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Tar om
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Posted - 2004.07.15 13:02:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tar om on 15/07/2004 13:06:58
The way I see it, the Tempest was a damage dealer with a weakness in tanking. Hard hitting but fragile and very vulnerable if you manage to get your tanked apoc/mega/raven right up close. At the moment it is perfectly designed for this apart from just one thing - its DoT is too small at range.
Now, to counter this we could increase the damage on 1400s (and the rest of large proj in proportion) but that would boost all 1400mm users, and perhaps make them attractive to ships that traditionally "shouldn't" be using them.
So, I'm kinda left with suggesting something that at first glance looks crazy. Increase the ship bonuses. It boost the DoT at range without affecting the basic character of the ship, or proxy boosting other races.
Am I crazy?
Tar om
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We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
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Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tar om on 15/07/2004 13:06:58
The way I see it, the Tempest was a damage dealer with a weakness in tanking. Hard hitting but fragile and very vulnerable if you manage to get your tanked apoc/mega/raven right up close. At the moment it is perfectly designed for this apart from just one thing - its DoT is too small at range.
Now, to counter this we could increase the damage on 1400s (and the rest of large proj in proportion) but that would boost all 1400mm users, and perhaps make them attractive to ships that traditionally "shouldn't" be using them.
So, I'm kinda left with suggesting something that at first glance looks crazy. Increase the ship bonuses. It boost the DoT at range without affecting the basic character of the ship, or proxy boosting other races.
Am I crazy?
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 10:28:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Tar om on 16/07/2004 10:36:02
Edited by: Tar om on 16/07/2004 10:31:09
Damage types: The Raven can cause any flavour of damage it likes as well, and it can do it while target jammed and/or sensor damped. Whats more, it doesn't have to alter range to target due to a shifting optimal.
The cost of 0 cap use. IMO this is tracking. The 1400 has the lowest tracking of the lot, and the poor DoT of proj in general means that you are strongly penalised if you do not use a 1400. As it stands currently, once you get a ship within ~20km of a Tempest, you're pretty much safe unless you both sit still or you follow the Tempest in a straight line. The 1400 could stand to do a lot more damage, as long as it keeps its weakness close in. Think of it as the opposite of a blaster.
Tanking and DoT. If you tank a Tempest you cannot use lowslot tracking/damage mods. This hurts the 1400mm. Tanking a Tempest to the same level as an apoc or a Mega will still leave you losing because you cannot match the DoT of these ships with a tanked setup anyway. The Tempest can Do Damage or Take Damage, not both.
Ship bonuses: I think the Tempest needs a boost. I don't know the numbers, and I am not going to work it out right now, but it needs the DoT to be the highest of all ships _When at optimal range_ The Tempest can be easily killed by any other BS in the game if it gets close enough (easily achieved with a frigate and warp to gang-member). At close range, the guns are inneffective and the tanking poor. Using the long range of a Tempest is a harder tactic than short range, simply due to the nature of combat in EVE which concentrates round gates and stations. Yes, you can warp to anything at 60km (Just barely far enough imo, I'd like a 100km option) but if you warp to every gate at 60km you soon get left behind in a fleet battle.
Skill intensive? Yes. My Tempest with the benefit of 10m SP is out damaged and out tanked _simultanously_ by my corpmate's Raven with <5m SP.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 10:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tar om on 16/07/2004 10:36:02
Edited by: Tar om on 16/07/2004 10:31:09
Damage types: The Raven can cause any flavour of damage it likes as well, and it can do it while target jammed and/or sensor damped. Whats more, it doesn't have to alter range to target due to a shifting optimal.
The cost of 0 cap use. IMO this is tracking. The 1400 has the lowest tracking of the lot, and the poor DoT of proj in general means that you are strongly penalised if you do not use a 1400. As it stands currently, once you get a ship within ~20km of a Tempest, you're pretty much safe unless you both sit still or you follow the Tempest in a straight line. The 1400 could stand to do a lot more damage, as long as it keeps its weakness close in. Think of it as the opposite of a blaster.
Tanking and DoT. If you tank a Tempest you cannot use lowslot tracking/damage mods. This hurts the 1400mm. Tanking a Tempest to the same level as an apoc or a Mega will still leave you losing because you cannot match the DoT of these ships with a tanked setup anyway. The Tempest can Do Damage or Take Damage, not both.
Ship bonuses: I think the Tempest needs a boost. I don't know the numbers, and I am not going to work it out right now, but it needs the DoT to be the highest of all ships _When at optimal range_ The Tempest can be easily killed by any other BS in the game if it gets close enough (easily achieved with a frigate and warp to gang-member). At close range, the guns are inneffective and the tanking poor. Using the long range of a Tempest is a harder tactic than short range, simply due to the nature of combat in EVE which concentrates round gates and stations. Yes, you can warp to anything at 60km (Just barely far enough imo, I'd like a 100km option) but if you warp to every gate at 60km you soon get left behind in a fleet battle.
Skill intensive? Yes. My Tempest with the benefit of 10m SP is out damaged and out tanked _simultanously_ by my corpmate's Raven with <5m SP.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:10:00 -
[5]
no chimp, its at best equal and usually far worse than that. I think you misread the early posts.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:10:00 -
[6]
no chimp, its at best equal and usually far worse than that. I think you misread the early posts.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:19:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Moadeep
There is one thing about the Raven's possibility to make damage, that could easy be dealed with. It's blue, it's fast and it's name is defender.
And a tempest is a large patched ball of scrap metal, it's not about getting into close combat. Stay away from your enemy, stay fast. That's it. If you need to tank your Tempest, you use the wrong ship.
And for fleet battles the tempest isn't about first line combat, think of it as the most deadly sniper, ... scan says no explosive hardeners ... Fusion reloaded ... BOOOM ... maybe not DoT absolut, but DoT where it hurts most.
Fedaykin style, hit hard where unexpected.
If you can fire enough defenders to defeat a Raven's missile stream you are flying another Raven - and you are still not doing any damage.
As for a sniper, yes thats exactly what the Tempest is meant to be, but the DoT is too poor to kill a properly tanked BS (at least in any reasonable length of time). My point is that the Tempest should be able to overcome a properly tanked setup if it is at optimum range. (No, not instantly, but it should have a better chance at it that it does at the moment). It would not make the ship uber in anyway because the target can either warp out and back in close, or (in some case) us an MWD/AB to drive right up to you and stick blasters down your throat.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Moadeep
There is one thing about the Raven's possibility to make damage, that could easy be dealed with. It's blue, it's fast and it's name is defender.
And a tempest is a large patched ball of scrap metal, it's not about getting into close combat. Stay away from your enemy, stay fast. That's it. If you need to tank your Tempest, you use the wrong ship.
And for fleet battles the tempest isn't about first line combat, think of it as the most deadly sniper, ... scan says no explosive hardeners ... Fusion reloaded ... BOOOM ... maybe not DoT absolut, but DoT where it hurts most.
Fedaykin style, hit hard where unexpected.
If you can fire enough defenders to defeat a Raven's missile stream you are flying another Raven - and you are still not doing any damage.
As for a sniper, yes thats exactly what the Tempest is meant to be, but the DoT is too poor to kill a properly tanked BS (at least in any reasonable length of time). My point is that the Tempest should be able to overcome a properly tanked setup if it is at optimum range. (No, not instantly, but it should have a better chance at it that it does at the moment). It would not make the ship uber in anyway because the target can either warp out and back in close, or (in some case) us an MWD/AB to drive right up to you and stick blasters down your throat.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:24:00 -
[9]
because you need to fit RCU to get the guns onto a Tempest so it has less lowslots available. Gyrostabs are also pretty much un-missable too.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:24:00 -
[10]
because you need to fit RCU to get the guns onto a Tempest so it has less lowslots available. Gyrostabs are also pretty much un-missable too.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:28:00 -
[11]
Quote:
k here's a hint, NO SINGLE battleship can overcome a tanks ability to tank at range, not a mega, not a apoc, none of em can.
Exactly, this is the niche that the Tempest should be filling. It can't do it at short range due to tracking - fair enough. But at long range, the Tempest should be able to do as much damage as a Mega does at close range.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:28:00 -
[12]
Quote:
k here's a hint, NO SINGLE battleship can overcome a tanks ability to tank at range, not a mega, not a apoc, none of em can.
Exactly, this is the niche that the Tempest should be filling. It can't do it at short range due to tracking - fair enough. But at long range, the Tempest should be able to do as much damage as a Mega does at close range.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:44:00 -
[13]
You can hit at 100km with a 1400mm but you won't kill anything. The damage with Proton is very poor. The 1400mm does its best damage between about 40km to 60km. 0 cap use? Well on the guns, yeah - but you end up using it all on a large shield booster just to try and tank out as much as you can. I guess we are not going to agree, especially as you seem to think that close range should be rewarded more than long range. Close range is much more common than long range and therefore an advantage in close range fighting is more useful.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 11:44:00 -
[14]
You can hit at 100km with a 1400mm but you won't kill anything. The damage with Proton is very poor. The 1400mm does its best damage between about 40km to 60km. 0 cap use? Well on the guns, yeah - but you end up using it all on a large shield booster just to try and tank out as much as you can. I guess we are not going to agree, especially as you seem to think that close range should be rewarded more than long range. Close range is much more common than long range and therefore an advantage in close range fighting is more useful.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 18:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: dalman
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Nope, not my point at all. I would like the Tempest to have a strength in one area as the other BS do. I fully accept that a strength should be balanced with weakness in other areas.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.16 18:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: dalman
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Nope, not my point at all. I would like the Tempest to have a strength in one area as the other BS do. I fully accept that a strength should be balanced with weakness in other areas.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.18 11:25:00 -
[17]
I would go with a a ship bonus or proj damage multiplier boost over a tracking boost. 1400mm should deal great damage, but not at close range. Close range is mega/apoc turf and boosting tracking would allow the Tempest too much DoT close in.
I would also leave the tanking as it is, if we make all ships into good armour or shield tankers then its cookie cutter time. Boost the damage at range (preferably increase the falloff again too so you can do extreme long range setups with 2xf-90s at the expense of shield tanking) and leave the tanking alone.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.18 11:25:00 -
[18]
I would go with a a ship bonus or proj damage multiplier boost over a tracking boost. 1400mm should deal great damage, but not at close range. Close range is mega/apoc turf and boosting tracking would allow the Tempest too much DoT close in.
I would also leave the tanking as it is, if we make all ships into good armour or shield tankers then its cookie cutter time. Boost the damage at range (preferably increase the falloff again too so you can do extreme long range setups with 2xf-90s at the expense of shield tanking) and leave the tanking alone.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.19 02:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Tar om on 19/07/2004 03:04:41
Originally by: JoCool
That would leave shield tanking unbalanced (inferior) to armor tanking.
yep, I'm talking about what the Tempest would need in the current environment wrt tanking. I think the Tempest shield tanking is about right (one large shield booster and a couple of hardeners) IF the DOT is increased and preferably range increased too. If shield tanking is boosted then the Tempest could stand some tweak to keep it at the current level.
Then again, the shield tanking debate can probably be left to one side until we see what DOT the raven is capable of once the missiles get changed.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.19 02:55:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Tar om on 19/07/2004 03:04:41
Originally by: JoCool
That would leave shield tanking unbalanced (inferior) to armor tanking.
yep, I'm talking about what the Tempest would need in the current environment wrt tanking. I think the Tempest shield tanking is about right (one large shield booster and a couple of hardeners) IF the DOT is increased and preferably range increased too. If shield tanking is boosted then the Tempest could stand some tweak to keep it at the current level.
Then again, the shield tanking debate can probably be left to one side until we see what DOT the raven is capable of once the missiles get changed.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.20 02:36:00 -
[21]
Hmmm, doesn't sound like great news for either of us next time we meet a Raven.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.20 02:36:00 -
[22]
Hmmm, doesn't sound like great news for either of us next time we meet a Raven.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 15:46:00 -
[23]
Increase the range on 1400s for the love of God, and while you're at it give them decent DoT as well. Leave the tanking as it is, Minmatar don't tank.
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We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 15:46:00 -
[24]
Increase the range on 1400s for the love of God, and while you're at it give them decent DoT as well. Leave the tanking as it is, Minmatar don't tank.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
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