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Phlegyas Styx
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:01:00 -
[1]
Okay so I've decided to dabble into ECM and am flying a BB right now learning the ins and outs while not causing to much of a chip out of the bank. I understand the tactics and the ideas behind flying an ECM ship, but one thing still puzzles me.
How is the jam decided if it takes place. Is it purely my ships ECM modules beat out the other ships sensor strenght or is there a formula involved in the jamming or am I completely off the mark?
Any productive help will be greatly appreciated.
~Phlyegys Styx
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7shining7one7
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 14/12/2008 08:13:34
jam strength vs sensor strength of the ship and also ewar skills affect the chance of a jam, so yes it's chance based but the chances with ecm modules are so big that you can get perma jammed quite easily unless you fit eccm mods which increase your sensor strength.
so yes, it's chance based, yes there is a formula involved and yes the formula involves at its base the jam strength of the ecm module vs the sensor strength of the ship which the mathematical formula used then uses to compute some percentage of chance to jam which i am not quite aware of.
vs caldari ships: gravimetric ecm.
vs gallente ships: magnetometric ecm.
vs amarr ships: radar eccm.
vs minmatarr ships: ladar eccm.
then there's the multispec ecm's which effect every sensor type to a smaller degree of effect and you can then use that to charge all ships, bear in mind that they function less efficiently than the focused ecm modules for a particular sensor type.
i don't know the exact specific details of the particular mathematical formula used, but i'm sure someone will pop in and write that up very soon. but atleast now you know the elements involved in the formula. and i hope you found the reply helpful. good luck.
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Suitonia
Gallente
interimo
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:13:00 -
[3]
The chance to jam is  Quote:
(your jam strength) / (target's sensor strength) x100
.
So if your target has a 22 sensor strength (Megathron for example) and your jammer has a strength of 10 of the right race, in this case magnetometric, then you have a 45.45% chance of jamming him with a single jammer.
If your jam strength exceeds their sensor strength then you will perma jam them. using the same example, our 10 strength magnetometric jammer will permenatly jam a Tristan.
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Phlegyas Styx
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:15:00 -
[4]
The reply was very helpful, thank you. But with that another question popped into mind. I've been using multiple ECM modules on a single target, a combination of multi specs and racial specifics. Do the module strengths stack or is just one of the modules used to compute the jam?
Thanks again
~Phlegyas Styx
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7shining7one7
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 14/12/2008 08:20:46
Originally by: Phlegyas Styx
The reply was very helpful, thank you. But with that another question popped into mind. I've been using multiple ECM modules on a single target, a combination of multi specs and racial specifics. Do the module strengths stack or is just one of the modules used to compute the jam?
Thanks again
~Phlegyas Styx
i actually don't know that for absolute certain but by logical deduction i would say that if they are used on the same target their effect would stack in the 100% 80% 50% effect range as is the case with other modules except areppers and sboosters.
so in short: yes with about 90% probability.
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Phlegyas Styx
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:33:00 -
[6]
So presuming that the ECM Modules stack, which I am still uncertain of, the equation would look something like this I presume?
E = ECM Strength
S = Ship sensor strength
[ (E x 1.00)+(E x 0.8)+(etc)/(S)] x 100 = Probability
Also still looking for clarification on whether or not ECM Modules strength stack on a single target.
~Phlegyas Styx
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.14 08:59:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/12/2008 09:00:08
Originally by: 7shining7one7
i actually don't know that for absolute certain but by logical deduction i would say that if they are used on the same target their effect would stack in the 100% 80% 50% effect range as is the case with other modules except areppers and sboosters.
so in short: yes with about 90% probability.
You are correct about only one thing in that entire post: "i actually don't know that for absolute certain".
ECM does not stack like other modules, each ECM module activated on a target gives you a separate roll of the dice to see if you jam. If you have two modules, each with a 50% chance to jam, you roll twice at 50% odds, for a total jam chance of 75%. The correct formula, assuming all jammers are equal:
Jam % = {1 - (chance to fail to jam)^(# of jammers)} x 100 = {1- (1 -(ECM strength / target sensor strength))^(# of jammers)} x 100
For N different jammers:
Jam % = {1 - (1 - (Jammer #1 / target sensor strength)) * (1 - ((jammer #2 / target sensor strength)) ... * (1 - ((jammer #N / target sensor strength)) } x 100
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Phlegyas Styx
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:10:00 -
[8]
Thank you very much for the helpful replies. I do believe that all my questions have been answered.
~Phlegyas Styx
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BiggestT
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Jam % = {1 - (chance to fail to jam)^(# of jammers)} x 100 = {1- (1 -(ECM strength / target sensor strength))^(# of jammers)} x 100
For N different jammers:
Jam % = {1 - (1 - (Jammer #1 / target sensor strength)) * (1 - ((jammer #2 / target sensor strength)) ... * (1 - ((jammer #N / target sensor strength)) } x 100
This is indeed correct.
Notice the chance being (1-x) This means that the jam chance can never be 100%,
as the next variable cannot be 0 (I think, or at least its very improbable).
This is why the concept of perma-jamming is actually a myth (correct me if im wrong).
EVE history
t2 precisions |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.14 09:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: BiggestT
Notice the chance being (1-x) This means that the jam chance can never be 100%,
as the next variable cannot be 0 (I think, or at least its very improbable).
This is why the concept of perma-jamming is actually a myth (correct me if im wrong).
It could, if (jammer strength / target sensor strength) is greater than 1. On low-sensor-strength ships, this is possible. You can, however, get it very close to 100% even on higher-strength ships, to the point that the target will be dead long before you can plausibly expect to fail a jam cycle.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.12.15 02:05:00 -
[11]
Jammers do not stack per the traditional understanding of stacking. Each jammer operates independently of the others and conducts it's own seperate jam roll every cycle. As such, the assumption that having two jammers that jam 50% of the time each would result in a true perma jam - that is a 100% probability of jamming is incorrect. Instead the two jammers achieve a 75% cumulative chance to jam.
There was a time when jammers stacked, where the total jam strength of all jammers was added together against a target, but this proved to be incredibly powerful.
Also, an interesting thing to note is that it's rarely better to bring anything other than racials to a fight, unless you're using an oddball solo fitting on a ship like the scorpion where you might not be comfortable trusting entirely in ECM to keep you alive. One correct racial jammer and one incorrect racial jammer achieves a better overall chance to jam than a pair of multispec jammers.
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Lea Re
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.15 02:27:00 -
[12]
actually...
it's better to bring multis in small gang warfare (ie. when you're facing 2-4 random enemies) + mebbe 1-2 gravs to jam other jammers ;]. otherwise racials.
to make the calculation simpler there's an equation designed by Bernoulli to calculate the k successes probability in n tries... very useful formula for all jammers out there
which u can use to find out various probabilities using diferent jammers etc.
P(n,k) = (n over k)*p^k*q^(n-k)
where
P is probability
n - number of attempts
k - number of successes
p - chance of success (your jam strength per 1 jammer divided by sensor strength)
q - (1 - chance of success)
(n over k) = n! / (n-k)!
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2008.12.15 12:24:00 -
[13]
ECM jam calculation is about the only practical use ive had of reading those stochastics courses req. for signal processsing. oh yeah and for signal processing as well.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2008.12.15 12:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lea Re
actually...
it's better to bring multis in small gang warfare (ie. when you're facing 2-4 random enemies) + mebbe 1-2 gravs to jam other jammers ;]. otherwise racials.
to make the calculation simpler there's an equation designed by Bernoulli to calculate the k successes probability in n tries... very useful formula for all jammers out there
which u can use to find out various probabilities using diferent jammers etc.
P(n,k) = (n over k)*p^k*q^(n-k)
where
P is probability
n - number of attempts
k - number of successes
p - chance of success (your jam strength per 1 jammer divided by sensor strength)
q - (1 - chance of success)
(n over k) = n! / (n-k)!
That does assume you don't want to take advantage of the greater range afforded by racials.
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