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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.25 11:20:00 -
[1]
so could we please get these inline with torps?.
anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/ ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Leeluvv
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.25 13:57:00 -
[2]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Have you looked at how damage is now calculated, taking into account the sig radius and the DR rating, and done some tests with figures to prove there is a problem or have you just looked at the exp vel value in the attributes and voiced an opinion with no evidence to back it up? Lee == Sig to follow |
MyOwnSling
Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:08:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Leeluvv
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Have you looked at how damage is now calculated, taking into account the sig radius and the DR rating, and done some tests with figures to prove there is a problem or have you just looked at the exp vel value in the attributes and voiced an opinion with no evidence to back it up? Lee
This. The damage formula has changed. Explosion velocity no longer matters nearly as much as explosion radius now. I suggest you take a look at it. ------------- Stop whining.
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
Originally by: MooKids I have an elite rating in HULL TANKING! That is like saying I can block punches with my face.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:24:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Leeluvv
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Have you looked at how damage is now calculated, taking into account the sig radius and the DR rating, and done some tests with figures to prove there is a problem or have you just looked at the exp vel value in the attributes and voiced an opinion with no evidence to back it up? Lee
Every test I've seen of the 2 caldari AFs shows the Hawk as inferior.
Same for the Vengeance compared to the Punisher.
And when was the last time you saw someone use a flycatcher for combat purposes ingame?
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:30:00 -
[5]
I declare war on stupidity |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: MyOwnSling
Originally by: Leeluvv
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Have you looked at how damage is now calculated, taking into account the sig radius and the DR rating, and done some tests with figures to prove there is a problem or have you just looked at the exp vel value in the attributes and voiced an opinion with no evidence to back it up? Lee
This. The damage formula has changed. Explosion velocity no longer matters nearly as much as explosion radius now. I suggest you take a look at it.
actually it have been tested quite a lot. and the new cal and these low expl makes anything that move get redused dmg and not like missiles base dmg is so much better then turrets so they can afford too lose more dmg... only missile that works now is torps
___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2008.11.25 16:21:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 25/11/2008 16:22:41
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
Originally by: MyOwnSling
Originally by: Leeluvv
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Have you looked at how damage is now calculated, taking into account the sig radius and the DR rating, and done some tests with figures to prove there is a problem or have you just looked at the exp vel value in the attributes and voiced an opinion with no evidence to back it up? Lee
This. The damage formula has changed. Explosion velocity no longer matters nearly as much as explosion radius now. I suggest you take a look at it.
actually it have been tested quite a lot. and the new cal and these low expl makes anything that move get redused dmg and not like missiles base dmg is so much better then turrets so they can afford too lose more dmg... only missile that works now is torps
stop lying lower explo radius makes the missile still deal full dmg. only case rockets would deal less dmg are inties but then normal standard missiles deal less dmg to them too. missiles works fine, I hit ships with my HAMs on my Sacrilege for 500 dmg per volley with rage heavy assaults.
and now contract me your stuff cause you have no use for it.
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.11.25 16:21:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Adaera on 25/11/2008 16:21:36 I've noticed a significant drop in rocket damage vs webbed frigates myself, and yesterday a friends hawk was hitting me for 6.9 damage per rocket. So yeah I think I can safely say they suck.
Edit: I was moving at around 350ish speed at the time, was webbed.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.11.25 18:54:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 25/11/2008 18:55:45
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
stop lying lower explo radius makes the missile still deal full dmg. only case rockets would deal less dmg are inties but then normal standard missiles deal less dmg to them too. missiles works fine, I hit ships with my HAMs on my Sacrilege for 500 dmg per volley with rage heavy assaults.
and now contract me your stuff cause you have no use for it.
Rockets don't work fine at all. You just don't use them and do not know the issue. Have you tried to shoot at some drones at high speed chasing your malediction? I'm guessing you haven't, because I used to do that just fine before they crapped all over rockets. The damage of rockets is beyond pathetic now against their intended targets. Rocket dps was broken BEFORE the patch, now it is just a joke and my blaster fitted vengeance will wtfbbq a rocket vengeance any day. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 19:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer my blaster fitted vengeance will wtfbbq a rocket vengeance any day.
Only if it can keep at optimal. But I don't really know enough about small-ship combat to comment too much on that. Having looked at the numbers, two problems with game mechanics and rockets appear - the ships that use rockets - frigates - are short on slots and so are less likely to be able to fit a web, and the ships that rockets should be used against - other frigates - are more likely to fit an AB than other ship classes. On the other hand, rocket "optimal" is pretty nice. I dunno, I just don't know how to interpret the numbers properly, how to compare them with turret optimals/tracking on competing ships.
HAMs are fine though. More than fine - full damage from Rage on a ABing webbed Hurricane.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.25 20:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer my blaster fitted vengeance will wtfbbq a rocket vengeance any day.
Personally I use AC, but yeah rockets suck so much
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.25 22:24:00 -
[12]
Malediction works better with turrets now, despite it's 25% rocket damage bonus. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.30 21:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer my blaster fitted vengeance will wtfbbq a rocket vengeance any day.
Only if it can keep at optimal. But I don't really know enough about small-ship combat to comment too much on that. Having looked at the numbers, two problems with game mechanics and rockets appear - the ships that use rockets - frigates - are short on slots and so are less likely to be able to fit a web, and the ships that rockets should be used against - other frigates - are more likely to fit an AB than other ship classes. On the other hand, rocket "optimal" is pretty nice. I dunno, I just don't know how to interpret the numbers properly, how to compare them with turret optimals/tracking on competing ships.
HAMs are fine though. More than fine - full damage from Rage on a ABing webbed Hurricane.
it's a bc, damn straight it should get max dmg when webbed and hit with a cruise sieze t2 ammo that takes away your cap as penalty :/ the fact that it will not do much to a cruiser is just wierd since it takes your cap, isn't that penalty enough for the extra dmg :( ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.11.30 23:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: CrestoftheStars so could we please get these inline with torps?.
anyway at least set rockets too work, seriusly the exp vel makes them useless against frig targets, which is there prime target, or should be :/
Just managed to test both systems today.
Rockets? Ugh... they are complete and utter crap. Whats better i was using them on Heretic - flight time/velocity skills at5, dictor skill at 4. Rocket velocity 4km/s. And here we start. Ceptor orbitting me at 500m (MWD orbit around 3,5km) was IMMUNE to rockets. They NEVER managed to catch up with ceptor. Of 60-80 missiles i fired only THREE managed to actually HIT target for something pathetic like 13damage (explo on raptor so EM would do 26ish).
For anti-interceptor platform (because dictors ARE anti ceptor platforms inheriting it from destroyer base) it was... pathetic? Yes i know web could have helped (old setup, didnt manage to fit web yet) but there is another problem called "heretic lacks CPU to fit decent plate+tackle mids setup". But this is wrong topic to discuss how crap are dictors.
From what i hear situation is pretty much similiar vs small drones.
HAMs seem to be a bit better than rockets vs their supposed targets (cruisers) but still - webbed AB target still managed to mitigate quite a bit of damage. Must say tho that i need to test HAMs a little longer before i say if they suck or no.
Back onto rockets: 1. increase their velocity (so they can actually catch non-webbed ceptors - 6km/s speed for maxskilled rockets on velocity bonused ship seems good) 2. REMOVE "missiles need to speed up to max speed" - let them launch with max velocity. ALSO change "rocket launch vector" on Heretic and vengeance. On both of those ships rockets are launcher IN FRONT of the ship - they fly around 2km and THEN they start following target which cuts their range drastically. As far as i see malediction with rockets doesnt have this issue, heretic and veng does. 3. increase their already pathetic DPS. The moment when using ACs WITHOUT damage mods is MUCH better than using ship damage bonused rockets says something about them. 4. help a bit with fitting CPU wise. They take around 14cpu (t2 launchers) which is quite a lot especially on khanid ships (heretic?)
Just fit them in line with torps vs large guns. Atm they create their own weapon class: "very small barely useable weapon system"
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Tozmeister
Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:56:00 -
[15]
3x Rocket Launchers on a vengeance (with +25% damage bonus) = 66 DPS
3x 200mm AC's on a vengeance (no bonus) = 67 DPS 3x Medium Pulse Lasers on a vengeance (no bonus) = 81 DPS 3x Light Neutron Blasters on a vengeance (no bonus) = 95 DPS
EFT numbers, all level 5 skills, T2 guns/launchers, t1 ammo, no damage mods.
And before anyone says "ah, but rockets have better range" i'll see that and raise you with rockets are absolutely useless against intys at any range which non of the guns suffer from.
in a real world set-up wolf will do 200 odd, retribution 220 and enyo and ishkur around the 240 DPS mark with faction ammo and 1 damage mod, compared to the vengeances 107.
This is not a failing of the vengeance either as other people have pointed out with the heretic and hawk, its the rockets themselves need a +25% increase to base damage.
+++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
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El Mauru
Amarr Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tozmeister 3x Rocket Launchers on a vengeance (with +25% damage bonus) = 66 DPS
3x 200mm AC's on a vengeance (no bonus) = 67 DPS
These are the only two figures worth anything. The rockets mean you use no cap. Cap which I really, really like on my vengeance (to run stuff like a rep, tracking disruptor and keep a point while neuted).
I'm not saying rockets do NOT suck. However, on the vengeance at least, they are balanced. -
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:50:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/12/2008 20:50:42
Originally by: El Mauru
Originally by: Tozmeister 3x Rocket Launchers on a vengeance (with +25% damage bonus) = 66 DPS
3x 200mm AC's on a vengeance (no bonus) = 67 DPS
These are the only two figures worth anything. The rockets mean you use no cap. Cap which I really, really like on my vengeance (to run stuff like a rep, tracking disruptor and keep a point while neuted).
I'm not saying rockets do NOT suck. However, on the vengeance at least, they are balanced.
You're wrong. Vengeance has such good cap + the nos slot that is there if you use turrets is more then enough to even run a repper + unbonused blasters capwise. Rockets simply SUCK. There is no angle that makes them better. THEY SUCK. END OF STORY. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
Tozmeister
Caldari Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.12.02 21:04:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tozmeister on 02/12/2008 21:05:44 No, they aren't. some people will choose to run a cap injector+buffer instead of tracking disruptor+rep, making cap using weapons a viable option even under neuting. Just because it's not your preferred set-up does not mean it's not 'worth anything'.
And when Weapon System A with +25% damage is still behind Weapon System B with nothing how can you call that balanced?
Edit:- responding to El Mauru
+++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 21:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: El Mauru
Originally by: Tozmeister 3x Rocket Launchers on a vengeance (with +25% damage bonus) = 66 DPS
3x 200mm AC's on a vengeance (no bonus) = 67 DPS
These are the only two figures worth anything. The rockets mean you use no cap. Cap which I really, really like on my vengeance (to run stuff like a rep, tracking disruptor and keep a point while neuted).
I'm not saying rockets do NOT suck. However, on the vengeance at least, they are balanced.
You can equip 200mm ACs instead. You will: - get more spare CPU - get same DPS - be able to kill ceptors (rockets dont hit ceptors at all) - be able to hit over 10km with barrage w/o gimping speed (javelins which will hit around 12km) - have exactly same setup as with rockets
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2008.12.02 22:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire ...
Not speaking from practice here, haven't had chance to use missiles yet on TQ, just a few maths to try and help with ideas on how new formula is affecting rockets.
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The issue with hitting at all is purely due to the launching mechanism and the flight times. If launching takes 1 second (i'm deriving that from personal experience of torps on a typhoon that appear to only go 17-18km when theoretical range is 20km and the velocity is about 3km/s hence 1 second lost), thats 33% of a rockets flight time gone and 5km of its range. If you add to the velocity your going to lose a portion of it to launching.
Javelins go 7km/s and have a quicker explosion velocity but there DRF is worse. I think the DRF should be improved from t1 missiles like precision missiles are.
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The 20m signature is a big help, as every ship is bigger than that. This helps the 85m/s explosion velocity a lot as even a mwd'ing inty will be 75m signature which is over 3 times bigger than the signature. This means you should do full damage upto 600m/s against a 75m sig target and about 50% damage at 1750m/s.
To get a 75m sig ship down to 600m/s to do full damage they would be going around 1500m/s, clearly this is a lot less than intercepters go. When you web a 75m sig target that goes 4250m/s you'll get to around the 50% damage mark which is more like a interceptor with a MWD. Clearly CCP want you to web what your shooting like other short range weapon systems if not also using a WS to ensure you get them below 600m/s.
Will be interesting to see if your tests with a web match the theory. -
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.12.02 22:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
The 20m signature is a big help, as every ship is bigger than that. This helps the 85m/s explosion velocity a lot as even a mwd'ing inty will be 75m signature which is over 3 times bigger than the signature. This means you should do full damage upto 600m/s against a 75m sig target and about 50% damage at 1750m/s.
To get a 75m sig ship down to 600m/s to do full damage they would be going around 1500m/s, clearly this is a lot less than intercepters go. When you web a 75m sig target that goes 4250m/s you'll get to around the 50% damage mark which is more like a interceptor with a MWD. Clearly CCP want you to web what your shooting like other short range weapon systems if not also using a WS to ensure you get them below 600m/s.
Will be interesting to see if your tests with a web match the theory.
Problem is: rockets dont even reach max web range. As i already stated above: they cant catch up with non-webbed ceptor. With web i suppose effective rocket range would be around 6-7km and ONLY if you are hitting approach to target. If target is to the side or even worse- behind you you will lose around 3-4km from total range - thus you must touch your target to actually hit it.
When it comes to damage calculations - they are pretty sad too. You say 50% damage at 1,7km/s (which is webbed ceptor speed)? So like... 40dps from vengeance? Wheras all other weapon systems can deal full (or faloff modified) damage? Uh - this IS bad.
Whats funnier the "anti ceptor Heretic" has only slight chances to kill ceptor before ceptor kills it. All i can come up with is rocket malediction dying to it and maybe stiletto. Other ones will either kill it or outrange it. So yea - even webbed ceptor wont die to "anti ceptor" platform - and this is just stupid.
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2008.12.02 23:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Problem is: rockets dont even reach max web range. As i already stated above: they cant catch up with non-webbed ceptor. With web i suppose effective rocket range would be around 6-7km and ONLY if you are hitting approach to target. If target is to the side or even worse- behind you you will lose around 3-4km from total range - thus you must touch your target to actually hit it.
When it comes to damage calculations - they are pretty sad too. You say 50% damage at 1,7km/s (which is webbed ceptor speed)? So like... 40dps from vengeance? Wheras all other weapon systems can deal full (or faloff modified) damage? Uh - this IS bad.
Whats funnier the "anti ceptor Heretic" has only slight chances to kill ceptor before ceptor kills it. All i can come up with is rocket malediction dying to it and maybe stiletto. Other ones will either kill it or outrange it. So yea - even webbed ceptor wont die to "anti ceptor" platform - and this is just stupid.
Yeah sounds like its mostly because of the launching process. If theoretical range is about 13km and your only getting 6-7km range thats about 5-6km lost or 1 second worth of full speed flight. Adding 1 second of flight time would be like adding 2km/s onto your velocity.
Just to mention because you say other weapon systems can do full or falloff modified damage that you have to remember they also have hit quality which reduces as chance to hit reduces. So a 174 DPS Sabre @ Opt+Falloff (1200+11250) that should do 50% falloff damage of 87 DPS will do 76 DPS which is a 11 DPS difference or a over reading by the raw damage of 14% so at higher raw damage figures would be a big difference and this is before including damage lost for tracking so probably more like 50-60 DPS which isn't much more raw damage than 50% of rocket damage.
I think more raw damage wouldn't be out of the question with the current rate that damage is reduced it would seem quite fair. If a target is dual webbed or webbed + WS you should expect full damage. But like you said, CCP need to look at Dictors generally. -
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.12.03 18:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/12/2008 18:14:19 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 03/12/2008 18:13:51
Originally by: Marn Prestoc
Is the problem raw damage? The damage reduction? The range? Combination of all 3?
The problem is that malediction can't damage warrior IIs chasing it at fast speed in orbit while tackling (wich is the whole point of this ship, primarily a tackler). Right now, my pulse crusader is a much more sustainable tackler. Why? It can obliterate warrior IIs at any speed.
Rockets already have way too low damage to begin with and the range is pathetic and irrelevant. Rockets/Std missiles need to be inline with the dps difference between cruise vs torps. They fixed torps for pvp, they need to fix rockets.
The range on paper is no problem. It is only a problem when machanics shorten that range by 30-40%. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise |
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