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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.01 02:03:00 -
[1]
I put together some typical BS fits: Ion II Blasterthron, Ion II Hyperion, 650 II AC Tempest with Sieges, Megapulse II Geddon, Megapulse II Abaddon, Torp Raven *with point* and TP. All have very comparable EHP and traditional fits/tackling capabilities. I built the setups to be as realistic and as practical as possible to demonstrate in-game performance as equitably as possible.
The target is a Harbinger with 188m/sec transversal- which is it's max transverse with max skills, NO PROPULSION MOD.
Color Key:
Red- Raven Cyan- Geddon (3x HS IIs) Pink- Abaddon (2x HS IIs) Yellow- Ion II Mega Blue- Ion II Hype Green- Tempest Red- Raven
First graph is here: Linkage
Second graph, exact same setups, zero transverse: Linkage
What can re deduce from this info?
Inside of about 2km all large turrets do almost zero DPS, and inside 1km, they definitely do *zero* DPS to a BC while it's orbiting at it's base speed (no AB, no MWD) while webbed with a single 60% web.
You'll note that as the range increases, the Mega does fairly well (in comparison) to all other examples (due to tracking bonus and using Ions, not Neutrons) and peaks at about 6km at just over 600 dps (lol?).
The Tempest jumps ahead of the Hype and stays there for the entire duration, outdamaging it at every range. The Hype is in last place for most of the entire graph.
The Raven performs admirably, offering a constant 483 DPS all the way out to 30+ KM (!!!), but everyone already knew how good the Raven is. No surprise there.
After about 9km or so, the DPS of the Geddon and Abaddon skyrocket to a max of 752 and 716 respectively at a range of about 16km and continue to do healthy damage all the way out to overheated 24km disruptor range. Oh, and by the way, all turret BS have short range ammo loaded. Lol?
The second graph demonstrates what can be expected of a BS when the target is completely immobilized. That is, when in a gang situation, has multiple webs on it (5+?), scramblers to kill any MWD and neuts to kill it's AB cap.
Here we see the Abaddon and Geddon crushing all comers, all teh way out to 20+ km (hmm, great for gangs much?) while the Tempest and Raven overtake the Mega and Hype at around 10-12km and never look back.
So what does this all mean? All of the other weapon types perform great at extended ranges, and while none of the turrets perform well at extremely short range (0-3km), that's the only range where blasters usually operate at, and they have absolutely horrible performance inside 3km, and horrible performance past that, when compared to other options.
Geddons/Abaddons are always a better option, regardless of range, and blasters are never a good option, regardless of range. Solo combat in a BS vs. any sort of smaller target is pretty much dead at this point if the target knows what it's doing. As long as you're not in a Raven. If you're a Raven pilot, game on.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.01 03:07:00 -
[2]
Quote: Why are the BS not taking corrective action? Why is the effect of a web not present on the numbers?[or 2 webs in the case of the Hyperion and Tempest]
This is why I included both graphs, one with max theoretical transverse, and one with zero. This allows for *intelligent* people to extrapolate any condition between the two extremes and estimate performance. It's easy. a 3rd grader could do it.
Quote:
Why does no ship use tech 2 long range ammo even at longer ranges?
The graphs are designed to compare like ammo with like. If you'd like I can make a 3rd graph comparing all T2 long range ammo to similar. The results would be even more skewed than they already are.
Quote: How much DPS are you discounting the Hyperion and Megathron just because you're a terrible troll? Specifically, why are you discounting the drone bay advantages that gallente have?
Drones are non existent when pirating on gates. Further more, this is a direct test of gun DPS, not what is theoretically available with drones. If that were the case, I could add TP drones or all sorts of other combos to further skew the results. I could never be as bad a troll as you.
Quote: How much are you discounting the ability to fit better tanking modules because of spare PG afforded by Ion blasters?
None at all. All ships have fairly close EHP and/or tanking ability, depending on what they are normally fit with on TQ. You're a horrifically obtuse @sshole.
Quote: Did you choose yellow just so that you could conveniently ignore the fact that the Megathron is clearly the best between 8 and 4km?
No, all colors were generated at random. Stop being a c#ckbite.
Quote: No graph exists showcasing the effect of a single harbinger with a 75m/s transversal against any ships[which could theoretically put more range on the ship via MWD and/or reduce transversal by 30 or so m/s assuming it was webbed simply by flying smart]
Again, this is why *two* graphs were provided. Both best and worst case. If you weren't such a friggin r3333tard you'd know this.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.12.01 03:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/12/2008 03:52:12 Looks like EFT isn't applying web effects at all on their DPS graphs. As for the Raven, I'm simply using what EFT provides. Not using any screwy setups, and a simple best named TP.
I think that it's hilarious that you think that somehow I'm horribly stacking the deck and contriving all sorts of weirdness to fabricate graphs to support the fact that blasters are poor performers at short range.
Link for NB's spreadsheet so that I can build a proper graph. At least then maybe you'll shut up.
Edit: I'm using the latest EFT- v2.9.1
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 07:09:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Most megas i know run with neutrons + 2 magstabs + 5 hvy drones (plates + rr). Geddons are slowly moving away from 3 sinks to 2 just to fit another plate (so it is actually DD resistant). Gang torp raven will move with 6x siege2 + 3-4x bcu (depends if they want hvy neut or no).
Blah blah blah...
I would *normally* run T2 Neutrons etc., but I'm finding it much more valuable *solo* to run Ions and fit a heavy neut for those annoying frigs. All the permutations for basic ship fits have already been explored. Not everyone fights in 0.0. Not everyone fights in 10+ RR BS gangs. I could give a f*ck about balance in gangs. After 4+ people apply guns/tackle to a target, it's dead. End of story. Unless it has lots of RR and logistics on it, but again, that's not the focus here.
The difference between three 60% webs and three 90% webs is negligible. The difference between one 60% and one 90% is huge. If a single target gets nabbed by a solo player, odds are *now* that he'll get away. If a single target gets nabbed by 3-4 players either pre- or post-QR, they're dead. The only thing that has been screwed up is solo and small (less than 4) man gang combat.
CCP didn't make it easier to do 'guerrilla warfare'. Small groups are still going to die vs. large blobs. All they did was make it damned near useless to go solo.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 09:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
CCP didn't make it easier to do 'guerrilla warfare'. Small groups are still going to die vs. large blobs. All they did was make it damned near useless to go solo.
If you wanted to make "solo setups" you should've shown it better in OP. And raven is almost useless solo. Any HAC worth its money will just kill you without bigger problems AB or no, doesnt matter if you run cruises or torps. I can agree it is good vs BS (tho i wouldnt use PWNAGE but painter drones instead).
But like i said: solo is dead and was dead for quite a while now. So ships will not be balanced for 1v1 which happens once in a blue moon but for gang warfare. Otherwise you might still say that AFs are overpowered.
I just tried to make the fits as even/practical as possible, with respect to EHP tank and effective DPS. I'm kinda annoyed that EFT isn't working correctly. It'll be interesting to see what the graphs do once it's fixed.
As for TP drones, I'm wondering what the Raven would do if equipped with a web and TP drones vs. a smaller target.
I'll run some numbers if you guys want to see maxed out RR BS fittings, but it'll still be the same: blasters on the bottom, everything else stacked similar to how it is above, with a similar spread. Blasters should be worth using in the 0-6km range, and they're not.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.01 19:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 01/12/2008 19:40:38 Nice SecHaul. What does the Temp's graph look like with RF EMP? EDIT: I read you fit launchers, torps I'm assuming? And Could you Add in an Ion II Hype with 1x magstab, and Ion II Megathron with x2 Magstabs?
I've stopped using the Ion Hype completely due to lack of a sensor booster now (5th mid being required for second web or 2 point scram) and horrible tracking issues, and have downgraded to Ion IIs on my Mega fits due to Neutrons lacking a heavy Neutralizer for defense against smaller ships.
I'm finding my plate/rep Tempest works well with 650 IIs and a couple of siege launchers. The ACs hit smaller stuff really well at range and the siege pack a backup punch against BS. Having variable damage types from the launchers also helps out quite a bit.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 06:05:00 -
[7]
Quote: With webs, lasers are so close to blasters and projectiles, and then totally cream them after 17 KM, it makes you wonder if the additional benefit you a get at close range warrants what you lose at 'medium' to long-range
This is why I fit webs to my Geddon and Abaddon. The last graph looks most similar to what I've been experiencing while playing on TQ.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 06:09:00 -
[8]
SecHaul- I'd like to see the last graph, but with all short range faction ammo loaded. What most of my group use are ships fitted with webs, with short range ammo. So far you've done short range ammo, no webs, and long range ammo with webs. Last combination of short range ammo and webs would be nice to see.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.03 21:23:00 -
[9]
188m/sec is for a max skilled Harb with *no* propulsion mod going. That's it's max cruise speed. Sig radius is therefore what it is stock, no MWD factored in.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka very funny ... the more the longer thread grows ... good that Bellum does not care about this much anymore ...
I still care. I've just given up trying to change anything.
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
|
|
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.12.09 11:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Hugh Ruka very funny ... the more the longer thread grows ... good that Bellum does not care about this much anymore ...
That is cos the longer the thread goes on the closer he is to finishing training amarr (like the rest of us).
5d till Amarr BS4, 19d till Large Pulse Spec 1 and counting...
Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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