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Uhr Zylex
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:37:00 -
[1]
Something has to be done about small/solo PVP.
Yesterday I was roaming 0.0 with a newly bought arazu. With recon probes in bay I was looking forward to ambushing some unsuspecting ratters.
I enter one of my first systems. There is a raven on scan, yay. He is within probe range - so I drop a probe and start scanning. By the time I get a result he is at a deathstar POS and I move on. This is fine. He had the resources in system and the reflexes to be safe!
Sadly, this was only one of 10 ratting ships that evaded me in 5 hours of roaming.
After this a common pattern would emerge. After I enter a system and identify a ratter I would swiftly drop a probe. After this one of these things would occur:
1) Ratter logs. Oftentimes I get a hit on his safespot and warp there. I get 3 points on him, my guns and drones are eating away at shields and what happens? No shock here.. he disappears from space.
2) Ratter warps to a safespot and cloaks. I do what? Probe him out? Go back to the previous system and try to be "faster" than him next time? Even if I would have gotten a point before the cloak, he could have just logged and we would be back to the previous scenario.
PVE with little risk is what high sec is for. This was in 0.0. It's not that I'm bitter, I PVP for fun. Sadly, last night's roaming just reminded me that solo PVP in 0.0 is not fun. I used to do high sec wars for a few months, which was mostly gatecamping. Even though it was quite static it was a ton of fun, most people didn't have time to log off before I was able to agress them.
Seriously, is this what it has come to? Some ratter logs and I am supposed to log too and hope to catch him by surprise? "Yeah!! You didn't see that triple logoff with a sideorder of logging-on-an-alt-and-adding-you-to-addressbook-waiting-for-your-box-to-become-green there did you!"
Sometimes it seems that CCP does not play their own game at all. |
Silverace
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 13:56:00 -
[2]
The ability to idle in hostile space (cloaking) is vital to 0.0 in general, as it would suck to resort to meta-actions if one wants to go afk 20min while deep in hostile space.
About your first point though, something could be done. When holding a gate in 0.0 a few months back, a member of my gang went DC for 10min in our HIC bubble. This caused his ship to remain at the gate, within the bubble, rather than warping away. I see no reason why regular points shouldn't prevent a logged/DCd ship from warping the same way. |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:04:00 -
[3]
This is going on for years, and while being cloaked isnt an issue but rather being cloaked forever if you like - the logging mechanics really are frustrating.
Fitting a cloak gives you a penalty and hurts any fitting, ratters not so much as ratting is damn easy, but thats gettin changed - but theres no penalty to just logging off.
A simple fix and a good start would be to make it possible to aggro ppl after theyve logged off.
Means when you shoot a ship, scramble it or agress it in some way itll stay in space just as it would when the pilot is still online.
Another mindnumbing mechanic is the Logon/off thing that makes you appear ina different location youve been when logging of the first time.
With this its easy to evade hostiles that spotted where you logged, as example a capital ship at a pos that has been destroyed and replaced by a hostile, surrounded by bubbles, can still get out simply by logging on and off til it appears at a safespot and then jumps out. |
white kight
SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:13:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
This is going on for years, and while being cloaked isnt an issue but rather being cloaked forever if you like - the logging mechanics really are frustrating.
Fitting a cloak gives you a penalty and hurts any fitting, ratters not so much as ratting is damn easy, but thats gettin changed - but theres no penalty to just logging off.
A simple fix and a good start would be to make it possible to aggro ppl after theyve logged off.
Means when you shoot a ship, scramble it or agress it in some way itll stay in space just as it would when the pilot is still online.
Another mindnumbing mechanic is the Logon/off thing that makes you appear ina different location youve been when logging of the first time.
With this its easy to evade hostiles that spotted where you logged, as example a capital ship at a pos that has been destroyed and replaced by a hostile, surrounded by bubbles, can still get out simply by logging on and off til it appears at a safespot and then jumps out.
Surely unless it has a wcs scrambling it would not be an issue even if they ctrl q? |
Hurint
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:30:00 -
[5]
I think I was in V3X- last night, running a plex.
I'm pretty sure it was you who was trying to find me, but I'm not 100% sure, since there are a few people with terrible names with Z's and such up here :P If its not you, ignore the following :
You were scouted one jump out, you didnt bother cloaking fast or avoiding being hit by scans. I think you had a Taranis with you too? both of you left at the same time etc. However, during the time you were there I had enough time to see you, scan you down and get my plex ship and alert my afk friend doing logistics that you were there.
I mean, I even had time to kill a few Dire plit frigs scramming me and get to a plex - I didnt even see you dropping probes?
To be quite frank, you might be the worst prober/scanner/ganker/wtf ever. I dont think you deserved to get a single kill if you cant at least try harder. |
Uhr Zylex
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hurint
I think I was in V3X- last night, running a plex.
I'm pretty sure it was you who was trying to find me, but I'm not 100% sure, since there are a few people with terrible names with Z's and such up here :P If its not you, ignore the following :
You were scouted one jump out, you didnt bother cloaking fast or avoiding being hit by scans. I think you had a Taranis with you too? both of you left at the same time etc. However, during the time you were there I had enough time to see you, scan you down and get my plex ship and alert my afk friend doing logistics that you were there.
I mean, I even had time to kill a few Dire plit frigs scramming me and get to a plex - I didnt even see you dropping probes?
To be quite frank, you might be the worst prober/scanner/ganker/wtf ever. I dont think you deserved to get a single kill if you cant at least try harder.
That was not me. Also, I am not talking about the difficulty of scanning out plexrunners. I am calling for a change to logoff-mechanics. |
Hurint
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:47:00 -
[7]
Fair enough, But I'm sure I saw your name sometime last night :P
And as for it being too easy, yes it often is... but then again, its such a fine balance. I think that cloaked ships should at least uncloak for the minute if they log while cloaked. |
Fragito
Dragon's Rage
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:50:00 -
[8]
Ever heard of directional scanning? otherwise a Titan could align and get safe before probing works.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:52:00 -
[9]
cloak/logoff whine - CHECK
now I have to look for falcon/ECM whine and I have all of them for this evening ... |
Sen Zinei
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:11:00 -
[10]
it's not cloaking that is problem. seeing everyone in local is. i never understood why i can see everyone in local.
also, adding people to adressbook should also only show their online status if they explicitly allowed it.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:04:00 -
[11]
Simple solution: log off in space = ship stays for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro.
-----------
Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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Vanthropy
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:33:00 -
[12]
simpler solution.
bring a falcon
jams actually prevent ships from logging because they can't target the 'ctrl' and 'q' buttons. |
YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.11.17 20:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sen Zinei
it's not cloaking that is problem. seeing everyone in local is. i never understood why i can see everyone in local.
also, adding people to adressbook should also only show their online status if they explicitly allowed it.
I was thinking the same thing and still am.  |
Draahk Chimera
Caldari
Priory Of The Lemon
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:59:00 -
[14]
One sec and I will give my opinion on some of the things said here. Not that I really think a dev will read it but I like to fool myself.
1. Cloaking. Despite the fact hat I regulary use a cloak on my ratting ship myself I am of the opinion that cloaks shouldnt fit on ships not in the recon family at all. First you have the cloaking ratters. There is no way to defeat that, the risk/reward thing in 0.0 is completely offset by cloaks on ratting ships. Now if you have a pos in system; you, your corp or your alliance has made an effort, you are activly conquering the resourses in that system. Secondly there is the pvp gang who all fit a cloak, if they run into a defence gang they can simply cloak and wait completely safe. A single guy in a dangerous ship can also shut down a ratting system, by not even being at the computer. At fanfest the devs said they had a hard time balancing a skill que because they wanted people to actually log and play at times. But still they allow this "afk-pvp".
2. The loggofski. Yes, there is no reason why logging off should save you from probes. Adding 15 minute timer if you get aggroed after loggof is a wonderful idea. People complain this will punish people who crash mid fight and what not. Still they changed the bubbles so that you do not emergency warp if you lag out or crash inside. 9 times of 10 if you crash in a fight it is because you jumped into a big fleet, and yes they will have bubbles so youre dead anyway. Having a 15 minute aggro timer if aggro after log will punish isk-seller and basically no one else.
3. Removing local. If local is removed every single ratter in 0.0 will die. That easy. Replace loacal with scanner you say? Well of course the hostiles will just use force recons to find and point the ratter, thus scanner will help not at all. If 1 and 2 goes through the only safety for ratters will be warping to a pos. Those things can be attacked and blown up. There will be wonderful multi-alliance wars over the resourses.
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Uhr Zylex
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:25:00 -
[15]
I agree that at least making ships always stay for 15 minutes would solve a lot of problems. It's such a simple thing to do and I've yet to see a serious answer from CCP about this, which has been suggested numerous times in the past. |
Vy'kar
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.18 00:22:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vy''kar on 18/11/2008 00:26:46
Edited by: Vy''kar on 18/11/2008 00:23:01
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Simple solution: log off in space = ship stays for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro.
as a pvper and a ratter (done alot of both in my time in eve in high low and null sec space) i can understand ur idea but 15 mins is a very very long time that 15 times the current game mechanic which tbqh is way WAY to much of a nerf to people that have bad connections to the net and far to big a boost to pvpers looking for cheap ganks (i do them oftern aswell)
btw dont let the corp ticker fool u this is my 6th or so char and i was a member of MDK when we did the bruce smart bomb fleet
5 mins tbh is more than enough and its only 5 times the current game mechanic far more reasonable and a 5 times increase but to balance it out for empire i would ask for it to be applied there aswell (the normal 15min from player agro as normal ofc)
remember 5 mins is more than enough time to scan probe someone wen u have good skills if they are out of warp wen ur probe finishes and they havent loged u have loads of time to kill them
to fix point 1 of this thread ie the cloaking on ratters (farmers etc) i would ask for this
the current mechanics for cloaks must stay after for covop cloaking ships and ships that have the BONUS to cloaks (bombers)
what will change is the cpu cost of proto cloaks and improved cloaks to double current cost and make them probable on any ship without the bonus i call it not designed for cloaking not a perfect cloaking system
this would mean adding a role bonus to all covop, stealth bomber, blockade runners (new bonused ship) and cloaking recon (not the combat ones they not designed to cloak) making them unprobable while cloaked and to restore the cpu cost to current costs so they dont loose cpu from this change
the ships with the bonus would ofc still be very very very hard to catch ofc as they are now but the cloaking ratting problem will be fixed to a certain extent
atm proto cloaks dont take enough cpu on a raven to mess up the fittings (downgrading to large booster not xlarge as always more cpu kind) this would fix that
this means they would have to setup a pos in system for safety
im sorry for wall of text but 15mins for dc/log off is far to much to ask for
edit just thought of sommit we could also make it so they apear on the direction scanner with the real range and right click lockable but not on overview untill fully locked and agroed the time it takes must be over 10 seconds for the fastest locking cepter which gives the ratter abit of time to decide to fight or try to make another run for it |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:37:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vy'kar
Edited by: Vy''kar on 18/11/2008 00:26:46
Edited by: Vy''kar on 18/11/2008 00:23:01
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Simple solution: log off in space = ship stays for the full 15 minutes, aggro or no aggro.
5 minutes
5 minutes I don't mind, 15 minutes all the time is pretty much crap though. I suspect many of the people lobbying for that have never tried to play Eve on bad connections. Bad infrastructure, poor wireless, comcast, even a few poor sods on dial-up (yes, eve DOES work on dial-up, but god help you come patch day). Some of those connections can be fixed (I've got a pretty solid one now), others can't.
5 minutes is plenty to probe someone down and kill him, unless he's in a dread or something. 15 minutes if you were aggressed before hand, of course. However, in connection with this, you would have to put in the ability to 'gracefully log' and wait 5 minutes rather than simply wait dead in the water for 5 minutes for someone to show up and kill you. An alert player SHOULD be able to evade probers and go back to his life without needing to wait until DT switching safes. |
Tairon Usaro
The X-Trading Company
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:38:00 -
[18]
when do people stop whining about game mechanics, that existed from the very beginning of this game ??????????????????????????????????????
To me it sounds like the following: a PvPer wants an easy kill, therefore he whines about cloaking and logging, but fact is, that a PvE ship is nothing more than a very cheap prey and its only defense against a group of PvPers is awarness of the pilot and a safespot, be it the literal one, a cloaking device , a POS or logging. If the PvEer was advertent, he would go for the safe, if not, the PvPers will get their well deserved kill. There is nothing wrong with this at all, risk reward profile sounds absolutly OK for me.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2008.11.18 09:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 18/11/2008 09:13:11
- make shooting rats give aggression timer (not getting shot by, only shooting)
- nerf cloaks on non specialized cloaking ships (if you want a cloaking bs, get a black ops or live with the fact that you can only fit half your equipment as the cloak takes the other half if your fitting both grid and cpu  )
solves only part of the problem, people can still hide in posses which is ok as those can be attacked at least although it is a tedious process and they can still clear aggression by jumping which maybe also should be fixed although I can hear the solo freighter pilots already whining from here 
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