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GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 08:41:00 - [1] Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 08:42:09 POS IPO Plan ò Chapter 1 - Summary of Concerned bears ò Chapter 2 - Background on origins/idea/current business ò Chapter 3 - Corporate Governance ò Chapter 4 - The Business Plan (either beginning or expanding) ò Chapter 5 - Statement of Assets ò Chapter 6 - Full Disclosure of Risks ò Chapter 7 - Full Disclosure of Main and Alts ò Chapter 8 - Exit Strategy Chapter 1. I founded this corp with a friend who is now gone to have a break from the hectic life of 0.0 and so sat down to run missions and have been planning for a while to set up pos reactions as I have access to safe low sec, as am friendly with the pirate corp. Chapter 2. Had the idea for a while just deciding now to carry it out, current business: none. Chapter 3. I and only I will be able to have access to the tower/Isk etc and to those of you in the hit by a bus crowd this will probably turn you away. Chapter 4. The moons provide all but one material for a titanium carbide reaction meaning that profit per set of towers is around 200-250 million ISK weekly before fuel costs and depending on the market at the time. Of the profits made all 100% will be paid out to investors until their initial investment is paid off, it will then drop to 75% with the other 25% going towards expansion and further improvement of the set up as and when possible, and of these benefits they will be made public and all current investors will receive the profits as they would off the first POSÆs. I plan to use DG large posÆs due to the cheap fuel costs of around 20-25 mil per tower brining profits down to 200mil a week per set of towers. The overall plan is to set up 4 sets of towers but this depends on interest in this idea. I have currently 1000 shares in my corp of which 250 will go to each set of posÆs, if I donÆt sell enough then I will pay manually rather than dividends. The total cost of each set is 3billion isk: 2x large DG tower all said fittings, initial fuel and materials. So each share costs just 12,000,000 isk, for which you will receive a monthly payout (presuming 4 weeks in a month) of 3,200,000 isk. Chapter 5. Assets: my badger fleet. Chapter 6. The risks. I am friendly with some of the local pirate corp who have guaranteed to protect me and my pos free of charge, so the only risk at the current time is someone invading their low sec or been ganked in hi sec. Chapter 7 This is currently my only account with no other characters on the account. Chapter 8. In case of an emergency and I need to pull out I simply spend many hours ripping it all down and getting it out. And if it is nto viable to set them up again i will sell off assets and payback 100% of the initial investment
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2008.12.06 09:00:00 - [2] Why the faction towers? I understand the concern with fuel costs but that's a lot of isk to be leaving out unsecured in lowsec. If you were part of a major alliance I would feel safer but relying on "friendly" pirate corps to save your bacon is... dicey. I might as well start the call for an audit, although given that you don't own the towers or have 3b isk to start a set yourself I'm not sure what good it will be.
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 09:05:00 - [3] Yup i'll happily provide my api key to someoen trusted, yes your right i complelty overlooked the isk bit, i'll rewrite it, i'll put 1bil isk into it. i can understand your concern but the trafic here is low to none exsistent apart from this corp
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.06 11:04:00 - [4] The moons are currently unclaimed? The pirate corp wants no piece of the pie at all? FREE! jumpclone service
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 11:30:00 - [5] Moons are curretnly unclaimed. and yup i've been friendly for along time with them there good at what they do and they arn't using them so they said i could
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.06 12:23:00 - [6] cosmoray what are the percentage chances for success of lowsec moon mining or reaction IPO's?
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 12:49:00 - [7] Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 12:49:30 can i ask how there is a chance of success the maths shows the profit quiet clearly, and i can't stress enough the strong nature of the pirate corp, they wish to remain anon though so sorry if you wanted to ask them questions. i could maybe pass any questions on and pass the replies back to you.
Estel Arador Minmatar	Posted - 2008.12.06 13:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Estel Arador on 06/12/2008 13:02:06 Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 12:49:30 can i ask how there is a chance of success the maths shows the profit quiet clearly, and i can't stress enough the strong nature of the pirate corp, they wish to remain anon though so sorry if you wanted to ask them questions. i could maybe pass any questions on and pass the replies back to you. Let's where this could go wrong (and I'm listing a few things from the top of my head): You haven't claimed the moons yet, so someone else could You rely on the protection of a very trustworthy pirate corp, who will not confirm their involvement or even their existence The POS structures and the materials will have to be transported through low-sec, where (other?) pirates might get involved. "The moons provide all but one material", where will you get that material? It will be transported how many jumps through low sec? Are the prices stable? Is your "badger fleet" the best way to transport stuff through low sec? Wouldn't Blockade Runners be a better idea? And this all assuming good faith on your part. There always is a risk the person asking for the isk is a scammer. Since you've provided no collateral or any way to liquidate corp assets if you disappear, that risk is especially high. FREE! jumpclone service
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 13:24:00 - [9] Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 13:25:24 Originally by: Estel Arador Edited by: Estel Arador on 06/12/2008 13:02:06 Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 12:49:30 can i ask how there is a chance of success the maths shows the profit quiet clearly, and i can't stress enough the strong nature of the pirate corp, they wish to remain anon though so sorry if you wanted to ask them questions. i could maybe pass any questions on and pass the replies back to you. Let's where this could go wrong (and I'm listing a few things from the top of my head): You haven't claimed the moons yet, so someone else could You rely on the protection of a very trustworthy pirate corp, who will not confirm their involvement or even their existence The POS structures and the materials will have to be transported through low-sec, where (other?) pirates might get involved. "The moons provide all but one material", where will you get that material? It will be transported how many jumps through low sec? Are the prices stable? Is your "badger fleet" the best way to transport stuff through low sec? Wouldn't Blockade Runners be a better idea? And this all assuming good faith on your part. There always is a risk the person asking for the isk is a scammer. Since you've provided no collateral or any way to liquidate corp assets if you disappear, that risk is especially high. i have cans at the moons but thereis little chnace of anyone else setting up as its only the pirate corp in local. and its a high sec to low sec system soi go from the .3 to a .7 and then off to jita to do the buy sell haul etc i've foudn a abdger in the past quick and easy enough to use. yup i can understant the risks and there is no realy way of assuring syou i'm not a scammer except my word on it. i had started to save for this myself just my isk making at current is slow
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2008.12.06 15:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Ricdic cosmoray what are the percentage chances for success of lowsec moon mining or reaction IPO's? Nice!! If you round to 2 decimel places its zero!! Ricdic is pointing out the slight problem with your plan, which I will point out. Quote: I founded this corp with a friend who is now gone to have a break from the hectic life of 0.0 and so sat down to run missions and have been planning for a while to set up pos reactions as I have access to safe low sec, as am friendly with the pirate corp No such things as safe low sec. These IPO's have been the worst investments in MD for very long time
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:18:00 - [11] I can understand the concerns, i jsut can't stress enough how 'secure' this low sec is there is little chance of anything going wrong its out the way and there is no local trafic apart from the pirate corp
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:30:00 - [12] *whips out reaction spreadsheet Given current market prices there is literally no way you could ever make a profit in low sec with any reaction given the investment amount. You'll be lucky to break even at the moment. Like all things market related, prices do change, but to be perfectly frank you'd need a reaction chain MUCH longer to make this anything of a profitable enterprise.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:45:00 - [13] Sounds like you just offered to audit Kazzac
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Ricdic Sounds like you just offered to audit Kazzac I lack little time at the moment, and besides I think of anyone to do the audit it should NOT be me. The last POS chain reaction I audited was a scam remember? I need less drama in my life, not more
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 16:57:00 - [15] I've run the maths numerous times and what i put in the initial post is what i get each time. even using the lowest prices for buy orders etc i still make around 150mil minimum a week per set of towers
Finedele Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:02:00 - [16] well, i wouldnt say you cant make a profit from a low sec reaction, but it takes at least two months to break even (at good prices), given this + the attention you just got to your (alt)char (havent checked) + the likeliness of this being a scam (what pos chain ipo wasnt a scam in the last 12 months?) + the thinness of your "plan" makes this ... not worthy . a little free advice of me as i do some reactions on my research posses: a "fleet" of badgers will a little bit SMALL if it comes to logistics (buying material + fuel, selling reaction mass). hope you enjoy your jumps to jita
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:06:00 - [17] Wish people didn't scam spoils it for all of us :( i know it sounds like alot of work but i wouldn't even have bothered typing this up if i couldn't be bothered to haul
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:39:00 - [18] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE I've run the maths numerous times and what i put in the initial post is what i get each time. even using the lowest prices for buy orders etc i still make around 150mil minimum a week per set of towers Here is the issue I have with your current plan. At current reaction prices, assuming you are using buy orders for your fuel, missing reactants, etc.. and again assuming you're using the most profitable reactions in the R8-16 range, I can safely assume you'll be netting close to 12% at the end of the month. AND! thats not even taking into account your payment amount to investors either. Of course this could all be moot, maybe you got lucky and have in your knowledge an R32 in some backwoods .1 or something (doubtful but you never know). Since to be honest if its just you, the chances for burnout are extremely high since you'll have to be fueling, running, and hauling product from a minimum of 3 towers just to turn a positive enough return to get your investment back on the towers alone within 3 months. And then we add into the issue of WarDecs, etc... So here is my question, if say we're trading one reactant to maximize your profits on a minuscule return for another reactant.....why bother doing the reaction at all and just sit in station and trade the reactants. ...these are the things that I've been doing for the last 4 months since Alchemy became reality.
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:43:00 - [19] I've run and re ran the numbers and 'i'll standby what i get , i don't know what yourdoing to get such poor numbers. yes war decs would be a slight problem but its generaly not hard to avoid them, but of course u don't know my abilities.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.06 17:50:00 - [20] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE I've run and re ran the numbers and 'i'll standby what i get , i don't know what yourdoing to get such poor numbers. yes war decs would be a slight problem but its generaly not hard to avoid them, but of course u don't know my abilities. Thats sorta the issue here
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:24:00 - [21] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE I've run and re ran the numbers and 'i'll standby what i get , i don't know what yourdoing to get such poor numbers. yes war decs would be a slight problem but its generaly not hard to avoid them, but of course u don't know my abilities. Thats sorta the issue here i know, am trying to think of ways to help convince you
Damien Jax Chaos Faction	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:44:00 - [22] Let someone audit you, that'd help the trust factor a bit. Also, add some more detail to the IPO, it seems kinda bare. I know you want to keep some things a secret, but that's not going to work because people won't trust you. The last reaction IPO, as Kazac stated was a major scam.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:47:00 - [23] Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 06/12/2008 18:47:40 Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE I've run and re ran the numbers and 'i'll standby what i get , i don't know what yourdoing to get such poor numbers. yes war decs would be a slight problem but its generaly not hard to avoid them, but of course u don't know my abilities. Thats sorta the issue here i know, am trying to think of ways to help convince you First of all, what will you be reacting? We don't need to know the regional locations, just the moon types and quantities. What is the final product? Where will you plan on dumping said product? Have you had any experience in the moon reactant business? *edited cause I cannot spell today
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 18:52:00 - [24] Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 18:52:51 I've run some pos reactions in the past the last one i did was at the start of this year but finsihed it in febuary. i will be makign titanium carbide and be dumping it all in jita its a short trip. Also i did say i woudl happly give someone reputable my full api
Darin Raltin Amarr Two Brothers Mining Corp. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:00:00 - [25] The problem I'm seeing is that you are asking for 12 billion isk up front to fund an operation that will take months to repay itself even if you weren't paying investors. You've just advertised your intent to put up a moon mining pos that you have 12 billion isk of stuff sitting on. You have no guns on the pos (or at least didn't directly say you were going to have guns) to defend it and your defense is coming from a 3rd party that makes it business ransoming and destroying people. I imagine there are corps out there that will read this, go find a locator agent, see where you live, and come ransom the moon out from under you. Unless your pirate buddies are Veto. caliber or similarly badass, the basic law in EVE applies - if you have 20 ship, I'll bring 100 - and a juicy 12 billion isk target will more than pay for their losses. Why don't you save yourself the trouble and go trade mins from market hub to market hub, or start a little manufacturing hub? The returns on the carbide reactions just aren't high enough to get this off the ground.
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:08:00 - [26] Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 19:09:12 ok 20 carriers and 2 motherships is what they can bring to the table, so yeh they are worthless Of coruse the POS'S will have guns. and i'm not asking for all 12bil liek i said its 4 sets of pos's so if i only get funding for 2 of the sets then so be it i can't pay vie the divdens system just involves breaking out excel every month so aprox 200mil a week is not worth it? seems pretty good time considering not in 0.0 with fancy moons
Darin Raltin Amarr Two Brothers Mining Corp. Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Darin Raltin on 06/12/2008 19:22:19 Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 19:09:12 ok 20 carriers and 2 motherships is what they can bring to the table, so yeh they are worthless This is hearsay without proof. I fly my own titan to work and I have more isk than Ebank, so you should automatically trust what I say (see what I did there?). Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE so aprox 200mil a week is not worth it? seems pretty good time considering not in 0.0 with fancy moons So you earn 200 mil a week on an investment of 3 billion. This means it will take 15 weeks to payoff the principal. Over 3 months. This assumes A) no haulers (and their cargo) lost B) you don't burn out and do a runner with the isk C) the pos gear remains intact for 15 weeks D) your pirate buddies with their (alleged) cap fleet don't decide to relocate to better hunting grounds E) your pirate buddies still being alive F) your pirate buddies deciding to sell you out G) No significant shifts in price
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 19:51:00 - [28] A) no haulers (and their cargo) lost B) you don't burn out and do a runner with the isk C) the pos gear remains intact for 15 weeks D) your pirate buddies with their (alleged) cap fleet don't decide to relocate to better hunting grounds E) your pirate buddies still being alive F) your pirate buddies deciding to sell you out G) No significant shifts in price i can't give you solid proof as its impossible to do so on any of these except the burning out one, i would never do a runner with other peoples isk,eve. the pirate have said cap fleet can't prove it you have to take my word. they get regular kill nice healthy kilboards etc, chances of them moving are slim to non exsistant. when i posted my ipo questions thread a while back you all said expect to be questioned like a mofo, you weren't lying :P
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.12.06 20:07:00 - [29] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Chapter 7 This is currently my only account with no other characters on the account. This may be difficult for an audit to establish, keeping in mind that GRAVEN FIVE is a purchased pilot. On the other hand, the OP's forum posting history does claim past experience with moon minerals and reactions, and some research over the past few months, building up to this offering. (Source: Forum thread)
Ivar Strahm	Posted - 2008.12.06 20:39:00 - [30] In this thread you offer an equation to support your "200 mil per week" profit figure, but as pointed out there you do not include the costs of all of the materials required for the reaction. You later amended the formula by including the price of the material you don't have access to, but based on your posts here and the omission of the cost of the other materials, it seems like you are saying "The materials I mine myself are free." I believe this position might be partially responsible for the confusion regarding your profit estimates.
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.06 21:35:00 - [31] you will also notice that i would be doing a differnt reaction due to the mateirals been avaidable at a moon rather than having to buy more.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.12.07 00:50:00 - [32] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE you will also notice that i would be doing a differnt reaction due to the mateirals been avaidable at a moon rather than having to buy more. So I see you also subscribe to the "The stuff I mine is free" school of thought. Sorta confirms what I had posted. 12% margin covers your offering but leaves you little in the way of mgt fees and pay for your effort. People do not do POS chain reactions out of the goodness of their heart.
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.07 00:55:00 - [33] Of the profits made all 100% will be paid out to investors until their initial investment is paid off, it will then drop to 75% with the other 25% going towards expansion and further improvement of the set up as and when possible no i do make isk once the initial invesment is payed off and i would be buying 80 of the shares as i specified
Psychotic Penguin Gallente The Professional's Club The Second Genesis	Posted - 2008.12.07 05:37:00 - [34] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE Edited by: GRAVEN FIVE on 06/12/2008 19:09:12 ok 20 carriers and 2 motherships is what they can bring to the table, so yeh they are worthless that is not necessarily a good thing, what if they get bored one day and decides to go visit your POS, they are pirates after all. ____________________________________________________ Reality is for those who have no imagination.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.12.07 06:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Bloody Rabbit on 07/12/2008 06:10:47 Graven, I wish you the best of luck on this business opportunity but I feel that you don't understand how much work and how much isk you risk with a low sec operation. If you planned to have a loss rate of 10% or 20% then myself and others could see that at least you are putting a number to the risk. But by simply saying that there is no risk because you have pirate friends isn't covering the risk. If you had the pirates on pay roll that would be different. As I said before, good luck and I hope that you make 100's of billions in the reaction business before you burn out. edit the grammer, when are we going to have a grammer check
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.07 10:57:00 - [36] i wouldn't have to pay the pirates anything cause i've payed them in the past which they have said was enough.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.12.07 11:31:00 - [37] Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE I wouldn't have to pay the pirates anything 'cause I've paid them in the past, which they have said was enough. These are pirates we're discussing. Maybe if they read about how you got 12 billion ISK from investors, these friendly neighbours might change their minds and decide that you can afford to pay once more?
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.12.07 12:43:00 - [38] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 07/12/2008 12:43:22 Originally by: GRAVEN FIVE i wouldn't have to pay the pirates anything cause i've payed them in the past which they have said was enough. I bet you wanted to stuff more isk down their throats and they refused. Right? Black Sun Empire
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.07 14:18:00 - [39] hardly, were good friends that is all. and they said thye might put some isk towards this if it gets going at all but you all seem to think it won't :(
GRAVEN FIVE	Posted - 2008.12.07 16:29:00 - [40] ok this is going nowahre forget all this back to my capital production idea, and thansk to xabier for the advice on that.

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2008.12.08 06:42:00 - [41] Thread is locked as OP requested. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang


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