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Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:18:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Bangkirai on 15/11/2008 14:21:58
Target BS.
13:52:52 Combat Your Paradise Cruise Missile hits Domination Drone, doing 289.5 damage.
13:52:52 Combat Your Paradise Fury Cruise Missile hits Domination Drone, doing 185.9 damage.
enough said.....
missile info fury:
EM damage 543.84, base shield 394, base armor 153.6, explosion radius 262, max flight time 27sec, max velocity 8111.25 m/s, damage reduction 4.7, explosion velocity 83.636
missile info standard t1: em damage 424.875, base shield 300, base armor 120, explosion radius 142m, max. flight time 30sec, max velocity 8111.25, damage reduction 4.5, explosion velocity 99.498
Conclusion: CCP totally screwed up.
1 thing they did screw up for sure is: BS sized rats are flying way faster then any player ship and were not nerved at all.
2 t2 missiles designed for BS sized are not usefull anymore.
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:22:00 -
[2]
use the right ammo for the right sieze ;)
fury for larger target, precise for smaller, normal for same (but yes tehre is a need for some missiles t2 for same sieze) |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:24:00 -
[3]
zomg he have to think :D |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:25:00 -
[4]
fury are ment for BS sized.
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Dacril
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:28:00 -
[5]
I am using t2 missiles. The dmg I'm dealing went down considerably, but there are ways to compensate.
1- buy implants that add to exp. vel. and that reduces the exp radius (they dont go in the same slot)
2- use rigs to enhance exp. vel.
3- use a target painter
4- target prediction navigation to V
5- guided missile precision to V
You wont deal as much dmg as before, but thats still a fair way to deal with it.
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Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:30:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Bangkirai on 15/11/2008 14:34:24
Edited by: Bangkirai on 15/11/2008 14:30:46
I am using 5 percent implants and the only skill missing is guided and target prediciton lvl 5 :D
This raven is using 3x rigor t1 rigs.
Thank you for your time....
Seems for the average caldari noob, that uses t1, not much has chanced, but if you are trained above average and fit above average, your dps and effiency dropped way too much.
Yes, its not worthwhile to train t2 cruise anymore, if t1 is doing better average.
Especially if you take into consideration, that you also have to take out bc/cruiser sized.
Hitting small ships can be done, not much problems with that, but that t2 specialized ammo is barely relevant anymore is silly.
This also counts for the precision cruise, they barely do more damage then the t1 on different targets tested.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:32:00 -
[7]
If your data is accurate, it needs to be fixed.
Assuming all possible variables in your test were removed or isolated, and assuming the target was the "design target" for the missile AND that the target was not moving as "UNUSUALLY" high speed, Fury should out-perform standard in all case, and by a significant margin.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:33:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: KhaniKirai
fury are ment for BS sized.
Learn to read.
He was shooting a Battelship target.
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KhaniKirai
fury are ment for BS sized.
If they are no longer effective against such then don't use them.  |
Epidemis
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Epidemis on 15/11/2008 14:38:02
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: KhaniKirai
fury are ment for BS sized.
If they are no longer effective against such then don't use them.
What's the point of it then, when the formula punish so severely that even against a BS you get 33% less dmg.
Btw, rofl at the noobs telling people to use the correct size. |
5pinDizzy
Amarr
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:42:00 -
[11]
I think the people in this thread can read, just that not all of them know what a domination drone is. Focusing on what they usually encounter that's called a drone rather then putting 2+2 together. |
Overbrain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 14:49:00 -
[12]
You are skipping another very important fact for this patch that is
"Missiles are not to be used without painter and webifiers anymore"
But what is the purpose of missiles having long range now ? is the question to be asked.
There is still purpose for that too. the answer is.
"Because you can still use them to annoy people at long range"
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Overbrain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:00:00 -
[13]
Right info for "Domination Drone"
Shield: 3,500hp
Resistances: EM: 43%, Expl: 73%, Kin: 63%, Therm: 53%
Shield Boost Chance: 68%, Amount: 0hp, Duration: 5 second(s)
Armour: 6,500hp
Resistances: EM: 43%, Expl: 73%, Kin: 63%, Therm: 53%
Armour Repair Chance: 68%, Amount: 470hp, Duration: 10 second(s)
Hull: 8,000hp
Signature Radius: 350m
Orbit range: 7,600m
Orbit velocity: 175m/s
Maximum velocity: 1,400m/s |
Grunanca
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Overbrain
You are skipping another very important fact for this patch that is
"Missiles are not to be used without painter and webifiers anymore"
But what is the purpose of missiles having long range now ? is the question to be asked.
There is still purpose for that too. the answer is.
"Because you can still use them to annoy people at long range"
Or you could have a wingman in a close range ship with web and paint... its an MMO, maybe caldari aint the solopwnmobile pve race anymore, but they are still just as good as the other races at pve. And when used in teamwork, they are evil in pvp too. |
Overbrain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:06:00 -
[15]
Im just guessing that rage torps would still do more damage against a bs , but keeping in mind that for ccp , bs standards are now around 90 m/s max, plated etc battleships are even lower. 80 m/s and usual sig radius around 400 .
CCP just didnt bother changing npc statistics, and the slowest npc battleship does around 139 m/s now.
I think it works as intended , as the intensions were nerfing missiles and nerfing missions for missile users as a whole. |
Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Bangkirai on 15/11/2008 15:14:23
Edited by: Bangkirai on 15/11/2008 15:11:55
Target painter is not even needed for the t1 missiles or precisions.
It only helps the fury.
with good skills, the target painter on a raven gives 36 percent sig bonus and 84km fall off with 42km optimal.
Which means, on most of the range of a cruise missile, it barely does anything.
Webbing? I dont have the dronespace to use web drones to go on 54km, beside i need to keep light drones for anti scramblers.
Standard web never reaches the targets.
Sorry, i dont mind they changed missiles a bit, but why didnt they even bother to analyze stuff correct and make sure, the longer trained skills, more costly ammo stays a bit effective as well?
At this moment, the stuff is so hardcapped, that precisions and fury are just not usefull.
13:48:46 Combat Your Paradise Cruise Missile hits Devilfish Drone, doing 55.1 damage.
13:48:46 Combat Your Paradise Precision Cruise Missile hits Devilfish Drone, doing 75.3 damage.
Do you really think people gonna switch to precision for such a minor difference in damage?
Especially if the t1 can go way further then the precisions, so for pvp uses the t1 is still better?
Sorry, but its just out of propertions these changes.
I always adapted since i started to play eve. Luckily i can use t2 blasters and t2 rails and fly gallente as well and have tons of skills in drones.
So, i just look on what ship I can fly most effective for the role i want to do.
At this moment, no offence to the people that say: adapt, but gallente drone boats or maybe an hac is way better then the cruise ravens.
Yeah, that means when flying gallente, its 8mil of missile skills and bs5 of the caldari down the drain, but maybe in 1 or 2 years they change stuff back......
People warned ccp, when they had the nano fiber giving mass reduction on test server, but ccp didnt listen and the playerbase had to suffer 1 a 1.5 year of nanofleets..... Till it got patched now.
CCP didnt nerf the speed of npc¦s it seems, which is also the main problem...
For me its pretty clear, ccp didnt do their job well and rushed this patch, without bothering to test a lot of setups.
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Daitanfutekina Unsoya
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:17:00 -
[17]
16:49:07 Combat Your group of Juggernaut Torpedo hits Angel Webifier, doing 387.2 damage.
7 seconds later...
16:49:14 Combat Your group of Neutron Blaster Cannon II places an excellent hit on Angel Webifier, inflicting 2704.6 damage.
That's a kronos/golem combo..
dual gal navy webs on the kronos is 99% velocity reduction, dual 30% painters on the golem with my skills 49.5% each.
the same is achievable without the webbers if you can get the little guy to follow you..
but the point is.. Two Void Large vs what would've taken 20 torpedos..
Two concerns to raise is, javelin torps getting their exp sig increased with t1 and faction torps..
They are supposed to be precision ammo aren't they?
And the exp velocity is 71m/s so anything over that speed tanks.
Thats just torpedos, cruise and other missiles have been hit just as hard.
All to make things more to their own class. talk about going overboard.
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Overbrain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:28:00 -
[18]
The problem is clear , eve is a very complicated game with many situations in it.
And ccp tried to solve missile problem with a general solution, whereas the general solution solved one situation and ruined the rest.
I vote that each missile category should have its own damage calculation, this way rebalance for one category of missiles wouldnt ruin others ie torps/cruise/heavy/ .
Oh noes, this means more work for ccp  and we just got a new patch already . So well . Gotta wait another couple years for the next rebalancing try.
Until then , we should threat game as it is ie. not using missiles or caldari ships anymore where they perform lower than their gunboat counterparts.
For a lot of people, this would mean starting a new character or a new skill set to train, but imho this is better than whining as it wont solve anything , and only this way ccp can see that "Something is wrong with caldari".
Just a quick database search would show lol.
[prediction of future]
100 players.
95 gunners
5 missile users.
But guess what, for missions especialy, the graph was this just before patch.
100 players.
80 missile users.
20 gun/drone users.
So ccp is right at some point . But the way to fix this shouldnt be to generaly nerf missiles, only to render some weapon systems/situations/missiles completely useless, not of a choice anymore.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:37:00 -
[19]
Once they make short range turret ammo worthwhile, they're allowed to focus a bit on T2 missiles. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:43:00 -
[20]
Faction missiles have always hit better then fury's anyway.
T2 has never equaled "better". |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.15 15:56:00 -
[21]
T2 fury was better for ratting qua damage and cost then normal t1's.
Yes faction is way better, but also way more expensive.
All the theoretically stuff its nice, but its what works in game and at this moment, some things are not working as intended it seems to me.
Thought, i would also try my drake with t2 heavy assault launchers, but now it seems the patch notes say:
Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%.
Funny however IN GAME, the assaults shoot less far then before patch? especially the javelin assaults?
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Sebea
Bottomfeeders Science and Research
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Grunanca
Or you could have a wingman in a close range ship with web and paint... its an MMO
Hi, just letting you know this is bullsh*t.
In CCP's own words, "we want to keep small gang and solo play viable".
Its not really possible to PVP or PVE solo anymore, with any real effect.
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Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:11:00 -
[23]
I believe this post will help your PVE problems. No, its not a Rickroll - nor is it a new "i win button" - However, its the best discussion/observation/suggestion for dealing with the problems we Missile boaters have encountered... vOv
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=923910&page=1#1
Good luck to all.
Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Ethics, Honor and Respect. Without the first two, you can't buy the last one...
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Overbrain
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I believe this post will help your PVE problems. No, its not a Rickroll - nor is it a new "i win button" - However, its the best discussion/observation/suggestion for dealing with the problems we Missile boaters have encountered... vOv
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=923910&page=1#1
Good luck to all.
Oh please, we are not talking about why we should use painters and webifiers or more gank then less tank . We are talking about that even with webs and painters on, some supposed to do more damage missiles are actualy doing less.
As i used to read everywhere .
"In summary, missiles are broken"
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Thought, i would also try my drake with t2 heavy assault launchers, but now it seems the patch notes say:
Rocket, assault missile and torpedo javelin missiles will now do -10% less damage but range has been increased by 50%.
Funny however IN GAME, the assaults shoot less far then before patch? especially the javelin assaults?
It meant over T1 missiles, not compared to their old stats. Javelin Torps have the same range as they did pre-patch, but an extra bit of damage compared to what they used to, etc.
_____________________
My opinions plus a tablespoon of water may be substituted for your own. |
Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:22:00 -
[26]
Yeah, i did read those posts, but I am already better trained then what that person is advising....
With 64mil sp, i got quite a lot of choises to fit and compare stuff.
And sorry to say it, but on this moment, it seems its not worthwhile to use a raven or missile BC anymore, if you can also fly another race their ships, that are working now better then yours, even if you had almost maximum skills for your original race.
Sorry, but then something is wrong in the game, when t1 is getting better then t2 on their intended targets and when it gets more beneficial to fly only certain races.
Before patch, it barely did matter if I would fly dominix or a raven. The raven was slightly better, then again, it's also around 20 a 30mil more expensive.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.15 16:24:00 -
[27]
mhm intresting becouse hail is indeed much worse than rf emp ;]
Quote:
It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
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Posted - 2008.11.15 20:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Overbrain
Signature Radius: 350m
Orbit range: 7,600m
Orbit velocity: 175m/s
Maximum velocity: 1,400m/s
Sounds more like a BC-sized target… |
AYRI RAVINIKA
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:31:00 -
[29]
I've always found all the t2 ammo variants to be highly suspect in nearly all combat situations when compared with t1 in general and especially compared to faction ammo. This applies to all, even the scorch lovers. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.11.15 21:59:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Overbrain
Signature Radius: 350m
Orbit range: 7,600m
Orbit velocity: 175m/s
Maximum velocity: 1,400m/s
Sounds more like a BC-sized targetą
Could be a typhoon or a shield extended drake. 350m is on the small size, most BSs actually used in PvP are 400m sig rad or above.
T2 short range ammo is nerfed ridiculously hard. Fury and turret ammo share the same fate. I'm surprised that the T2 missile rebalance didn't catch the uselessness of fury and try to make it more attractive. T2 short range ammo being dumb is one of those things that is so obvious to me that I wish I could get it into CCPs skull somehow.
Alas, you will have to deal with T2 short range ammo = lol. Use faction. |
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