster ship after the patch, and the only reason is it's web bonus. It's not overpowered, and it's not hurting anything. Give it to the rest of the blaster ships. Save maybe the frigs. Kronos is a good solo blastership with its web bonus, but I was thinking in the frame of gang warfare, where you can have an oneiros boost you (just like a gang of ravens could use a TP buddy). Getting in range is more of an issue than keeping the target there, the longer it takes the more cap you burn and the more the dmg you take, since unlike the tracking, MWD speed cant be effected by a logistics ship! - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Talon Calais Gallente Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:37:00 - [15] Originally by: Naomi Knight Im not against a blaster boost,but you forgot eagle,rokh and harpy. Yeah not gallente but still can be used as blaster ships. You can also hit at 3-5x the distance a gallente ship can.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:51:00 - [16] Here's a better idea: change useless armor and MWD cap bonuses to 5% blaster ROF, and boost blaster tracking a bit. If you really want to give them a MWD boost, make it an increase to MWD overload bonus. That way it helps blaster ships get into range, but doesn't let you abuse it with rails + perma-running MWD. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.12 13:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Here's a better idea: change useless armor and MWD cap bonuses to 5% blaster ROF, and boost blaster tracking a bit. If you really want to give them a MWD boost, make it an increase to MWD overload bonus. That way it helps blaster ships get into range, but doesn't let you abuse it with rails + perma-running MWD. You can hardly perma run your MWD on a gallente turret boat. But I would OFC prefer the %5 blaster ROF (bonus only to blasters!) over a MWD speed bonus.. - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Franconis Gallente Dark Skullz Empire Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:45:00 - [18] I like the idea of a web bonus on blaster ships. It makes sense that a ship whose role is to be a point blank face smasher should keep it's enemies very close.
s33ker Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Kunming Blasterships will be in a bad shape soon but I was thinking how a small fix would help them without touching blasters. Blasterships that are most effected are: Thorax/Deimos Brutix/Asterte Hyperion I would put the mega there but it has a tracking bonus and is better off than these ships that are listed. Interesting enough they all have some crappy pvp unviable bonus: Thorax/Deimos -> MWD cap penalty reduction Brutix/Astarte -> Armor rep amount bonus Hyperion -> Armor rep amount bonus I suggest changing all these to a "MWD speed bonus", this will allow them to get over the getting in range part much better. But wont allow them to dictate range due to the ultra short range of their turrets and the fact they will be well within the new scramblers range. This change in bonus will get rid of some long undesired bonus' and give blasterboats a chance out there. Your idea is to give 5 ships the exact same bonus? Fail
Lana Lanee Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:38:00 - [20] it's the best ideea tbh

Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:46:00 - [21] The bonuses on the Hyperion or the Brutix are not likely to be changed; all of the Tier 3 battleships and Tier 1 battlecruisers have the same racial equivalent bonuses (i.e. one tanking bonus, one gun bonus). I know that the repper bonus is useless in a lot of situations, but I think we're stuck with it due to game design issues. A web bonus similar to the Kronos would be nice but I doubt we'll be seeing that. I am actually rather excited by the Thorax et al. getting a cap bonus for using high meta MWDs. It's an indirect speed buff in that you can run your MWD longer now (lower cap consumption, higher base cap) so getting into range will be less painful even though you'll be moving a little more slowly. Tracking is still an issue with the web nerf, but at least on cruiser hulls you have the option of going after bigger targets that are slower and will have a harder time tracking you. Hybrid tracking and/or falloff rigs are also reasonably cheap and also help with the tracking issue. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.12 22:03:00 - [22] I dont see a problem with 5 ships getting the same bonus, after all thats the base bonus and not the T2 spec bonus. Being against that is like saying "OMG all amarr laser boats have the same bonus" Web bonus is like a "ignore patch changes" card and gives too much power to the bigger blasterboats vs small ships, which is one of the key points in the QR patch. So whats left is either an MWD speed bonus, or a blaster dmg increase (for making all that hassle of reaching a target worthwhile). The armor rep amount bonus' are bull****, with current mechanics of focused fire its as useful as a mining amount bonus on pvp setups. In addition to that Brutix and Myrmidon have the same crappy bonus, so basically even if its the gallente tanking bonus, where other races have a gank and tank BC gallente (which is the gank race) has 2 tank BCs. Hyperion being the most expensive T1 BS for gallente and having the description of ultimate blasterboat can not live up to its name and is only useful in low sec gate camping! REP AMOUNT bonus has to GO... Deimos and thorax still have uses for their MWD bonus, but it would give them a true assault role if they could close the distance from one target to the other much faster, gaining more viability in gang warfare. - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:38:00 - [23] No it won¦t fix blaster ships, since It don¦t catches the fact that actual other ships now come in your range because they do know that you can¦t track them any more in a proper manner. The only thing that would matter would be a Web Strenght Bonus, but well I don¦t think this will happen, because the brillant spirit of the great QR patch that strictly goes against what Blaster ships are suposed to do. Blaster ships are agressive, Blaster ships froce other ships into fights, Blaster ships arn¦t paticular well tanked in the most cases, Blaster ships nuke Tanks to a deacend Amount before they actualy die. Blaster ship that can¦t efficent fight at her range are quite pointless, even against same sized Targets. There is zero reason to improve the ability to get into web Range when the Web Range itself don¦t prove a serious advantage to the Blaster ship any more. The 60% Web don¦t give it the needet advantage, and even turns in a disadvantage when counting in the AB and Scrambler changes. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:46:00 - [24] Originally by: s33ker Your idea is to give 5 ships the exact same bonus? Fail whats wrong wiht that? OMG sniping ships all get range bonuses YOU fail.
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:47:00 - [25] this: "Web bonus is like a "ignore patch changes" card and gives too much power to the bigger blasterboats vs small ships, which is one of the key points in the QR patch."
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2008.11.13 11:59:00 - [26] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 13/11/2008 12:04:29 There are two problems with blasterboats. 1/ They suffer more with the relative speed increases up close than any other weapon system. 2/ They don't have enough of an advantage over medium range weapons up close to be worthwhile in a gang. The first can be solved by fixing the tracking formula with the sig radius multiplier of: *ln[AFalloff/Range]**, where A is an integer probably, between 2 to 4. That was perfect - it meant you never hit frigates (as now), had around 30% damage on cruisers (unlike now) and didn't miss Battleships and Battlecruisers up close (unlike now) for a Megathron with a single 60% web (Gallente BS V) in the ~2km range (c.f. Ion II optimal is 3.375km with AM). The second problem is only realistically solved by a nerf to medium range weapon DPS (not ideal given how tanking is these days) or a significant damage boost to Blasters. I don't believe any equivalent-sized ship should be able to tank a Blastership once it gets up close - it should be overwhelming firepower making up for the battering you take on the way in. In gang warfare you'd then (possibly) send Blasterboats after separate targets - no point going for a primary that is dead before you get there. -------------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.13 12:57:00 - [27] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 13/11/2008 13:03:29 Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 13/11/2008 12:57:25 Originally by: Naomi Knight Im not against a blaster boost,but you forgot eagle,rokh and harpy. Yeah not gallente but still can be used as blaster ships. So can an Abaddon or a Tempest, technically. LOL... OK, I'm done being a jackass, I'm going to go back and actually read the thread now ^^ EDIT: Man, this feels like late 2005 all over again.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:31:00 - [28] I think the best solution so far is to give blasters a significant dmg boost. It should be abolutely rewarding to get into melee range with your target with all the disadvantages your weapon system and ship has. - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.11.17 15:39:00 - [29] Okay, this may be OTT or just not sensable: How about adjust a bonus so that it doubles the cap use on a mwd BUT ALSO DOUBLES the speed again from the short boost. This would make sure the blaster boats could get in range quick, but unable to nwd all over the place all day like any other mwd equipped ship.


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