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Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
14
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Posted - 2012.04.10 00:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious about the costs and difficulties associated with policing a lowsec system for a prolonged period of time (weeks)
Basically, the security would need to remove bad people, protect good people (determined beforehand) and allow through-travelers on their way. Stations and customs offices would in particular need to be guarded.
What would that cost on a daily basis? |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 00:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Aurel Svenson wrote:I'm curious about the costs and difficulties associated with policing a lowsec system for a prolonged period of time (weeks)
Basically, the security would need to remove bad people, protect good people (determined beforehand) and allow through-travelers on their way. Stations and customs offices would in particular need to be guarded.
What would that cost on a daily basis?
It wouldn't be so much a daily cost as much as a constant / active force to implement such measures. Depending on how voracious and aggressive the neighborhood you might never have to buy beyond the initial fleet and just maintain intimidation. But if you experience large roams on a daily basis expect massive replacements on the basis of your own size in measurement. Truthfully, I would use every underhanded tactic in regards to. If you're worried about cost, act cheeply, if you want to keep the bad guy away deny them real fights. Get some EWAR some Logistics, be the most obnoxious thing around. The cost is relative to your fleet doctrine and your member count.
-á |
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 00:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Roams would be the worry, wouldn't they... Probably best to just get everyone out if something big happens, though I guess starbases aren't that mobile.
I'm wondering what merc corps have to say about it/whether I might be able to get some actual offers, too. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
533
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 01:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
*snerk*
... "policing low-sec"... hee hee hee hee...
Oh wait... you're serious??
You can never fully lock down a low-sec system due to the nature of low-sec mechanics. You cannot erect bubbles so cloaking ships are near impossible to catch... as are most frigates.
You will also need to have access to Heavy Interdictors to catch anything big that might be warp core stabbed... along with a near constant presence of "bloodthirsty" guys itching for a fight.
Then you have to take security status into account as many of your enemies (both present and potential) WILL send in neutrals to scout things out and you WILL have to go GCC and take security hits to clear them out.
etc.
etc.
The only REAL way you can ensure the safety of yourself, your infrastructure, and friendlies in low-sec is through:
- show of force (show your willing to fight),
- trickery (set up traps to establish that even the most defenseless ship flying in your area might be bait),
- reputation (you are good at doing the first two things),
- making sure that everyone knows how to "take care of themselves" (for when they are alone and without support).
And even still, none of this will ensure anything. You might even attract attention and get pirate corps coming at you for giggles (think roving packs of hyenas).
Change isn't bad... but it isn't always good. Somtimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Aurel Svenson
Cyclone Solutions
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 01:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Very interesting points. So general policing is probably not possible. I would have to focus on locking down assets of value to me.
(When was it changed that bubbles couldn't be used in empire? I seem to recall them from 2008 or so being used in lowsec) |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity
Exhale.
173
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 02:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maybe if you perma hire PL to sit their entire supercap fleet in the 1 LS system forever and RnK to support them with their pirate BS subcaps fleet, also forever, you could do it....
Short of that, move along. |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 03:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Basically, its the same as securing NPC 0.0, except no bubbles, and the rewards for whoever your protecting are smaller. Realistically, your best bet is to keep a low profile in an out of the way pocket, and enforce safety discipline on whoever your protecting so that they don't become an attractive gank target. Sure, you could probably fight off a small gang without needing too many people on your side, but even if you win, its just going to attract attention to your system, and attention is the last thing you want.
If you do attract attention, you will likely attract larger gangs, caps, and various types of hot drops. The more you escalate your willingness to fight, the bigger the fish you will attract, until you start getting fleets of null sec alliance supers dropped on you.
The best way to fight gankers is to not give them killmails, they will get bored and find better pickings elsewhere. |
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 04:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Though I tend to agree with the others in the general outcome;
You can achieve a level of security in a low sec system with a constant presence. That said, if you are too good at what you do, you will attract folk looking to scrap so it becomes a bit of a lure instead of a deterant.
That said, imposing your will on a system or two will 'secure' it to the degree it is securable. Many folk in lowsec are not looking to get molested without consent. The previous advice to just develop a reputation for always packing ewar, logi etc will give you some level of security.
Until your reputation grows to the point where it doesn't anymore.
TL;DR
Don't think it can't be done, just remember nothing is forever. |
Dead Loss
Sweet Capsuleer Tears
31
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 06:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rancer.
Go there and ask them. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 07:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aurel Svenson wrote:I'm wondering what merc corps have to say about it/whether I might be able to get some actual offers, too. Merc corps living low sec... Have a name... They are called... "pirates" ! |
Dirk Smacker
Inglorious-Basterds
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
You are better off being a bad person and kicking out the good people from your low sec system.
I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 16:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is actually a very good topic since CCP seems to be moving more acivities to low sec.
How do you secure carebears in lowsec. I think securing the system is easily done by what others have said. Devolop the presence. I do belive though if you hire a bunch of pirates and let them go gcc on anything that comes through the gates you will have most of the problems taken away. Ever hear of sensor boosters.
The problem (as others have said) is keeping a-round the clock security.
Your best bet is to devolop a security force around the activity / particular asset. Then set "guards" on gates to let people know there are GCC instalocking ships that will just shoot you because.
Even frigs and cloakies dont like those.
Lt. Colonel
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Dark Pangolin
Snuff Box
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:This is actually a very good topic since CCP seems to be moving more acivities to low sec.
How do you secure carebears in lowsec. I think securing the system is easily done by what others have said. Devolop the presence. I do belive though if you hire a bunch of pirates and let them go gcc on anything that comes through the gates you will have most of the problems taken away. Ever hear of sensor boosters.
The problem (as others have said) is keeping a-round the clock security.
Your best bet is to devolop a security force around the activity / particular asset. Then set "guards" on gates to let people know there are GCC instalocking ships that will just shoot you because.
Even frigs and cloakies dont like those.
The only downside with this is you better make sure you are the biggest baddest guys in town. If well organised people who are meaner than you hear there is always some guys camping this system at this time...what you get is a lot of attention, there is always someone bigger than you :)
your options are
1) Stay unobtrusive and relatively unknown...unless you step on toes most people wont bother your assets in lo-sec honestly...if you're worried about POSs, make them a ***** to kill, hardeners, ****-star etc.
2) Become bad ass, build a PVP corp to pwn all corps!...then when you control you systems try to figure out why you spent 2 years taking over these systems just to go back to indy work :)
With NPC stations though you can never really control a system...not really. |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:This is actually a very good topic since CCP seems to be moving more acivities to low sec.
How do you secure carebears in lowsec. I think securing the system is easily done by what others have said. Devolop the presence. I do belive though if you hire a bunch of pirates and let them go gcc on anything that comes through the gates you will have most of the problems taken away. Ever hear of sensor boosters.
The problem (as others have said) is keeping a-round the clock security.
Your best bet is to devolop a security force around the activity / particular asset. Then set "guards" on gates to let people know there are GCC instalocking ships that will just shoot you because.
Even frigs and cloakies dont like those.
What do you do when a loan cloaky Arazu or Rapier runs your gate camp and then starts sitting in your system?
Pick one:
[ ] Shut down operations till they leave
[ ] Let the recon pick off undefended carebears
[ ] Try to defend the carebears in space, then wonder why a recon ship just lit a cyno on grid with your defense fleet... |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aurel Svenson wrote:I'm curious about the costs and difficulties associated with policing a lowsec system for a prolonged period of time (weeks)
Basically, the security would need to remove bad people, protect good people (determined beforehand) and allow through-travelers on their way. Stations and customs offices would in particular need to be guarded.
What would that cost on a daily basis?
It really cannot be done if your goal is to secure the system for carebear activities. Sure, you can control the system for a bit but then you'll just attract attention. Once that happens, folks that are bigger/better than you will come along looking for a fight. At that point, you have 2 choices: Fight them or blue ball them. If you fight them, they will keep coming back and you will have failed your goal. If you blue ball them, then you don't control the system so you have failed your goal.
We've done this in Gallente militia and have "secured" our systems, but our goal is not to secure assets in space or protect carebears. We blob the snot out of 75% of people that drop by looking for a fight. Those folks tend to not poke their head into our little hornets nest. The other 25% that is bigger/better than us, we just dock up or move elsewhere. We are not rude and we have no assets in space. They don't hate us enough to try and grief us. We don't have any assets they can attack to force a fight. After a while, they learn that we cannot/won't fight them, so they stop coming around. The result is a secured system. The people that are smaller than us don't come looking for fights. The people that are bigger know they won't get a fight.
As soon as your goal becomes trying to achieve something in system, that is when the folks that are bigger/better than you have the oppertunity to try and force you into a fight by denying whatever it is you are trying to achieve (shoot your POS, camp stations, pick off stragglers still trying to run exploration sites/missions, etc).
TLDR: To achieve system control in lowsec you need to utterly crush or provide no kills to all opponents. This can only be done if you are willing to move away when somebody bigger/better inevitably comes along. |
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 17:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
MushroomMushroom wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:This is actually a very good topic since CCP seems to be moving more acivities to low sec.
How do you secure carebears in lowsec. I think securing the system is easily done by what others have said. Devolop the presence. I do belive though if you hire a bunch of pirates and let them go gcc on anything that comes through the gates you will have most of the problems taken away. Ever hear of sensor boosters.
The problem (as others have said) is keeping a-round the clock security.
Your best bet is to devolop a security force around the activity / particular asset. Then set "guards" on gates to let people know there are GCC instalocking ships that will just shoot you because.
Even frigs and cloakies dont like those. What do you do when a loan cloaky Arazu or Rapier runs your gate camp and then starts sitting in your system? Pick one: [ ] Shut down operations till they leave [ ] Let the recon pick off undefended carebears [ ] Try to defend the carebears in space, then wonder why a recon ship just lit a cyno on grid with your defense fleet...
Agreed, its not full proof but lets face it a corp wants to hot drop you a recon getting through is the least of your worries. The question still stands can low sec be secured in any fashion or up to a point? If the answer is no, then the fair assesment would be 0.0 would be safer?
Lt. Colonel
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Dark Pangolin
Snuff Box
64
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:MushroomMushroom wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:This is actually a very good topic since CCP seems to be moving more acivities to low sec.
How do you secure carebears in lowsec. I think securing the system is easily done by what others have said. Devolop the presence. I do belive though if you hire a bunch of pirates and let them go gcc on anything that comes through the gates you will have most of the problems taken away. Ever hear of sensor boosters.
The problem (as others have said) is keeping a-round the clock security.
Your best bet is to devolop a security force around the activity / particular asset. Then set "guards" on gates to let people know there are GCC instalocking ships that will just shoot you because.
Even frigs and cloakies dont like those. What do you do when a loan cloaky Arazu or Rapier runs your gate camp and then starts sitting in your system? Pick one: [ ] Shut down operations till they leave [ ] Let the recon pick off undefended carebears [ ] Try to defend the carebears in space, then wonder why a recon ship just lit a cyno on grid with your defense fleet... Agreed, its not full proof but lets face it a corp wants to hot drop you a recon getting through is the least of your worries. The question still stands can low sec be secured in any fashion or up to a point? If the answer is no, then the fair assesment would be 0.0 would be safer?
I really don't think so. You would need bubbles up on all gates entering your control area with people sitting there 23/7 ready to decloak and kill, with a reactionary force on standby to bridge in and pew pew any fleet too big for the gate campers to hold...its too much of a time commitment
It goes back to the standard EvE deterrent, don't violence us because then we will get mad and lay down more violence on you than you can lay on us...
What Andre said above is pretty much dead on...but then you can't rule a space empire :)
|
BolsterBomb
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dark Pangolin wrote:BolsterBomb wrote:[quote=MushroomMushroom][quote=BolsterBomb]This is actually a very good
Agreed, its not full proof but lets face it a corp wants to hot drop you a recon getting through is the least of your worries. The question still stands can low sec be secured in any fashion or up to a point? If the answer is no, then the fair assesment would be 0.0 would be safer? I really don't think so. You would need bubbles up on all gates entering your control area with people sitting there 23/7 ready to decloak and kill, with a reactionary force on standby to bridge in and pew pew any fleet too big for the gate campers to hold...its too much of a time commitment It goes back to the standard EvE deterrent, don't violence us because then we will get mad and lay down more violence on you than you can lay on us... What Andre said above is pretty much dead on...but then you can't rule a space empire :)
I dunno about that. Buble the gates down, if you have a EU and US time force, your good to go. You dont need a standing fleet sitting on the gate just one keeping eyes with a standing fleet in the vicinity.
Ive seen stations locked down with bubles to the point of logging off was the only activity you could do
Lt. Colonel
of The Caldari State
Traitor and Ex Luminaire General
of The Gallente Federation |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 18:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
In practical terms .. nope ... you can not set up a safe lowsec system. Impossible (reminder: In practical terms)
Any of the "setting up a defence force tralala" options will lead to some bored alliance taking the challenge of blowing you out of water via massive attack that you simply have no way of stopping.
Unless you can handle the payments for the "PL & RnK scenario" then forget about it and continue daydreaming. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
250
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 19:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Policing a low-sec system is relatively easy on the short term; just set up a remotely competent fleet and it requires extreme bad luck (or a terrible initial choice of a system) for someone to show up you cannot push around.
In the long term, the problem is maintaining presence. Once you have a relatively safe area established, keeping up the policing becomes, to put it mildly, extremely boring. You have to have someone around 24/7, but most of the time they do not get to do any combat, because word is around that you guys will just blow people up if they show up without being nice with you. Even if you paid them, most people would just wander off in a couple of weeks. Combat people tend to want to blow stuff up, not to sit waiting at a safe system.
Another problem is that once word gets around you are doing this, people will show up to bust your safety just because they can, and they know they can get a fight. And since there is always a bigger fish, eventually someone will show up you cannot make go away.
An easier way than to police things continuously, if you want to make low-sec relatively safe for operations, is to establish a local "defense pact" type of thing. Set standings aggressively, trying to put every neutral who frequents to the area either to a NAP or to red to warn your people. Teach people to fly smart and to get the hell out of belts and missions if hostiles or a bunch of unknown neutrals shows up. Do not promise anyone protection, but tell them to fly smart and protect themselves. Gather a group of people interested in pirate hunting and have them move around the area looking for targets if none show up at your home base - not because this is the best way to police anything, but because it gives them practice and keeps them interested.
That won't make low-sec into high-sec, but it will make it livable in a sustainable way. |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
191
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 21:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Safe is a relative term in EVE. You are never truly secure or free from danger. No matter how hard you try to keep a system free of people you don't want, someone with more money and more manpower will show up and make things difficult.
The basic idea is to blow people up and do it enough to interfere with their daily routine. Camping the gates and killing the local pirates is good, but your not doing as much damage as you may think. The goal is to make it so that the only option a person has is to leave the system. Camping up the stations will work well. Even if you are sitting outside for 3 hours and not a single one of them decides to try and make a run for it you are slowing them down. There isn't much to do in one station and boredom will get the best of them.
Basically, it all comes down to a matter of who can camp out the other person. But you will never make a system truly secure. If you can get them to rage-quit out of the system for good then you win. |
Kolvin Trask
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 04:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would suggest moving to wormhole space and planting a POS there.
A half dozen players can generally keep a class 3, 4, or 5 wormhole fairly secure, by closing off unwanted exits before doing sleeper ops or mining, and having a couple of caps built in the hole to discourage others from planting POSs in competition to your's.
They will need to be able to PvP as well as do ops or mine, as you will have to deal with folks sneaking in to take potshots.
Securing a lowsec system permanently is impossible. |
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
97
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 13:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
can I have the name of the system?
IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free>>>free ****>>>????
Public ch.: Basterds on vacation-á |
Kalli Brixzat
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 19:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
I remember some "merc" [read: pirate] corp making this kind of offer some years back [maybe 5+]. They were ~80 strong, in varying U.S. timezones. They'd charge some amount of isk per week in exchange for "securing" a low- or null-sec system, usually for un-allianced wanna be indy corps or conglomerates of independent miners/indys. They could do everything from providing belt security for active mining ops, to gate camps, to roams.
From what I heard, they actually got offers and did this steady for some months.
I heard from a guy that heard from a guy that corp decided to turn pure pirate mid-way through a contract and ganked every "customer" in system. Took off with a butt load of material and even some expensive ships. I'm guessing it's true...and there were tears shed and lolz to be had. |
The RUS Hunter
The WIzards of the Eyes
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.14 13:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:can I have the name of the system?
You won't be able to do anything except hide in station, why bother? |
Katrina Ghasha
24IC 1st Surplus Distribution Company
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.16 16:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
The RUS Hunter wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:can I have the name of the system? You won't be able to do anything except hide in station, why bother?
Because he wants to move his freighter to this safe system.
http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12409371 |
Matrix Operator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 15:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
What would be a more viable question is rather than "policing", with how hard it would be to just to keep a POS alive. He would probably be willing to wait out some gankers. Is there a point where a DeathStar or Dickstar becomes so annoying to take down that no one wants to do it? What is that point? How much would it cost to set it up?
Also, there are some isolate pockets of small low sec islands (where the only way through is to go through high sec). Would they be easier to keep a POS alive? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
271
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 20:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
There is no way to guarantee that you can keep a POS alive in low sec forever. Question is more like, what likelihood you can keep it alive long enough that it will pay itself back (or otherwise be useful enough for you). Towers are like ships: you only fly (set up) what you can afford to lose. Generally, if you set up the POS in a nice way, the likelihood of surviving long enough is good.
Keys to maximize your POS life is:
- know the area (it is impossible to say if a pocket is better than some other place; it depends on who lives there)
- talk nicely to nice locals
- know who you can afford to **** off in the area before pissing off anyone
- understand how strontium and reinforcement counters work
- have enough of a force or allies with force that if someone starts messing with you you can mess them back, and do not hide this from locals.
Setting a tower to a deathstar configuration can deter random gankers. It cannot deter someone who is determined to kill it. |
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