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slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.18 20:22:00 - [1] So I posted a while ago in this forum that i was concerned that with the nano nerf people would move on in PvP to the next shiptypes that afforded PvP with the least risk to themselves (i always saw the nano hit and run type PvP in that vein - relatively cheap to do, low risk, high potential reward). I was concerned that cloaks would become the new Fotm and replace the nano age - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=917502 Of course my concerns were generally ridiculed and ripped apart... However, I have been recently flying around 0.0, as you do, looking for some kind of pvp with risk involved. 1 system, all areas in scan range, 5 hostiles, not one person on scan... left quickly, they must logically all be cloaked.. Come across another, this time friendly, gang. Combination of stealth bombers and recons .. Then I start browsing killboards, and check out BoB and ExE as they tend to be good representatives of what people are flying out there. Guess what... Recon / stealth bomber gangs Fotm. I will post some links to illustrate this, but if they are removed I would advise you to check them out yourself. example 1- http://www.killboard.net/details/289147/ example 2- http://exe.vizarts.de/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=50467 Now im notagainst the idea of such gangs in principle, but i am concerned that if they replace the nano gangs of old, which they seem to be doing, then how will this affect pvp roaming gangs? There are even less counters to cloaks than there were counters to nanos.. Will PvP become cloaky cloaky lame in roaming gangs? Can it be fun? Will people actually be able to find targets without being ganked? Will cov ops scouts be scouting for cloaked gangs? Is it time to implement a counter to cloaks to be able to find them? Will I be able to post this without being called a whiner? discuss
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.11.18 20:34:00 - [2] Whats the difference between those pilots in fast ships and those pilots in cloak ships? Former were nearly invulnerable and uncounterable without fast ships of your own. Cloakies can be countered with missiles, rails, lasers, autocannons, drones, fast ships, own cloakies, massive blobs, ew heavy gang... etc What does this mean? Eve became more balanced. Its not perfect, because seeing only bombers and recons becomes boring fast, yes. But more balanced.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.18 20:36:00 - [3] I find it extremely amusing that the data points to cloak heavy gangs. Not that that's unexpected.
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:02:00 - [4] Solution - Remove local discuss
slothe Caldari Murky Inc.	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:05:00 - [5] Originally by: Wannabehero Solution - Remove local discuss local removed = even more cloaks.
Thea Arsoniztik Red Tides Viewer Discretion Advised	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:11:00 - [6] Originally by: slothe Originally by: Wannabehero Solution - Remove local discuss local removed = even more cloaks. This. It gives people the element of surprise. If local was tweaked so that it would only show those who actually talk in local, then people could camp gates in cloaked up ships and people/scouts would have no idea that they are even there unless the uncloak. The thought of it makes me cringe.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:11:00 - [7] This anti-cloak pulse emitter could be released. A giant Smartbomb which decloaks everything within a set radius or gridwide, fitable by special ships or with high fitting costs. Not I-Win, but good enough to annoy gate hugging spys ^^
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:18:00 - [8] Aren't recons ships and anything cloaky supposed to be the kings of guerrilla warfare and behind the borders operations? Only reason they weren't used as much in the past was because speed was more efficient for that role. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Troezar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Perry This anti-cloak pulse emitter could be released. A giant Smartbomb which decloaks everything within a set radius or gridwide, fitable by special ships or with high fitting costs. Not I-Win, but good enough to annoy gate hugging spys ^^ Or better still space depth-charges
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:21:00 - [10] cloak isnt everything - putting the gist back into logistics
Syn G Gallente Pegasus Mining and Securities Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Troezar Originally by: Perry This anti-cloak pulse emitter could be released. A giant Smartbomb which decloaks everything within a set radius or gridwide, fitable by special ships or with high fitting costs. Not I-Win, but good enough to annoy gate hugging spys ^^ Or better still space depth-charges or make cloaks use cap. that way to perma cloak you have to gimp your fitting with cap chargers and stuff. flame away...
Siddy Minmatar Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:32:00 - [12] Remove local chat. Its not the cloaks that bother you, its the knowledge thats someone is cloakked in same system ^__^ Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Siddy Remove local chat. only if there is a way to spot cloaked ships, and ccp implement a way to actually uncloak ships in the system Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
El Torrent Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:37:00 - [14] Interesting. While I expected cloaking, and sniping HAC's in our area, we do see mostly T2 Frigate gangs. --
Wannabehero Caldari Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:44:00 - [15] Soooo, nerf non-cov-ops cloaks then? Is this what you want to happen again? People cloak to avoid and dictate engagements. As Abrazzar mentioned above, nano's used to do this more efficiently, now it is the true guerrilla ships' time to shine. As for cloaked gate-camps, nothing stops this from happening now. Local tells you who and how many are in system, but not where. Cloak-camps still happened, but required Arazu or suicide SB pilots to be truly effective. With QR and the resurgence of the Arazu and Lach, these may occur more often. I do agree, it sucks when everyone cloaks. No one knows jack-all about anyone else except how many there are, so no one wants to engage. The problem is that with local, baiting does not work. You can't try to bait a cloaked recon-SB gang onto that hapless decoy ratting BS, then hit them with your own gang. It doesn't work. They know you are all there, and they know you will come if they show themselves. So they wait, and nothing happens. I stand by my original statement. Without local, the intel isn't there to scare people away from engaging. It would be far easier to try to draw out a cloaked roaming gang, at the expense of buffing the stealth nature of those ships. I do believe that an additional type of probe should be put in the game if local was removed. It should not give details on the type or location of cloaked ships, only their presence and a very rough strength of the stealth signal. In any case, that is only my point of view. Many do not share it, and that is fine. This is a discussion after all, right? -- Don't harsh my mellow
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.11.18 21:52:00 - [16] Originally by: El Torrent Interesting. While I expected cloaking, and sniping HAC's in our area, we do see mostly T2 Frigate gangs. That's probably because medium guns can't hit a webbed AF orbiting at 1km. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Maverick 52 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.11.18 22:44:00 - [17] This really doesn't have much to do with the OP, however... The fix for AFK cloakers. That nice shiny system scanning array we have now? Allow that probe out cloakers. It will require you have Sov2 in the system. Make the cloak lower the chances of being probed, so it's a bit harder to probe them, however possible if you're determined. It also leaves the ability to scan cloakers up to your corp/alliance. If you don't anchor one, you can't do it.
Tozmeister Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.11.18 23:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Perry This anti-cloak pulse emitter could be released. A giant Smartbomb which decloaks everything within a set radius or gridwide, fitable by special ships or with high fitting costs. Not I-Win, but good enough to annoy gate hugging spys ^^ This was an idea i posted over a year ago in devolopment forums and i don't think i was the first either. If battleclinic's item database is to be believed, Then we will be seeing them soon.. +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis	Posted - 2008.11.19 00:17:00 - [19] Originally by: ArmyOfMe only if there is a way to spot cloaked ships, and ccp implement a way to actually uncloak ships in the system Why even bother cloaking you can still be found?
Vietone Gallente Mercury Industries	Posted - 2008.11.19 01:32:00 - [20] I'm all for having a decloaking mechanism in the game but it has to be a lot of work or else it would render cloak useless. For example, every ship will have a cloaking strength. Since theres only one cloak for all ships, the cloak strength should be how dense a cloak can be. Therefore, smaller ships have a stronger more dense cloak field while bigger ships have a weaker cloak field because its the same module that needs to cloak a bigger area. I will go with something I see from scifi shows and crap and call it a Tachyon pulse. It will work kind of like a smartbomb and will radiate from the ship outwards and will begin with high strength and the further out it goes, the weaker it gets. Its range will depend on the pilots skills and ships bonuses but it should begin with 100km max range and skills should factor in and a recon ship should be able to radiate the pulse out to 250km. The way it should be calculated is the same way ECM works, Pulse strength / Cloak strength. This way, there will always be a chance for a ship to be detected no matter how high. Ships that are close have a very high chance of being detected no matter how strong their cloak field is. The ship will appear as a cloaked ship on overview, you wont know who they are or what ship they are flying. You would be able to lock the ship but since it have an active cloak, its lockable signature would be smaller than normal, 65% of normal. This will make it harder for bigger ships to lock on in a reasonable time before the person has chance to get away. Once locked, it will decloak like normal and then other ships can lock onto it normally. However, ships that are cloaked from the stargate will have infinite cloaking strength because their cloak is generated from the stargate and should have a cloaking strength thats impossible to detect in order to not break the reason why stargates cloak ships to begin with. that way, no chance of a person who jumps into a system and his client doesnt connect back to the game only to find that his ship has been detected, decloaked and already being attacked.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2008.11.19 02:56:00 - [21] I didn't bother reading the last 7 posts. But removing local is good idea. There should be a counter, cause then it'd be impossible to tell if there was anybody in system or not, and that would be lame, but make names not show up unless they talk. Or should the counter be removed as well?
Ahimsaka	Posted - 2008.11.19 03:26:00 - [22] Edited by: Ahimsaka on 19/11/2008 03:28:25 Originally by: Wannabehero People cloak to avoid and dictate engagements. As Abrazzar mentioned above, nano's used to do this more efficiently, now it is the true guerrilla ships' time to shine. Hull: Stabber Class Role: Heavy Assault Ship The fastest cruiser invented to date, this vessel is ideal for hit-and-run ops where both speed and firepower are required. Its on-board power core may not be strong enough to handle some of the larger weapons out there, but when it comes to guerilla work, the Vagabond can't be beat. How I read into it, the heavy assault ship is intended to fit the role of guerilla warfare moreso than force recons. In fact, I'd argue that the vaga has filled its role as intended for a very long time (slowing them down a bit I understand), as well as some of the other HACs, to such a high degree that people wanted them nerfed. Guerilla tactics are efficient. Now we get cloakers instead of nanos for that. However... Force recons are intended to gather information and do light tactical work, ahead of a larger force (hence the cyno bonus). In my mind that is ccp's intended role for them, and it is why solopwn recons got nerfed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance Combat recons (ie no cov ops cloak) are supposed to be the ewar support of a guerilla style gang of hacs and other various mobile ships. I think there is a reason that the Muninn / Huginn's names go together. I think there is a place for black ops (ie cloaky gangs), but to replace normal gangs with these is unfortunate and will decrease the quality of gameplay. I think cloaks might become quite problematic. The gank potential and the survivability of a gang of recons/sb's, now that many other options are so dangerous, is hard to ignore. I am merely pointing out roles here. When ships start being used at a prolific rate, or they flight outside of their roles, for better or worse, we can probably expect to see the nerf bat flying around again. Only time will tell if this becomes a long term problem. EDIT: perhaps removing WHO is in local and just displaying how many might be a good comprimise Maybe not...
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.19 03:49:00 - [23] I assume you mean gang FOTM as solo is utterly craptastic now. Mainly due to the fact (imo) that it's much MUCH harder to fight anywhere outside of your weight class and still retain any measure of flexibility. Not to mention the larger the ship the less flexible you become now, the opposite of before. The single exception that immediately comes to mind that can now fight both above and below its class in a variety of circumstances is a Domi (in relation to other BS and even BC's). People with mad Domi/Drone/Neut skills are going to be the most versatile and annoying BS out there (LowSuck, Empire, some 0 applications). They always were imo, they will just flat be better now.
Graalum Interstellar eXodus Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.19 04:36:00 - [24] i haven't really seen any cloaks, gang makeup really hasn't changed all that much.

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