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Kurt Gergard
Caldari
Custodes Mandati Imperii
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:10:00 -
[1]
Caldari whine that the missilles are bad... So what ? We still have the gun boat line up. And it looks better than ever. Hybrids get a range bounes so those are ideal ships for blasters that are able to overcome the biggest problems blaster have - range. So stop deapraing and adapt with me !
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"No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke |
Venduras
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:14:00 -
[2]
Even a Rokh with really good skills and range mods is lucky to hit 30km optimal using Null, try ABing with said Rokh.
Sure my Blaster Ferox can be fun in missions (emphasis on fun) but it isn't very effective as you have to hunt down each target as they try to orbit you at like 30-70km.
Blasters have to short a range for Caldari gunboat bonuses to compensate for usage in missions.
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
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Kurt Gergard
Caldari
Custodes Mandati Imperii
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:16:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Kurt Gergard on 17/11/2008 21:17:11
 Originally by: Venduras
Even a Rokh with really good skills and range mods is lucky to hit 30km optimal using Null, try ABing with said Rokh.
Sure my Blaster Ferox can be fun in missions (emphasis on fun) but it isn't very effective as you have to hunt down each target as they try to orbit you at like 30-70km.
Blasters have to short a range for Caldari gunboat bonuses to compensate for usage in missions.
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
Strange... my rokh hits 40 km with nulll and i am talking about pvp as well
EDIT:
Oh your talking about optimal ... my bad but fighting in fall off isn't that bad
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"No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke |
Venduras
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:17:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Originally by: Venduras
Even a Rokh with really good skills and range mods is lucky to hit 30km optimal using Null, try ABing with said Rokh.
Sure my Blaster Ferox can be fun in missions (emphasis on fun) but it isn't very effective as you have to hunt down each target as they try to orbit you at like 30-70km.
Blasters have to short a range for Caldari gunboat bonuses to compensate for usage in missions.
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
Strange... my rokh hits 40 km with nulll and i am talking about pvp as well
I'm assuming he is talking about missions, where you need a proper tank 
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Hellinthose
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:19:00 -
[5]
Dont know why everyone is unhappy. If you understand what you can and cannot do with missles then they are not bad at all... Just like Turrets, do not use them beyond their purpose.
No one would use a Large Hybrid on a inty that has a tranversal of 500+... why would u want to use Cruise on it?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:38:00 -
[6]
Rokh has sufficient range for close stuff combat. While i have seen it happen that the fleets dont warp on top of each other, but more like 30-40km distance, it will never happen really outside rokh's range since then the laz0r boats also cant hit anymore. (while at 30km range your mega is pointless and a minnie ship might just scratch your paint).
---------------------------------------------
Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Hellinthose
Dont know why everyone is unhappy. If you understand what you can and cannot do with missles then they are not bad at all... Just like Turrets, do not use them beyond their purpose.
No one would use a Large Hybrid on a inty that has a tranversal of 500+... why would u want to use Cruise on it?
Is there any gang setups or fleet setups where its more efficient to use a missile based ship than a turret based option?
The short answer is no
The long answer is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Borasatar
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Venduras
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
Well... there's a hidden bonus... You can the various ammo at 50% further range. I don't fly Caldari but I do fly Amarr and the Apoc has a range bonus and it *is* nice in the same way, at least for PVE.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:23:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Borasatar
Originally by: Venduras
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
Well... there's a hidden bonus... You can the various ammo at 50% further range. I don't fly Caldari but I do fly Amarr and the Apoc has a range bonus and it *is* nice in the same way, at least for PVE.
The Apoc and the Rokh do not really compare in this situation, though they share a preference for range.
The Apoc, in all reality, has THREE bonuses. First, it gets an outright lasers do extra damage bonus. Then it recieves a lasers have a longer optimal bonus. The third bonus is the result of the Apoc boost a bit back. Previously the Apoc recieved a +10% to capacitor capacity per level bonus. Now, the ship receives that bonus by default giving it the strongest sub capital ship capacitor around (though, admittedly much of that cap is going to be used to power those lasers).
Also, the pulse laser proves a better mission running weapon than the Rokh's blaster (the equivlanent weapon system). The inferior damage output is more than compensated for by dramatically increased range. And one simply cannot overlook the performance of Scorch L which gives the apoc the ability to reach targets beyond 60km with only minor reductions in damage.
That said, the rokh can work just fine in missions. It's not the best choice of course, but at least it looks cool.
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VoiceInTheDesert
Gallente
Diplomatic Disruption
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Venduras
Even a Rokh with really good skills and range mods is lucky to hit 30km optimal using Null, try ABing with said Rokh.
Sure my Blaster Ferox can be fun in missions (emphasis on fun) but it isn't very effective as you have to hunt down each target as they try to orbit you at like 30-70km.
Blasters have to short a range for Caldari gunboat bonuses to compensate for usage in missions.
On top of that, no damage bonuses.
Lol at Caldari *****ing about "only" 30km range. News flash: No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
I never quite understood why Caldari seem to think they should be able to hit for the same damage as other races from 10x the range (my favorite whine is about torps having "short" range when they have 3 times the range of any other "short" range option for the other races). |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.11.17 22:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hyveres
The short answer is no
The long answer is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The really extensive answer is: 'No, and that's because somehow the devs forgot that missiles can and should be made capable of being great for precision tasks as well, and thus nerfed the anti-frigate boats along with everything else, as they failed to provide recompensation in the ship bonuses on ships rather aimed toward this task, namely the Cerberus, all the smaller Khanid ships and all the Stealth Bombers.'
Missiles don't suck against everything now, no. Only against most everything below the size of a battlecruiser that isn't shield tanked. And rockets are now even more gimped than ever! For Hell's sake, CCP; No! Rockets are not a 'secondary weapons system'! You cannot solidly argue this, because not only does a quick look at the fits going around in-game and the metagame of things show that people use only one weapons system, and devote eventual free highs to more useful things like Nos and Neuts, because that's the only way to focus your strengths and get a reasonable strategy going, but you also introduced a whole bunch of ships clearly aimed at using only the blasted things and nothing else for their damage. And incidentally these ships are all evidently geared toward fighting small targets and making a good job of it when turrets can't because they are too close and pesky. Now, since missiles have been made rather useless against all small targets, guess which ships are all tank and barely capable of putting out any firepower at all. |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:13:00 -
[12]
Quote:
I never quite understood why Caldari seem to think they should be able to hit for the same damage as other races from 10x the range (my favorite whine is about torps having "short" range when they have 3 times the range of any other "short" range option for the other races).
Lets see...
because torpedoes have time delay to hit target. Compared to insta-damage guns. In the time ONE torpedo volley hits you, your turret equipped ship has put 3 or 4 volleys into the caldari ship.
because torpedoes can be intercepted by a defender missile. True, not all non-caldari ships can equip it, yet one defender launcher can, at max torp range, intercept 2 torpedoes per salvo. I've yet to see a turret ship that can have 2 of its weapon turrets disabled by 1 turret on another ship. |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hyveres
Originally by: Hellinthose
Dont know why everyone is unhappy. If you understand what you can and cannot do with missles then they are not bad at all... Just like Turrets, do not use them beyond their purpose.
No one would use a Large Hybrid on a inty that has a tranversal of 500+... why would u want to use Cruise on it?
Is there any gang setups or fleet setups where its more efficient to use a missile based ship than a turret based option?
The short answer is no
The long answer is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
Hi there, the Amar Navy would like a word |
NoNah
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Posted - 2008.11.17 23:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
News flash: No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
Hi there minmatar fleet would like a word. |
Tac Ginaz
Gallente
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.18 00:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Caldari whine that the missilles are bad... So what ? We still have the gun boat line up. And it looks better than ever. Hybrids get a range bounes so those are ideal ships for blasters that are able to overcome the biggest problems blaster have - range. So stop deapraing and adapt with me !
Of course! Thats the solution. All the skillpoints and the months spent training perfect missiles skills .. let's just forget all about it.
I'm sure the Drake, Kestrel, Stealth Bomber and Caracal pilots must be ecstatic that FINALLY they have the excuse to load blaster on their ships!!!
.. oh wait
-------------------------------------------------
Re-Design Stealth Bomber Weapons! |
Arkeladin
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Posted - 2008.11.18 00:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Quote:
I never quite understood why Caldari seem to think they should be able to hit for the same damage as other races from 10x the range (my favorite whine is about torps having "short" range when they have 3 times the range of any other "short" range option for the other races).
Lets see...
because torpedoes have time delay to hit target. Compared to insta-damage guns. In the time ONE torpedo volley hits you, your turret equipped ship has put 3 or 4 volleys into the caldari ship.
because torpedoes can be intercepted by a defender missile. True, not all non-caldari ships can equip it, yet one defender launcher can, at max torp range, intercept 2 torpedoes per salvo. I've yet to see a turret ship that can have 2 of its weapon turrets disabled by 1 turret on another ship.
Look closely folks, this is how to fail in a big way.
last I read, it took 3 Defenders to take down 1 torp, due to the fact that the torp has THREE TIMES as many HP than one Defender can remove.
That, and the fact that you can't target Defenders against specific torps, is another reason why Defenders fail so hard.
As did you, right then. Now, if you'd said any other missile than torps...you woulda been right on.
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The Slagh
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:04:00 -
[18]
Edited by: The Slagh on 18/11/2008 01:04:20
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Quote:
I never quite understood why Caldari seem to think they should be able to hit for the same damage as other races from 10x the range (my favorite whine is about torps having "short" range when they have 3 times the range of any other "short" range option for the other races).
Lets see...
because torpedoes have time delay to hit target. Compared to insta-damage guns. In the time ONE torpedo volley hits you, your turret equipped ship has put 3 or 4 volleys into the caldari ship.
because torpedoes can be intercepted by a defender missile. True, not all non-caldari ships can equip it, yet one defender launcher can, at max torp range, intercept 2 torpedoes per salvo. I've yet to see a turret ship that can have 2 of its weapon turrets disabled by 1 turret on another ship.
I've yet to see a whole rack of missiles be disabled by one midslot on another ship. (Tracking Disruptors OFC)
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Hellinthose
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Lets see...
because torpedoes have time delay to hit target. Compared to insta-damage guns. In the time ONE torpedo volley hits you, your turret equipped ship has put 3 or 4 volleys into the caldari ship.
because torpedoes can be intercepted by a defender missile. True, not all non-caldari ships can equip it, yet one defender launcher can, at max torp range, intercept 2 torpedoes per salvo. I've yet to see a turret ship that can have 2 of its weapon turrets disabled by 1 turret on another ship.
Dont know what you have been smokin, but according to this a torp can take 280 hitpoints, or 4 defender missiles.
Sorry to ruin your day :). |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:27:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I've yet to see a whole rack of missiles be disabled by one midslot on another ship. (Tracking Disruptors OFC)
Umm, Multi's and Racials screw us well enough. Oh, and for shame at anyone using the old, tired, silly "But FOF's!" defense. I've never seen (or even heard of) anyone killed by these.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.11.18 01:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Lets see...
because torpedoes have time delay to hit target. Compared to insta-damage guns. In the time ONE torpedo volley hits you, your turret equipped ship has put 3 or 4 volleys into the caldari ship.
because torpedoes can be intercepted by a defender missile. True, not all non-caldari ships can equip it, yet one defender launcher can, at max torp range, intercept 2 torpedoes per salvo. I've yet to see a turret ship that can have 2 of its weapon turrets disabled by 1 turret on another ship.
Hello! I'd like to say, first of all, that my mainstay ships at the moment are the Arbitrator, the Pilgrim, the Curse and the Apoc. I use, and very much understand the value of Tracking Disruptors, ECM and F.o.F. missiles, as they are some of the things that regularly **** on my parade. And I can, without a doubt, say that you and your missile-spewing buddies had it far, far easier than people like me before the patch, which is why I started on maxing a few missile skills.
Secondly, I'd like to take a moment to say that I agree with Arkeladin, and that you can go nibble something that the moderators would likely just snip out and ruin my comment for uttering. Even if I am against much of what happened this patch, and big portions of the missile concept.
Thirdly, I'd like to say that Defenders still suck balls, as they require anyone hoping to avoid missiles to fit launchers, waste slots and lose focus, which anyone with a bit of sense in their head will not, and that they will continue to suck balls and to be every man's last resort until CCP force us to use them. At which point people will quit playing the game.
Lastly, I'd say that you missile users had some coming, but that this is overdone and poorly thought out.
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Bootleg Greg
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Posted - 2008.11.18 02:05:00 -
[22]
Lol, I almost took out a Navy Issued Megathron in a joke fitted raven with 3x extenders, 1x tp, 2x invuln fields. Correct me if I am missing a slot or two, just emphasizing, it was a joke drake setup raven, with rages... Got it half way, the pilot had 40m ish sp as well... I like where it is at. If you want to shoot ceptors / frigs, don't use missiles, thats all, whoop whoooop whoooooop. It was a friend and me !@#king around, explaining the setup.
None the less, Caldari is still good race, along with the rest, they just use different strategies, learn how to use them, win at eve.
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Arsonin Flier
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
News flash: No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
Hi there minmatar fleet would like a word.
About how they have the shortest optimals? |
yrknat
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Arsonin Flier
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
News flash: No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
Hi there minmatar fleet would like a word.
About how they have the shortest optimals?
Yup, its one thing to get an occasional hit, its another to actually do meaningful dps at those ranges. |
NoNah
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:23:00 -
[25]
Edited by: NoNah on 18/11/2008 03:25:44
Originally by: Arsonin Flier
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
News flash: No other race's BS is worth **** beyond 12-15km with anything other than drones.
Hi there minmatar fleet would like a word.
About how they have the shortest optimals?
No, about how we fight in fall-off not in optimals.
Ironicly, it actually often deals the most damage at some 20km range(as in maelstrom, barrage, ambits) thanks to tracking.
Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 560948
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.18 03:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Soporo
Quote:
I've yet to see a whole rack of missiles be disabled by one midslot on another ship. (Tracking Disruptors OFC)
Umm, Multi's and Racials screw us well enough. Oh, and for shame at anyone using the old, tired, silly "But FOF's!" defense. I've never seen (or even heard of) anyone killed by these.
There are a number of reasons. First it seems that FoF's try to go after the first hostile target they see, be it a drone buzzing about your ship or a random collidable object in space. Second is the fact that your max range with the things is a mere 60km, meaning you won't be hitting most ECM ships as they will (even conservatively) be at twice that distance (exception being the Kitsune of course).
The only place I've actually heard about FoF's being used (successfully) in PVP is during tournaments, and that's hardly representative of the normal PVP arenas.
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Neyro7830
Gallente
Stormfront A.W.
Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 04:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Caldari whine that the missilles are bad... So what ? We still have the gun boat line up. And it looks better than ever. Hybrids get a range bounes so those are ideal ships for blasters that are able to overcome the biggest problems blaster have - range. So stop deapraing and adapt with me !
Of course! Thats the solution. All the skillpoints and the months spent training perfect missiles skills .. let's just forget all about it.
Stealth Bomber pilots must be ecstatic that FINALLY they have the excuse to load blaster on their ships!!!
.. oh wait
That made me a sad panda  |
BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.11.18 04:35:00 -
[28]
Edited by: BiggestT on 18/11/2008 04:36:01
Originally by: Kurt Gergard
Caldari whine that the missilles are bad... So what ?
Missiles were never bad.
I actually have no idea what all the whining is about.
Its only real change is the fact that it takes a long time for cruise to kill frigs that ppl are whining.
I say get over it, use drones for frigs, or the appropriate ship type to shoot frigs.
Forum whines != tq reality
EVE history
Missiles post-nerf |
The Vixen
Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.18 04:35:00 -
[29]
This thread made me laugh.
YAY, PEOPLE WILL START USING ROKHS BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE WAS NERFED THUS INDIRECTLY MAKING ROKHS BETTER.
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Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2008.11.18 05:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hellinthose
No one would use a Large Hybrid on a inty that has a tranversal of 500+... why would u want to use Cruise on it?
Hey mate, prob ain't nailing a frig, that sure as hell isn't the main source of complaints, the real prob -which most don't know about or just purposedly ignore- is that you can't even nail a battleship, unless of course you don't mind spending a couple hours till they pop!
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Quod Natura non dat, Salmantica non praesta |
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