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A question concerning ransoming...

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Athos Zel'tar Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:38:00 - [1] I am currently planning on some solo pirating (if it's as fun as I keep hearing, I may just make a career out of it, you never know) and I don't need advice for pirate fits or whatever, I can find those easily enough. What I do want to know is how established pirates figure ransoms on the fly. I can imagine it would be a time-sensitive task, because you want to get away before corpmates or other pirates show up. If anyone would care to shed some light on this topic I would really appreciate it. Thanks
Shav'Rein	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:40:00 - [2] roughly the price of the unfitted ship. So when you hold me up in my Badger you'll want to charge me about 100k :)
Athos Zel'tar Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:43:00 - [3] C'mon I'm not that gullible
RedSplat Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:44:00 - [4] Some people factor the age of the player into how much they charge as well. Either way, whatever you demand, if he starts to stall or doesn't promptly give you the right amount pop his ship. Getting a killmail and whatever loot you grab is better than being blobbed by his friends. Dont bother ransoming a pod unless you don't care about sec status at all or the player is old enough he is likely implanted. There was even talk of French toast But there was none to be had
Shav'Rein	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:51:00 - [5] I don't pirate (being a noob) but my friends who do say they make the decision on the spot after deciding what they're likely fitted with (guessed from shooting at them and their response I would think), their age and what ship they're in. Also, last poster has a point, better to make it a quick end if they don't pay up promptly than get caught by their friends. Poor them if they don't have that money on them (happened to me on my first foray into low-sec and that's just the way the cookie crumbles).
Athos Zel'tar Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.04 13:57:00 - [6] Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. I guess it's really something that I'm going to have to get a feel for. I don't suppose it would be prudent to tell my first victim "look, this is my first time, I'm not sure what to do with this" ? Sorry, couldn't resist.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:20:00 - [7] simply blast them into structure then convo invite, and ransom for at the LEAST the total value of the ship + its cargo + what you think he has fitted
Ignition SemperFi Private Nuisance	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 04/12/2008 14:20:49 i set my prices off of ships. usually around 50-70mil for a BS depending on teir 200mil for faction/maurder/bo If i remember to keep my ship scanner alt around then i look at changing the pricing. But i use that as a default, and modify from there. I find they pay more if your not charging them 100% of the ship cost everytime.
Superfailsauce Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:27:00 - [9] I work it out on the fly in my head if we don't have a ship scanner on call. I usually take the base price of the hull then factor in character age, how well he's tanking, how much damage he's doing etc etc. So a 3 year character in a drake with a decent passive tank and T2 missiles I will ask for maybe 75 mil A 3 month character in a drake who is melting like butter and armed with rockets I will ask for maybe 20 mil, just so I don't have to sully my KB with his fit. Pods, I usually go by age, corp history, sec status etc etc, although with the LP store implants are worth sod all so most people just smack and prefer to be popped.
BlindBleu	Posted - 2008.12.04 14:51:00 - [10] Also not every player has the ISK on hand to meet the above ransom guidelines. I get most of my ISK from running level 2 missions. I sometimes haul ore for some ISK but that is not often enough. Also I haul contract courier missions for small amounts of ISK, the collateral for some of those take almost all of my available ISK. IIRC the secure cargo for those contract courier missions is basically unusable to anyone outside the contractor. So best cargo scan the soon to be blown target, I do not know what a cargo of secure contract courier would show on a scan. Be prepared for those that do not ransom. Like me.and several others I know. BlindBlue
Huurtney Gurdsen	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:04:00 - [11] You can ransom me any amount you want, I'm still going to self destruct. Yea, though I wart through the valet of thy shadowy hut I will feed no norman.
Athos Zel'tar Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:15:00 - [12] I realize that there will be those who prefer not to ransom. That is fine in my book, since I will get a KM plus some loot out of the deal. I probbably will not even bother with pods though, unless I decide to do this kind of thing for a living.
Buhhdust Princess Filthy Scum	Posted - 2008.12.04 15:33:00 - [13] Personally, i don't know many pirates who actually fund their accounts, ships etc off pirating. It would be very difficult for me to do that due to the lack of targets and ransoms on certain times. If you are thinking of going pirate, make sure you have an alt that can haul your ships and make money for you. Otherwise, it will be a struggle to do pirating properly. ________________________________________
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.04 16:42:00 - [14] Without a ship and cargo scanner (and both of them you won't have when you solo) you can just make a guess. Cruisers: 5 - 10M BC: 20-30M BS: 50-70M HAC: 90M Pods: 5-80M (this is very situational) Frigs: blow them up if they're not faction ones... Don't be too greedy, if the victim wants to negotiate you should consider it. Usually even a small ransom will bring you more than the crappy loot. Tell them your demands and give them 10 seconds to say 'yes' and pay you. In some cases you can also try to force the pilot to eject from his ship - but this will cause a serious logistics problem if you are alone. Good luck! My opinion is purely personal and not related to my alliance
Rram Ina	Posted - 2008.12.04 21:05:00 - [15] Edited by: Rram Ina on 04/12/2008 21:05:40 tier 1 BS: 50 million tier2: 80-90 m tier3 100 -120 m allways also try to make them believe (After they paid) that you did NOT received any money. they sometimes pay twice, or even more times. sometimes it's good fun, if some mates of them come in. you can kill them too! it's all about psychologic :)
Xander Kull	Posted - 2008.12.04 23:53:00 - [16] It seems to me that you must also factor in the idea that the pilot is going to assume that he will loose his ship anyway regardless of weather he pays or not. Remember, trust no one in this game. Instead of loosing what you ask for PLUS the cost of a fitted ship, I will let you have whatever mods survive intact, take my insurance money and buy a new ship.
Tai Paktu Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.12.05 00:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Tai Paktu on 05/12/2008 00:21:21 As a very rough general rule, around 60-75% of the ship hull for T1. This is assuming the target is platinum insured, which makes your offer seem all the better instead of having to completely refit, re-buy and reinsure their spaceboat. I'll generally also take into account character age, sometimes presumed fittings and rigs. If I think he's full T2 fit, the price goes up to take those into account. For example, if a Drake is tanking really well, I'm going to slap on an extra 35 mil or so, guessing he has Purger rigs. Same goes for presumed faction fits. For T2 ships, 75-90% of the hull, taking into account fittings and rigs again. I automatically assume T2 ships are fully T2 fit, but it's not a guarantee. Faction ships I ransom for just a little below contract prices, plus a full T2 fit and whatever rigs I think he's got (3x CCCs for mission boats, etc.) I'll jack the ransom anywhere from a little to a lot if the guy convo's me first or screams in local for a ransom because he, presumably, has some juicy he doesn't want to lose (and given how loot seems to drop for me, I don't wanna risk popping it either) Pods I usually ransom for a set of +3s, +4s or +5s if the target is a decent age or was flying some pimp ship and has ISK to burn. I'll usually invite the target to my ransom channel as soon as their tank breaks (below 33% on a passive shield tank, deep armour on an active, til he starts burning for armour tanks). I already have a ransom fee in my mind from the fight and will quickly type the demand plus the timeframe he has and the consequences if he fails to pay. If he wants to negotiate I demand he turns of his tank or, for passives, keep him in deep armour by periodically shooting him. He also needs to stop shooting and pull drones. If local goes up a lot or I get a lot of stuff on shortrange scan, I'll let him know not to pay and kill him. If I think he's stalling, I'll give a 10 second countdown and if the ISK isn't in my wallet, I'll pop him and offer a raincheck (meanwhile trying to catch the pod). Me> Care for a ransom? 80m, 30 seconds or you pop. Him > Don't have 80. How about 40? Me > Pull your drones, stop shooting and stop repping. 60m and you can go. /Local spike Me > Never mind, maybe next time. [pew pew pew, boom, scoop loot, gtfo] That's generally how I do it but everyone has a different style. Throw in some "yarrs" and an "ahhoy mattey," carebears love that immersive crap. edit: this should go without saying, but once they pay the full ammount (always check to be sure you get it all), you thank them for their business and LET THEM GO. Dishonouring ransoms doesn't only impact on you, but also the entire pirate community. Please don't do it. Good luck, you'll have some fun with the profession.
Tnam Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:18:00 - [18] Always ask at least 2x the hull value, because you know that you want the kill anyway so the worst case is you get the kill. If they pay at 2x the hull value, they you need to consider whether to send the isk back and kill the thing anyway because they must have something good. Most people won't pay anyway, and those that say they will pay are 1/2 the time using it as a stalling tactic to get backup.
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:54:00 - [19] Edited by: Neddy Fox on 05/12/2008 11:54:35 Don't try to ransom in Providence :) People who actually pay a ransom will be set KOS, and hunted down / hunted out of providence. This to make sure pirates won't find profit in our region :D ---- [PXIN Recruiter] PXIN Recruitement thread
Tnam Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2008.12.05 11:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Neddy Fox Edited by: Neddy Fox on 05/12/2008 11:54:35 Don't try to ransom in Providence :) People who actually pay a ransom will be set KOS, and hunted down / hunted out of providence. This to make sure pirates won't find profit in our region :D Lol, omg... must resist going to providence.
Kale Kold Caldari Brutal Seizure	Posted - 2008.12.05 12:16:00 - [21] This is an old pirate trick and very useful, i don't see any problem revealing it here. To successfully ransom someone you must be FAST in your dealings with them or they will have chance to get back to the gate or call for help! In order to speed things up and to make it absolutely clear they are being ransomed we use a player channel we've created. Simply configure the channel to block access but make sure there's no password so you can still invite anybody into it. Once you've set the channel up set the Message of the Day (MOTD) to 'THIS IS A RANSOM! Stop your engines, stop your guns!' Make sure its in big brightly coloured lettering. Now when you've decided your going to ransom someone, simply invite them to the channel, when they join they instantly get the MOTD and know that the ransom is about to begin. I also have some canned requests for ISK in my notepad so i can copy and paste how much i want and more importantly who to pay it to! This is very important, ALWAYS make it very clear who needs to receive the money. Always ask for at least the base price of the ship! Most people would rather pay there and then rather than be on their way to Jita to pay exactly the same amount of ISK to buy another ship (and then fit it). If they immediately offer you ISK way over the value of the ship, you know they are hauling extremely good loot and so you must decide wether or not to cancel the ransom and pop them and take the risk of the loot being destroyed. No ransom should EVER take longer than 30-40 seconds! If they are stalling for whatever reason, something is being planned!!! We've heard them all, 'transfering ISK from another char', 'I've got lag', 'How much is it again', etc, etc.. If they try any stalling at all pop them! Keep paranoid and your pirate mojo will increase. Never ever exceed 30-40 seconds. Always give them a count down and stick to it! Most important rule of all is: ALWAYS RESPECT AND HONOR YOUR RANSOMS! If they pay, let them go immediately! If they pay and you accidentally destroy them, pay the ransom back to them! This is without question! I've made loads of ISK from ransoms and nothing beats the rush of being handed free ISK for doing nothing other than intimidating pilots! Have Fun. Record of Destruction
Xander Kull	Posted - 2008.12.05 14:26:00 - [22] Again, I have to wonder if what I am reading here is a smoke screen. Several people have made a point to state that you must honor the ransom and let the pilot keep his ship. My previoius post implies that ransoming is not a good way to make a profit. I say this because I have been ransomed several times and every time I paid, it was not honored. I lost my ship anyway. (every time = 3 times, actually)Perhaps this style of ransoming is the exception and not the rule but the reality is that because of pirates that do not honor the ransom, the perception is that NO pirate will. I advise people to ALWAYS have an insured ship and NEVER pay the ransom because there is no way to know if it will be honored. (if important cargo is being transported, it is accompanied by security) Pirating is a legitimate business and in no way do I disagree with your trade. However, you need to know that this perception is out there and as long as there are "rogue" pirates out there, your ransom tactic has the potential to become less and less profitable.
BlindBleu Gallente Marsalle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.05 14:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Xander Kull It seems to me that you must also factor in the idea that the pilot is going to assume that he will loose his ship anyway regardless of weather he pays or not. Remember, trust no one in this game. Instead of loosing what you ask for PLUS the cost of a fitted ship, I will let you have whatever mods survive intact, take my insurance money and buy a new ship. This is my reasoning also. Either way the target is losing ISK in a ship or by ransom. Salvaging mods/wreck does not give the ISK that a ransom gives the Pyrate. Only winning move is not to pay. Lack of players paying ransom, means the intelligent Pyrates will find another means of income. Every Plan lasts until the first shot is fired. "I have a Plan, a good one." Generally means it is not. If Yellow it get a Fellow Killed
Kale Kold Caldari Brutal Seizure	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:07:00 - [24] Edited by: Kale Kold on 05/12/2008 16:12:48 Originally by: BlindBleu Only winning move is not to pay. Lack of players paying ransom, means the intelligent Pyrates will find another means of income. Nope, you're wrong. A ransom is the icing on the cake if we get one it's nice. Even if no one pays we still get the cake by popping you! If you are tackled and ransomed you are going to lose something. It might be ISK, it might be your ship and with lesser honorable pirates it could be both. It's up to you to decide at the time of the ransom what you want to lose, but you ARE going to lose! Simply not paying will never ever stop us from trying, after all we will have your burning wreck if nothing else. EDIT: One point to make is that your advise to others can actually be very costly. For example, me and a few others ransomed a freighter for 600mil not too long ago. The pilot would not pay through fear of us not honoring the deal (Which we always do!). He lost 1.3Bil and made us very rich! Linkage Record of Destruction
BlindBleu Gallente Marsalle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Kale Kold Edited by: Kale Kold on 05/12/2008 16:12:48 Originally by: BlindBleu Only winning move is not to pay. Lack of players paying ransom, means the intelligent Pyrates will find another means of income. Nope, you're wrong. A ransom is the icing on the cake if we get one it's nice. Even if no one pays we still get the cake by popping you! If you are tackled and ransomed you are going to lose something. It might be ISK, it might be your ship and with lesser honorable pirates it could be both. It's up to you to decide at the time of the ransom what you want to lose, but you ARE going to lose! Simply not paying will never ever stop us from trying, after all we will have your burning wreck if nothing else. EDIT: One point to make is that your advise to others can actually be very costly. For example, me and a few others ransomed a freighter for 600mil not too long ago. The pilot would not pay through fear of us not honoring the deal (Which we always do!). He lost 1.3Bil and made us very rich! Linkage Sorry but it is not clear to me,,did you earn 600 million Isk from the wreck? How much wreckage is there if the Target self destructs? But in the long run if your targets refuse to ransom, it will no longer be as profitable to you and yours. Every Plan lasts until the first shot is fired. "I have a Plan, a good one." Generally means it is not. If Yellow it get a Fellow Killed
Gatiep	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:41:00 - [26] Some advice with what I do when I ransom others. I usually get the obligatory "How do I know you won't kill me after I sent the isk" thrown at me after stating my ransom. Remember, the things you respond with may ultimately change the mind of the ransomee, so choose your words wisely and you have a far likelier chance of having a successful ransom. What do I do? I always tell them "Look at my sec status (which is usually positive, such as 0.02.)" I then reason with them, telling them that if I killed every ship I ransomed afterward my security status would certainly not be in such good shape. I then tell them that's the best guarantee I can give them. Guess what? It works, I've had 7 ransom sessions in the last month and only had two pop because of local spike/time delay. Either they will be intent on dying or pay the ransom; you will not provide them with reason that you will pop them after they pay a ransom. Of course the reasoning is valid, which is good, but on the downside this can only be used when your security status isn't horrible, i.e. -10. I bet people will still trust you even if you're slightly negative (will field test this soon :D). If you don't honor them, well you won't give anyone reason to believe you're trustworthy via sec status.That said, always honor your ransoms and have fun.
Kale Kold Caldari Brutal Seizure	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: BlindBleu Sorry but it is not clear to me,,did you earn 600 million Isk from the wreck? How much wreckage is there if the Target self destructs? But in the long run if your targets refuse to ransom, it will no longer be as profitable to you and yours. We jumped in haulers and hauled off all the dropped items (look at the killboard) and sold them. We made about 600mil ISK (200mil for each pirate). We obviously didn't get any ransom otherwise he would of been set free. No targets ever self destruct! We never let them have enough time. Self destructing takes 2mins IIRC. If no one paid us any ransoms, it is still very profitable. Different ships drop different items when destroyed but we usually make 5-20mil per Cruiser/BattleCruiser more for a Battleship maybe 15-30mil. The real good stuff comes from haulers and freighters, you would'nt believe what people transport without escorts and we can 'one-shot' them. Record of Destruction
Kale Kold Caldari Brutal Seizure	Posted - 2008.12.05 16:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Gatiep Some advice with what I do when I ransom others. I usually get the obligatory "How do I know you won't kill me after I sent the isk" thrown at me after stating my ransom. Remember, the things you respond with may ultimately change the mind of the ransomee, so choose your words wisely and you have a far likelier chance of having a successful ransom. What do I do? I always tell them "Look at my sec status (which is usually positive, such as 0.02.)" I then reason with them, telling them that if I killed every ship I ransomed afterward my security status would certainly not be in such good shape. I then tell them that's the best guarantee I can give them. Guess what? It works, I've had 7 ransom sessions in the last month and only had two pop because of local spike/time delay. Either they will be intent on dying or pay the ransom; you will not provide them with reason that you will pop them after they pay a ransom. Of course the reasoning is valid, which is good, but on the downside this can only be used when your security status isn't horrible, i.e. -10. I bet people will still trust you even if you're slightly negative (will field test this soon :D). If you don't honor them, well you won't give anyone reason to believe you're trustworthy via sec status.That said, always honor your ransoms and have fun. Interesting! I go with the intimidate approach, i basically give them 30secs to decide if they are going to pay. If not they go boom. For the record, i'm -10.0 and i've been paid more times than not. Remember, though, you must always honor the ransom! Record of Destruction
Bfoster The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Huurtney Gurdsen You can ransom me any amount you want, I'm still going to self destruct. And when I see the self-destruct popup. I will finish you off and pod you, hope you got your clone updated! ----------------------------------------------- The Tuskers
BlindBleu Gallente Marsalle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.05 17:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: BlindBleu Sorry but it is not clear to me,,did you earn 600 million Isk from the wreck? How much wreckage is there if the Target self destructs? But in the long run if your targets refuse to ransom, it will no longer be as profitable to you and yours. We jumped in haulers and hauled off all the dropped items (look at the killboard) and sold them. We made about 600mil ISK (200mil for each pirate). We obviously didn't get any ransom otherwise he would of been set free. No targets ever self destruct! We never let them have enough time. Self destructing takes 2mins IIRC. If no one paid us any ransoms, it is still very profitable. Different ships drop different items when destroyed but we usually make 5-20mil per Cruiser/BattleCruiser more for a Battleship maybe 15-30mil. The real good stuff comes from haulers and freighters, you would'nt believe what people transport without escorts and we can 'one-shot' them. I agree about what some will try and do solo, I know I am one of those, but I take responsibility for my decisions and actions. Question if the target freighter is hauling a courier contracted secure cargo, and you blow the ship are you able to recover anything from the secure courier contracted cargo? Every Plan lasts until the first shot is fired. "I have a Plan, a good one." Generally means it is not. If Yellow it get a Fellow Killed

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