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[Proposal] Remove ALL Ship-Insurance

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GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:36:00 - [1] no need for lengthy explanation.
Ticondrius Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:39:00 - [2] Indeed. I stopped flying with insurance years ago because it's just a waste of time for me anyway. Lost a BS? Whooptiedoo...I can replace it in 2-3 days. Also, since dreads and carriers are insurable, elimination of insurance would make them not quite so commonplace anymore, making them a bit more carefully used. Also, it would have the side benefit of making cap ships no longer the end-all fleet ship...not everyone wants to swallow a 2-3 bil loss 1-2 times a week. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles V.I.R.A.L.	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:41:00 - [3] No need for a lengthy explanation. No.
GuntiNDDS	Posted - 2008.12.03 11:42:00 - [4] :)
Orb Vex	Posted - 2008.12.03 12:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Ticondrius Lost a BS? Whooptiedoo...I can replace it in 2-3 days. And what about newbies? Griefer destroys their brand new bigger ship and they have nothing but long time of saving for new. No thanks.
Reynolds Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2008.12.03 12:58:00 - [6] I agree for at least Battleships and up
Pax Ratlin Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:09:00 - [7] I agree to this in principle but disagree in application. Personally i would go for Full payout for ships lost in high sec, 50% payout in Empire controlled low sec, 0% payout in 0.0 On top of that 0% payouts to people who's sec status drops below -5, and anyone who's status is -5 or worse cannot insure their ships. Lastly you must be in Empire controlled space when you insure your ship. Basically the insurance companies would only work in the (relative) safety of empire controlled space and would not pay out to known/convicted criminals.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:30:00 - [8] Originally by: GuntiNDDS no need for lengthy explanation. I don't agree with outright removal of insurance, but I do believe that your insurance 'track record' should affect your premiums and payouts. Actually, I think there is a need for a lengthy explanation. I'm currently too tired to go into one, but I'd outline these points as reasons to discuss why I'd support a move to change insurance. 1- Insurance can create an artificial safety net for ship prices if minerals are cheap. i.e. if prices fall to far it can be profitable to buy and insure ships then get them destroyed 2- Insurance keeps isk in the system - it cushions people towards maintaining relatively similar frontline capability as they can continue to afford ships of the same class. This means defeating a rich enemy convincingly is very difficult, and it lowers the bar to flying huge ships 3- People complain about capitals online / blobs of massive ships. This is one good way of deracinating it. 4- There are no consequences for having a terrible insurance record...wtf?
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:54:00 - [9] Removing insurance will hurt the economy really badly. It's like removing consumption IRL, which we see with the economic crisis: It will HURT.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.12.03 13:59:00 - [10] Originally by: LaVista Vista Removing insurance will hurt the economy really badly. It's like removing consumption IRL, which we see with the economic crisis: It will HURT. You have a point there (though this is rooted in current economic theories). What do you think about insurance track records affecting premiums and payouts?
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.12.03 14:18:00 - [11] YES. Guide to forum posting
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:26:00 - [12] Originally by: LaVista Vista Removing insurance will hurt the economy really badly. It's like removing consumption IRL, which we see with the economic crisis: It will HURT. Yes in the very short turn, but quickly the players would fill the void left and the insurance market would become a completely player driven economy, with different corps offering different policies to different sections of the market place .... just as you helped set up a Eve based bank to fill in that void LaVista ... don't you think?
Laechyd Eldgorn Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:53:00 - [13] insurance is bad mkay. or at least make it like in real life. ships which blow up a lot cost tons (and tons) of isk to insure.
Ignition SemperFi Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.03 15:55:00 - [14] no supported
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.03 16:58:00 - [15] I like the track record idea and i still think Global Criminal Countdown (or at least CONCORD) related deaths should default your insurence to basic. Complete removal is a no-no --- Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:12:00 - [16] NO... Inusrance needs to stay put.... except for the following: 1: Criminals should not be allowed to insure there ships... obviously they intend to do criminalistic things with them... why should they have the luxury... the companies that insure there ships should either hike the rates really bad.... or give them a smaller pay out for the sake of "profits" if you wana get technical. At a minimum every time they invoke a "COCORDOKEN" they should have NOTHING given back to them... including a hefty fine or something. 2: For the newbies... insurance is very critical.... however if you wana get picky... you can graduate them to lower rates as they acquire more wealth and or larger assets so to speak. 3: Tech 2 ships are worthless to insure.... I'm suspecting Tech 3 will be nigh impossible... I never understood this... might as well make insurance impossible there. 0.0 is a harsh economy to deal with... from what I can see... alot of what they get is what you can provide with what you got.... that or cargo hauls from empire... I wasn't aware that captial ships could be insured due to there excessive expensive nature.. I could only dream what hte insurance rates would be for those big suckers... I don't think killing insurance is a good idea. and with all due respect... stop enforcing your arguments with real life economics... neither are related and you damn will know it. Your talking about fake currency for crying out loud..... virtual in game ISKIES do not translate to real world currency. If they do... your breaking the rules (coughmacrominerscoughiskfarmerscough) Its a "luxury".... one that you can opt out of. It won't be the end of the bloody world of EVE if insurance is taken away. And as much as I'd hate to see my Battleship lose insurance.... as Its very expensive to replace... I dare say certain individuals will suddenly start to appreciate the value of there ships without insurance. It won't kill the economy in EVE Online.... hell it might even actually help as most people dump mountains of ISK on ships because of insurance. So I guess in that light I really can't say yes.. or no. both are good..... and bad. I'll sit on the fence for this one.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:35:00 - [17] I support adjustments to the insurance system, as there is something imbalanced when losing a fully t2 fitted mega will only cost me 25-30 mil isk after insurance is paid out. Moving insurance payout amounts from fixed amounts based on outdated base prices to a floating system that is calculated based on a percentage of the market average could be a start (if programing such a system is possible).
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Pax Ratlin Yes in the very short turn, but quickly the players would fill the void left and the insurance market would become a completely player driven economy, with different corps offering different policies to different sections of the market place .... just as you helped set up a Eve based bank to fill in that void LaVista ... don't you think? A player-run insurance system is, while interesting, fairly unlike to make up for it. A business does, by definition, aim to make profit. You can't make profit in an insurance firm in EVE. The way insurance firms works IRL, you basically make a bet with them that you WILL have something bad to you actually happen, while they bet that there won't. In EVE, it's very simple: Something bad will happen to you.
FunzzeR Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Drake Draconis and with all due respect... stop enforcing your arguments with real life economics... neither are related and you damn will know it. Your talking about fake currency for crying out loud..... virtual in game ISKIES do not translate to real world currency. If they do... your breaking the rules (coughmacrominerscoughiskfarmerscough) Why would fake currency make economics any less relvant to eve? Plenty of macro and micro economic concepts can be observed here--particularly Game Theory.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.03 17:48:00 - [20] Oh I don't deny that... but using it as an excuse and slapping the "End of the world" on it is foolish at best. Unless you have a Macro-economics/Micro-economics background and studied it for years... This is about insurance and its function... not about the economy of EVE. Insurance rates are controlled by CCP... not players AFAIK. So for you to apply economics to something you cant control.. is a waste of our time.
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.03 18:00:00 - [21] Just to say No with no need for a lengthy explanation. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.12.03 18:24:00 - [22] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pax Ratlin Yes in the very short turn, but quickly the players would fill the void left and the insurance market would become a completely player driven economy, with different corps offering different policies to different sections of the market place .... just as you helped set up a Eve based bank to fill in that void LaVista ... don't you think? A player-run insurance system is, while interesting, fairly unlike to make up for it. A business does, by definition, aim to make profit. You can't make profit in an insurance firm in EVE. The way insurance firms works IRL, you basically make a bet with them that you WILL have something bad to you actually happen, while they bet that there won't. In EVE, it's very simple: Something bad will happen to you. In case you didn't notice bad things happen to everyone no matter if you live in EvE or the real world. Your illustration of how insurance works is very very basic and thus quite flawed. Insurance companies don't just insure anyone, they make an assessment of the risk you pose and offer you a policy they feel is the least gamble they can get away with. So bad things will happen to you more frequently in EvE, the insurance companies premiums would reflect that surely? Running an insurance firm in EvE would be just as risky as say ... investing in a bank on EvE, and it couldn't make a profit???? If anyone is willing to lend me a couple of billion isk then i'm more than happy to test out thet statement. But yes something must be done for noobs so i would suggest leaving the present insurance system in place for T1 frigs and only T1 frigs.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:27:00 - [23] T1 Frigs aren't going to be enough. Killing insurance for Tech 1 ships will harm every single noob out there. If your going to kill insurance... kill it all. Or enforce penalties for CONCORD infractions.
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Drake Draconis T1 Frigs aren't going to be enough. Killing insurance for Tech 1 ships will harm every single noob out there. If your going to kill insurance... kill it all. Or enforce penalties for CONCORD infractions. Dunno what your definition of a noob is but noobs wandering round in T1 Battleships, to my mind once they have earned and learned your way out of the frigates they are probably not as big a noob as you think they are. If you find a noob in a BS it's becaused they have rushed to BS without stopping along the way for any other skills, at which point losing that BS will probably be the last reason you quit EvE, the first being you couldn't find the "I win!!!" Button.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:50:00 - [25] Originally by: LaVista Vista Removing insurance will hurt the economy really badly. It's like removing consumption IRL, which we see with the economic crisis: It will HURT. If only because it will throw the mineral prices into chaos, this is absolutely correct. There are underlying issues with mineral supply and artificial price caps/pressures that must be addressed before insurance is removed. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:51:00 - [26] The thing is... Remove ship insurance... then people eventually dont replace the t1 ships they lost because they dont have the isk. Meaning less ships being bought off the market. Meaning ships start to flood the market. Which wont hurt ship builders... they just then shutdown ship production... so they are hurt by making far less isk; but the real people who get hurt are miners. Minerals are no longer bought and those really flood the market. Eventually ships become ridiculously cheap... WTB Megathron 50 isk. Nah what is needed is a decrease in capital insurance values. So perhaps a max payout of 500mil for dreads and 300mil for carriers. That's at max insurance. Or whatever value. Big capital fights then really really hurt. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Fahtim Meidires GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 19:52:00 - [27] Edited by: Fahtim Meidires on 03/12/2008 19:52:02 Economist crew checking in. Anything that removing insurance does to the economy will only be temporary. Definitely supporting anything that phases out NPC involvement in Eve's markets, making it more and more PLAYER RUN. edit: forgot to hit support
Pax Ratlin Gallente Woodland Larch	Posted - 2008.12.03 20:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Jason Edwards The thing is... Remove ship insurance... then people eventually dont replace the t1 ships they lost because they dont have the isk. Meaning less ships being bought off the market. Meaning ships start to flood the market. Which wont hurt ship builders... they just then shutdown ship production... so they are hurt by making far less isk; but the real people who get hurt are miners. Minerals are no longer bought and those really flood the market. Eventually ships become ridiculously cheap... WTB Megathron 50 isk. Nah what is needed is a decrease in capital insurance values. So perhaps a max payout of 500mil for dreads and 300mil for carriers. That's at max insurance. Or whatever value. Big capital fights then really really hurt. No, no on pretty much all counts. I know i'm a carebear and all that but even i know that you "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" And no, even if the t1 market slows down by any significant amount, over the medium/long term it won't force BS prices down to 50 isk it will instead force industrialist to make something else or be something other than an industrialist, as you say, which will have a knock on effect on the mining industry, driving miners out of buisness, as you say. Which in turn will drive up mineral prices, which will bring miners back into buisness which will force up the prices of ship, which will in turn bring more industrialists back into making t1 ships. And while my reading of the situation is just as simplistic as yours, the questions which is the more realistic? The End of the World or that the markets will steady out and adapt over time?
Fahtim Meidires Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.12.03 21:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Pax Ratlin Originally by: Jason Edwards The thing is... Remove ship insurance... then people eventually dont replace the t1 ships they lost because they dont have the isk. Meaning less ships being bought off the market. Meaning ships start to flood the market. Which wont hurt ship builders... they just then shutdown ship production... so they are hurt by making far less isk; but the real people who get hurt are miners. Minerals are no longer bought and those really flood the market. Eventually ships become ridiculously cheap... WTB Megathron 50 isk. Nah what is needed is a decrease in capital insurance values. So perhaps a max payout of 500mil for dreads and 300mil for carriers. That's at max insurance. Or whatever value. Big capital fights then really really hurt. No, no on pretty much all counts. I know i'm a carebear and all that but even i know that you "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" And no, even if the t1 market slows down by any significant amount, over the medium/long term it won't force BS prices down to 50 isk it will instead force industrialist to make something else or be something other than an industrialist, as you say, which will have a knock on effect on the mining industry, driving miners out of buisness, as you say. Which in turn will drive up mineral prices, which will bring miners back into buisness which will force up the prices of ship, which will in turn bring more industrialists back into making t1 ships. And while my reading of the situation is just as simplistic as yours, the questions which is the more realistic? The End of the World or that the markets will steady out and adapt over time? This. Removing insurance is a step towards a purer player controlled market, one of the goals of EVE.
WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.12.26 01:18:00 - [30] Whether from NPC or player run corps, I wish to continue being able to purchase insurance for my ships. Discussion of limiting NPC granted insurance on upper level ships may be worthy of consideration.

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