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Ree'kira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:33:00 -
[1]
Do jammers stack up, i.e. 2 x Multi spec jammers @ 6.2 each = 12.4 total jamming, or are they individual?
Thanks in advance
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:47:00 -
[2]
Each ECM module has it's own chance, so if the target has a strength of 10 and the jammers are 2.5 using 4 of them would NOT add up to 10. What you'd get is 4x 2.5/10th of a chance, while that seems to amount to the same, it doesn't.
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Ree'kira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:13:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tzar'rim
Each ECM module has it's own chance, so if the target has a strength of 10 and the jammers are 2.5 using 4 of them would NOT add up to 10. What you'd get is 4x 2.5/10th of a chance, while that seems to amount to the same, it doesn't.
I see, thank you.
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Akira Na'Reece
Caldari
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:21:00 -
[4]
But sensor dampners do stack. Am I right there?
Hmm I know my sec status looks bad, but I can assure you...
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Mickey Simon
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akira Na'Reece
But sensor dampners do stack. Am I right there?
Sensor dampners obviously work 100% of the time on a target and can be stacked, however there are stacking penalties (e.g. each additional one is less effective, much the same way as damage mods or other things have stacking penalties) as far as I'm aware.
Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . . |
Ree'kira
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Posted - 2008.11.24 10:54:00 -
[6]
Cheers folks.
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Riley Kendrik
Caldari
MagnaDyne Navy
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Posted - 2008.11.30 06:42:00 -
[7]
See this post to see how jammers work cumulatively and whether to fit multispec versus racial jammers (hint: racial).
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GeneralPanic
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.30 07:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: GeneralPanic on 30/11/2008 07:17:10
Main reason ECM do not stack is that jammed is jammed, while fx. sensors being dampened is an effect that can potentially be changed to "more damped".
Ie. one is hit/miss and a hit is 100% effect, while the other is 100% success, but a percentage effect. Anything in Eve that is a percentage effect (and jamming is the only 100% effect module I can think of) has some sort of stacking penalty.
Covert Ops with Signal Acq. 5 & all probes - Expl. - Elect. Warfare Frigs - Stealth Bomber |
Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.30 08:46:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mithfindel on 30/11/2008 08:53:25
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Each ECM module has it's own chance, so if the target has a strength of 10 and the jammers are 2.5 using 4 of them would NOT add up to 10. What you'd get is 4x 2.5/10th of a chance, while that seems to amount to the same, it doesn't.
Statistics just don't work that way ("seems to amount"). The reason is that the successive experiments (does it jam?) depend on the results of the previous ones. Imagine flipping four coins, trying to get at least one instance of heads. Assuming they aren't weighted, the first one has 50 % chance. If it wasn't heads (50 % chance of it being tails), the second one has 50 % chance, and 50 % of 50 % is 25 %. The chance that both were tails is thus 25 %. The third coin would have 50 % chance to be heads if this landed on tails, contributing 12.5 % to the total, and the fourth coin have a 6.25 % chance (of being the only coin) to land heads up. Thus, there still is a 6.25 % chance of all the coins landing on tails, which means there's 100 - 6.25 = 93.75 % chance of having at least one coin heads up. Do note that the chance of total failure is the same as the last coin being the only success is the same only because the chance of success is equal to the chance of failure.
Similarly, for a 25 % chance (for example the four jammers of strength 2.5 against a ship with sensor strength 10):
First jammer 25 % chance, 25 % individual contribution to total jam probability, sum 25 %.
Second jammer 25 % chance, (100 - 25)*25% = 18.75 % contribution, sum 43.75 %.
Third jammer 25 % chance, (100 - 43.75)*25% = 14.06 % contribution, sum 57.81 %.
Fourth jammer 25 % chance, (100 - 57.81)*25% = 10.55 % contribution, sum 68.36 %.
Edit: Added an example instead of the tl;dr part.
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Ree'kira
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Posted - 2008.12.05 13:39:00 -
[10]
So, it seems that it's not quite right to simply they say they do not stack, as there is more to it than that, but is it better, assuming a 1vs 1, to hit all 'x' number of jammers at once? Or stagger them? Or does this not make any difference?
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:37:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 05/12/2008 14:47:47
The Answer, like so much else when it comes to ECM, is that it Depends on the Situation.
1 vs 1 against a quick locking target you know you can melt within a Cycle of your jammers - Hitting them all at once can be more effective.
1 vs 1 against a slower locking tanked target (or against a Non-Primary in a Fleet Fight) - Staggering them can be more effective as it reduces the time between jam attempts thus making it more likely that you'll keep a ship out of the fight longer. It also means that you'll have less time to wait till your jammers are available should your target pop or get clear to get your jammers onto the next target.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2008.12.05 14:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ree'kira
Do jammers stack up, i.e. 2 x Multi spec jammers @ 6.2 each = 12.4 total jamming, or are they individual?
Thanks in advance
They used to, but not anymore; every jammer has a chance to jam the target.
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I smack just for myself.
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GateScout
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Posted - 2008.12.06 17:02:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mithfindel
The reason is that the successive experiments (does it jam?) depend on the results of the previous ones.
I have to assume this is a typo or I'm misunderstanding your point.
A chance a module has to jam a target does NOT depend on the results of previous attempts.
For the millionth time:
The chance to jam a target with a single jammer:
C = J/S
(J = jamming strength, S = ship's sensor strength)
The chance to jam a ship using multiple jammers (or the same strength):
C = (1-(1-J/S)^n)
where: n = the number of jammers.
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Frida Frogger
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Posted - 2008.12.08 12:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Each ECM module has it's own chance, so if the target has a strength of 10 and the jammers are 2.5 using 4 of them would NOT add up to 10. What you'd get is 4x 2.5/10th of a chance, while that seems to amount to the same, it doesn't.
Oh great. U are correct about the facts but u sat it up all wrong.
You need a probability equation. :)
First there are four modules with two possible outcomes: it works or it does not work.
4x2 = 8 total outcomes.
Each one of them has 2.5 stenght thus giving a 2.5/10 chance of success. so ur correct about that! shorten that to 0.25 or 25% chance. do not multiplyu 25% with 4 then u get a total 100% chance lol. and its wrong.
So each of the 4 modules give a 25% chance of success with 2 possible outcomes.
So add the one whole to the equation i dont remember exactly how it is on the paper but then u get something like this(1.25^4)/4 = 0.61 thats about 61% chance with 4 modules.
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