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Anyone ever requested open gui?

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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.12 15:23:00 - [1] Cause its probably the best thing anyone at an mmo company has ever done. And with the amount of dedicated computer geniuses developing stuff for ever for FREE I can only imagine what eve's gui could become if only the gui were modable. Just look at EFT, eve commander, the killboard project, etc, so much free talent out there at ccp's disposal. ___________________ Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.12.12 21:35:00 - [2] Was a big topic of my CSM campaign, and I wasn't the first. I agree fully - this is the single best change CCP could possibly make. ---------- Herschel's Lottery #3 - Win a Golem!
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.14 20:33:00 - [3] I've been propagating for this a bit here and there... And yes, this would be a monumental step forward in the usability of eve, it would certainly be a bigger and more useful change than the premium graphics, or ambulation, or any other change that has occurred or is planned for eve. It is a simple fact that an un-customizable UI is very poor form for a reasonably modern computer program, and once you start planning a customizable UI, the "scripting" approach is the logical conclusion. For "real world" applications, the reference to look at is definitely modo, a 3d modelling application, and for games, look no further than the enormous addon community for WOW. There is simply no imaginable negative side-effect that could justify not implementing an open/scriptable UI system for eve. Down with fake difficulty brought on by poor UI design!
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:29:00 - [4] And the macros created would would be a few orders of magitude more efficient...
Mia Morningstar	Posted - 2008.12.15 00:53:00 - [5] /signed i'd like to see that happen one day. current UI is crap.
Glencore Ramskill	Posted - 2008.12.15 02:57:00 - [6] /signed
Elisa Day Shade. Penumbra Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 08:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Mashie Saldana And the macros created would would be a few orders of magitude more efficient... Nope. Do you really think all those macro mission haulers/miners etc run a simple mouse/OCR macro? They all use a hacked python VM. Essentially, they already have this feature. CCP implementing this would only level the playing field .
Spindeln Duty.	Posted - 2008.12.15 11:19:00 - [8] I always hated those must have GUIs of other games. They look like ****, gives unfair advantage versus new/lazy players that havent sifted through the heaps of badly designed webpages where they are found, and they decrease the skill it takes to play while benefitting vegetable-state-drooling repetetive klicking/pressing of buttons. Let EvE continue to be different, because it's different in a good way.
Inmaculada Divinity	Posted - 2008.12.15 13:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Spindeln I always hated those must have GUIs of other games. They look like ***, gives unfair advantage versus new/lazy players that havent sifted through the heaps of badly designed webpages where they are found, and they decrease the skill it takes to play while benefitting vegetable-state-drooling repetetive klicking/pressing of buttons. Let EvE continue to be different, because it's different in a good way. drool* I agree turns into vegetable more drool
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.12.15 18:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Spindeln I always hated those must have GUIs of other games. They look like **, gives unfair advantage versus new/lazy players that havent sifted through the heaps of badly designed webpages where they are found, and they decrease the skill it takes to play while benefitting vegetable-state-drooling repetetive klicking/pressing of buttons. Let EvE continue to be different, because it's different in a good way. Is this desperate reaching for a GB2WOW response or are you just ****ed? Eve's GUI is terrible. It doesn't look different in a good way. ___________________ Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)

Vupri Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.16 05:20:00 - [11] Not sure if this is available yet, but I would love more keybinds for things. It's nice having key-binding drone attacks, but I cannot deploy them with a keybind. I support the idea of allowing individuals to create and share new UI's it would help alot and some good ideas may come out of it.
Olga Mokroff Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.12.16 22:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Originally by: Spindeln I always hated those must have GUIs of other games. They look like ****, gives unfair advantage versus new/lazy players that havent sifted through the heaps of badly designed webpages where they are found, and they decrease the skill it takes to play while benefitting vegetable-state-drooling repetetive klicking/pressing of buttons. Let EvE continue to be different, because it's different in a good way. Is this desperate reaching for a GB2WOW response /thread + /signed
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.07 13:23:00 - [13] Edited by: Wacktopia on 07/01/2009 13:26:32 I can think of lots of reasons why they wouldnt want to do it... - Increase in 3rd party programs that hack / keylog - Support burdon for CCP based on things not working because of 3rd party mods - Huge risk of botting and macro use - Removal of "level playing field" esp for new players or those not used to using or writing mods - "Lots of free coders" does not mean "lots of good coders with the same common goal". I personally would not be a fan of a mod that would let me visit battleclinic, get a fitting and wack it straight into game with a few clicks like you can EFT. Perhaps the mod could even buy the items in game and fly my ship around to pick them up (tongue firmly in cheek). Where's the skill in that? The API or scope for modifications would have to be carefully controlled to prevent problems. Having said all of this, customising the UI would be a great plus from my point of view. Its a great suggestion.
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.07 15:03:00 - [14] Edited by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO on 07/01/2009 15:03:17 Originally by: Wacktopia Edited by: Wacktopia on 07/01/2009 13:26:32 I can think of lots of reasons why they wouldnt want to do it... - Increase in 3rd party programs that hack / keylog - Support burdon for CCP based on things not working because of 3rd party mods - Huge risk of botting and macro use - Removal of "level playing field" esp for new players or those not used to using or writing mods - "Lots of free coders" does not mean "lots of good coders with the same common goal". I personally would not be a fan of a mod that would let me visit battleclinic, get a fitting and wack it straight into game with a few clicks like you can EFT. Perhaps the mod could even buy the items in game and fly my ship around to pick them up (tongue firmly in cheek). Where's the skill in that? The API or scope for modifications would have to be carefully controlled to prevent problems. Having said all of this, customising the UI would be a great plus from my point of view. Its a great suggestion. I think you're confusing open GUI with macros. Open GUI means GUI customization, or taking the same functionality that eve has right now and making it better, not automatic. Automatic would be a macro script. AFAIK a lot of MMOGs have XML based layouts, data access, and limited supported scripts. Giving full access to GUI layout and customization is harmless in itself. Giving full access to the data that is by default already available to the player is in itself harmless. What you are worried about is automation, and that is not in any way a valid assumption when talking about open GUI. You shouldn't assume CCP would provide such access like automatically buying/selling/mining/ratting. THAT would be the job of a macro program, which is not what an open GUI is.
Caer Isen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.01.07 17:28:00 - [15] open GUI or not, I don't care how it's done but something needs to be done because jeesus there are so many stupid things with the gui as it is hold the line
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.07 18:30:00 - [16] Edited by: Wacktopia on 07/01/2009 18:35:49 Edited by: Wacktopia on 07/01/2009 18:31:34 Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO I think you're confusing open GUI with macros. Open GUI means GUI customization, or taking the same functionality that eve has right now and making it better, not automatic. Automatic would be a macro script. AFAIK a lot of MMOGs have XML based layouts, data access, and limited supported scripts. What you are worried about is automation, and that is not in any way a valid assumption when talking about open GUI. You shouldn't assume CCP would provide such access like automatically buying/selling/mining/ratting. THAT would be the job of a macro program, which is not what an open GUI is. In a case where the GUI customisation is limited to window size, colour, position etc then your point is entirely valid. I also accept your example of an XML layout file to control the user interface being a fairly low risk as there will probably be no active code in there. I get the feeling, however, that users wanting to mod the GUI would perhaps be after a little more than simple look-and-feel tweaking? Lets suppose that CCP were to provide some kind of simple read-only access customisation access to the market area or even the chat window of the game. Perhaps to allow users to write a mod that would allow them to write click on a player in chat or an item in the market and add a custom option like "Add to my wish list" or "Search for player info online", something like that. Example Exploit: A mod could conceivably be written that reads and monitors the user list in the "local" chat and compares this against pirate kill boards or battleclinic. If a "high risk" player or "pirate" enters local then the user is instantly notified. This would provide an unfair advantage. Ok, its not a macro in the conventional definition but an exploit? I appricate that I am picking a rich example here but I think that my point is valid that providing access for customisation presents a potential risk of exploit.
Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.01.07 19:54:00 - [17] In that case you could simply not provide read access to local chat, while still allowing access to it, if that makes any sense. Allowing a string to be assigned a value doesn't necessarily allow interpretation. You could create a protected string datatype that could accept a value you give it, but can only be accessed by friend function. So say a character enters local, you can take that anonymous character and do stuff with his image and name and alliance info and all of that, without ever being allowed to analyze the data. ___________________ Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.07 22:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO You could create a protected string datatype that could accept a value you give it, but can only be accessed by friend function. That sounds fancy - lets hope the gui has VB interface so you can write to it like that :P Originally by: Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO So say a character enters local, you can take that anonymous character and do stuff with his image and name and alliance info and all of that, without ever being allowed to analyze the data. Sounds like you got it covered. Although if you has their "name" then you could do what my example said. But it was just an exameple so lets not get into that. Without going any further into this (I dont think we need to?) I hope that they can produce a gui customiser while keeping things safe. :)
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Mashie Saldana And the macros created would would be a few orders of magitude more efficient... I disagree... Skins for the UI would have no effect for macro'ing... We arent talking about modifiying the game engine or process, just the look of screen colors, transparency colors, etc...
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Wacktopia In a case where the GUI customisation is limited to window size, colour, position etc then your point is entirely valid. I also accept your example of an XML layout file to control the user interface being a fairly low risk as there will probably be no active code in there. I get the feeling, however, that users wanting to mod the GUI would perhaps be after a little more than simple look-and-feel tweaking? Lets suppose that CCP were to provide some kind of simple read-only access customisation access to the market area or even the chat window of the game. Perhaps to allow users to write a mod that would allow them to write click on a player in chat or an item in the market and add a custom option like "Add to my wish list" or "Search for player info online", something like that. Example Exploit: A mod could conceivably be written that reads and monitors the user list in the "local" chat and compares this against pirate kill boards or battleclinic. If a "high risk" player or "pirate" enters local then the user is instantly notified. This would provide an unfair advantage. Ok, its not a macro in the conventional definition but an exploit? I appricate that I am picking a rich example here but I think that my point is valid that providing access for customisation presents a potential risk of exploit. CCP and players would never allow half of the "improvements" you've suggested. Yes, because they CAN be used as exploits!!! What we are referring to is screen displays only... Like moving the shields/armour/hull/capacity display to the top of the screen, or the bottom right. change it to light blue instead of white with damage as yellow instead of red, allow the slots to be to the left of the shield display instead of the right... All these things would be client specific, based upon XML data (if file doesnt exist then use default settings, etc). We are NOT talking about any sort of data mining for t he UI, only Skins that other programs have the ability to do.... <sarcasm mode on> There would be No way to MACRO this... Oh hang on, you could get a macro to auto change colours every two minutes. WOW WHAT AN EXPLOIT!!!!! <sarcasm mode off>

Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:41:00 - [21] Edited by: Wacktopia on 16/01/2009 13:47:51 Originally by: Bo'Tox CCP and players would never allow half of the "improvements" you've suggested. Yes, because they CAN be used as exploits!!! What we are referring to is screen displays only... Like moving the shields/armour/hull/capacity display to the top of the screen, or the bottom right. change it to light blue instead of white with damage as yellow instead of red, allow the slots to be to the left of the shield display instead of the right... All these things would be client specific, based upon XML data (if file doesnt exist then use default settings, etc). We are NOT talking about any sort of data mining for t he UI, only Skins that other programs have the ability to do.... <sarcasm mode on> There would be No way to MACRO this... Oh hang on, you could get a macro to auto change colours every two minutes. WOW WHAT AN EXPLOIT!!!!! <sarcasm mode off> My point is this: Developers never intend for their APIs or customisation tools to be used for exploits but sometimes they are because someone else finds a security flaw. My examples are deliberately over-exagerated as I stated in the original post. Some people beleive that a "read only" file like an XML file or an image is completely safe because it's not executable code. The true is that a 'hacker' can sometimes embed certain character sequences or codes or data in the file that can cause the reading program to beheive abnormally or to inject executable code. It is a risk. Maybe not a huge risk, but things like this do happen. <sarcasm mode on> You're probably right. There is absolutely no history of software or games containing security holes and bugs through patches or customisation. <sarcasm mode off>
WheatGrass Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.17 02:25:00 - [22] I just did here and afterwards saw this thread. I suppose the best place to propose the idea, if it hasn't been done already, would be in the "EVE Technology and Research Center" section of the forums. The idea, if pursued, would likely set Eve quite a bit apart from other major MMOs.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.19 07:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Wacktopia <SKIP> <sarcasm mode on> You're probably right. There is absolutely no history of software or games containing security holes and bugs. <sarcasm mode off> So many flaws in your argument that I dont know where to begin. Firstly, you missed Windows as a bug..... THAT should have been obvious to anyone... Next: So, according to your logic, Winamp, by introducing Skins for their Winamp players, introduced a huge bug that everyone can exploit and lay claim to Millions of mp3 files??? (Oh, yes, as an example with worst possible result) There are countless programs that have the concept of skins... Why would introducing skins to Eve be an exploit? All we are really talking about it the ability to mod the graphics files, and locate them in a format that can be easily replaced, like in ".../eve/data/skins/default" for the default skin and a different directory for others... - Change the EULA (that you cant modify the program), that you cant modify the default programs or graphics, but using skins in their intended form is ok.. Then we can replace base default graphics files with our own... - A little bit of testing with regards to buffer overflows would handle most of any issues that could result... But lets face it: reading the directory, handling output for said read, use list of directies under 'skins' subfolder into a dropdown list, using default skin unless settting has a valid subfolder, checking files of graphics for valid graphic input (otherwise default graphics is used). Easy, Simple to implement and good for the game as a whole. I'm not saying that a buggy program wont have bugs - Duh! The intention is to adequetely test any portion that could have issues. Modifying graphics files should be allowed under the EULA, as long as you dont modify the default graphics files... so somewhere to put the Modified files needs to inserted into the program. So a litle bit of forethought before posting mindless drivel would be appreciated... Some people at least WANT to have an intelligent, thought out conversation..... PS: I'm one of them and your not. I assume Bo'Tox is one of them too but never met him so don't quote me on that....!) Regards, Jason Brisbane
Cypher V Minmatar Ore Mongers	Posted - 2009.01.21 11:34:00 - [24] No, no and NO! CCP say that it would give rise to "whoever has the best GUI wins". I agree. I do not want someone to have a better PvP GUI setup than I, and I'm sure none of you do either. Besides, wait until March 10th, and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised What I would agree to however is an in-game fitting tool. IEFT (In Eve Fitting Tool) anyone?
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Cypher V No, no and NO! CCP say that it would give rise to "whoever has the best GUI wins". I agree. I agree as well.
Wacktopia Infinity Miners Union Eych Four Eks Zero Ahr	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:06:00 - [26] Edited by: Wacktopia on 27/01/2009 11:12:44 Edited by: Wacktopia on 27/01/2009 11:06:16 :) Please read and think before quoting this. :) Note the use of intelligent conversation below :) Also note freedom of speech :) Re-read the above and then continue Originally by: Darkeen So many flaws in your argument that I dont know where to begin. That's your opinion, I guess. And you did begin... Originally by: Darkeen Firstly, you missed Windows as a bug..... THAT should have been obvious to anyone... Fair enough - Windows does seem to kop the nastiest bugs, or is in the press for it at least. The point I wanted to make with this example is that it was an exploit that came in though a picture file - something which people do not associate with a security breach normally. The point I was making was that sometimes an innocent or basic graphics object can present a security flaw. Hopefully I do not need to further connect this example to the topic in discussion. Hint: The use of the word "example" above means that it is an example and not a direct comparison. I am totally aware of the differences between this example and a WinAmp skin. Originally by: Darkeen Next: So, according to your logic, Winamp, by introducing Skins for their Winamp players, introduced a huge bug that everyone can exploit and lay claim to Millions of mp3 files??? (Oh, yes, as an example with worst possible result) Effectively, yes. This could be possible. Im not saying it has happened or will happen but simply that it could. People often play down the concept of security and bugs because they beleive that it "simply couldnt happen to them" or think "A winamp skin that hacks your PC, that's sounds so crazy it could never ever happen". Originally by: Darkeen There are countless programs that have the concept of skins... Why would introducing skins to Eve be an exploit? It probably wouldnt but, like I said, it could do. My other point was that it could make the game unfair if certain skins gave an advantage or disadvantage based upon speed of interaction or interface. I am also not saying that CCP shouldnt make an open GUI for this reason, merely speculating on why they may have chosen not to. Originally by: Darkeen All we are really talking about it the ability to mod the graphics files, and locate them in a format that can be easily replaced, like in ".../eve/data/skins/default" for the default skin and a different directory for others... - Change the EULA (that you cant modify the program), that you cant modify the default programs or graphics, but using skins in their intended form is ok.. Then we can replace base default graphics files with our own... - A little bit of testing with regards to buffer overflows would handle most of any issues that could result... But lets face it: reading the directory, handling output for said read, use list of directies under 'skins' subfolder into a dropdown list, using default skin unless settting has a valid subfolder, checking files of graphics for valid graphic input (otherwise default graphics is used). Easy, Simple to implement and good for the game as a whole. Yeah, I agree with this. Originally by: Darkeen I'm not saying that a buggy program wont have bugs - Duh! The intention is to adequetely test any portion that could have issues. Modifying graphics files should be allowed under the EULA, as long as you dont modify the default graphics files... so somewhere to put the Modified files needs to inserted into the program. Fair points. Originally by: Darkeen So a litle bit of forethought before posting mindless drivel would be appreciated... Some people at least WANT to have an intelligent, thought out conversation..... PS: I'm one of them and your not. I assume Bo'Tox is one of them too but never met him so don't quote me on that....!) Im not sure what you're saying here? I think we have both made valid points. I'm also not post


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