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Heavy Drones are Large Weapons

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Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:43:00 - [1] With the recent missile and web changes, large weapons such as Neutron Blaster Cannons and Torpedos cannot deal very much damage to frigates and cruisers if they are moving at all. Some, none at all. Heavy drones which are generally considered on the scale of large weapons in terms of use and damage amount can hit moving frigates and cruisers quite easily. The only way to avoid damage is to out run them. I understand that technically a drone might do more damage cause it's not a huge turret but a smaller and maneuverable vessel should be more accurate. But this is a game and balance is certainly an issue. Heavy drones can kill smaller ships much more easily than Large Weapons. /whine /truth -Bulba The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:45:00 - [2] heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:47:00 - [3] Heavy drones are the equivalent of a medium turret, not a large. Large turret, that's the Fighters...
Jon Malkovich	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:48:00 - [4] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not overheating dumbass
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council.	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Jon Malkovich Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not overheating dumbass should train reading comprehension to lvl 2, it helps alot Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:49:00 - [6] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not Okay bringing in arguements that have nothing to do with ability to hit small quick moving ships is a bad idea. Drones aggro back automatically and do damage when the ship itself is jammed. Guns do not. Drones do max damage in all ranges of their maximum control distance. Guns have optimals and falloffs. There are more truths but these have NOTHING to do with the actual argument i posed. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
NoNah	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:50:00 - [7] Edited by: NoNah on 15/12/2008 01:53:49 1. Drones cannot be compared to turrets and missiles. If they were to be they're the only tree that cannot sport >1k dps on any subcap to my knowledge. 2. Heavy drones have a signature resolution of 125 and should thus be considered a cruisersized weapon rather than a battleship one - should such a comparrison be forced. 3. Drones are not only destructable(as are missiles) but they are targetable, jammable and random when controlled. 4. Drones have the highest cost per average use in the game. The list can go on, but it's a start. Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not Okay bringing in arguements that have nothing to do with ability to hit small quick moving ships is a bad idea. Drones aggro back automatically and do damage when the ship itself is jammed. Guns do not. Drones do max damage in all ranges of their maximum control distance. Guns have optimals and falloffs. There are more truths but these have NOTHING to do with the actual argument i posed. Drones do only aggro back at initial aggression if the offender is within range. This is easy to exploit and generally pilots aggro back with turrets and missiles aswell. If the ship is jammed, the jammer is in a majority of cases outside the controldistance. Drones have optimal, tracking and falloff aswell. They deal far from max damage at all times within their controlrange. Fact is, considering drone control range as their optimal means the average turret will score a better average performance percentage than any drone. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 848313
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:51:00 - [8] Originally by: CrayC Heavy drones are the equivalent of a medium turret, not a large. Large turret, that's the Fighters... Wait... 5 heavy drones cannot be used on any ship that also uses medium turrets as it's main weapon source, with exception of the ishtar. Large turrets are used on battleships, and Fighters are used in capital ships... None of these match up in that way... The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Naibasak	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:52:00 - [9] not really, you admit yourself that its more to do with balance than logic, and thatÆs a reason for not balancing any further
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:55:00 - [10] Originally by: NoNah 1. Drones cannot be compared to turrets and missiles. If they were to be they're the only tree that cannot sport >1k dps on any subcap to my knowledge. 2. Heavy drones have a signature resolution of 125 and should thus be considered a cruisersized weapon rather than a battleship one - should such a comparrison be forced. 3. Drones are not only destructable(as are missiles) but they are targetable, jammable and random when controlled. 4. Drones have the highest cost per average use in the game. The list can go on, but it's a start. The only reason they don't go >1k damage is that not too many ships have bonuses to them AND they dont' have damage mods. I am simply talking about their ability to spit out lots of damage especially on the ship like a dominix and hit small fast moving ships. The dominix is now the best battleship for killing small fast moving ships, while still being able to do well vs larger ships. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Naibasak not really, you admit yourself that its more to do with balance than logic, and thatÆs a reason for not balancing any further I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. First of all, I'm saying that drones should be more able to hit small drones by physics, but if everything followed physics in this game, a lot of problems would arise. -Bulba The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
NoNah	Posted - 2008.12.15 01:58:00 - [12] Edited by: NoNah on 15/12/2008 02:04:36 Edited by: NoNah on 15/12/2008 02:01:07 Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: CrayC Heavy drones are the equivalent of a medium turret, not a large. Large turret, that's the Fighters... Wait... 5 heavy drones cannot be used on any ship that also uses medium turrets as it's main weapon source, with exception of the ishtar. Large turrets are used on battleships, and Fighters are used in capital ships... None of these match up in that way... That's an odd way of looking at it. All comparable attributes on a drone suggests it's a cruisersized weaponry rather than battleship. Signature resolution the most important one obviously. Fitting is honestly a very poor way of deciding it. Only battleships can field 8 medium guns. That would mean they are battleshipsized. A thorax used to be able to field 5 heavy drones, so did the myrmid, eos, vexor etc etc. EDIT: OH, and I nearly forgot. Cruise missiles are the only frigsized weapon able to deal damage at over 249km. Not to mention their 600+ alphas per launcher. Originally by: Nerogk Shorn The only reason they don't go >1k damage is that not too many ships have bonuses to them AND they dont' have damage mods. I am simply talking about their ability to spit out lots of damage especially on the ship like a dominix and hit small fast moving ships. The dominix is now the best battleship for killing small fast moving ships, while still being able to do well vs larger ships. So your suggestion here is to implement more drone based battleships, give them drone damage upgrades so they can deal above 1k dps with it, and then make them go slower - IE comparable to cruise missiles? Because I can def. live with that, well atleast from the aspect of being a domipilot. Not the aspect of an EVE-player. =( Parrots, commence! Postcount: 512674
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.15 02:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: CrayC Heavy drones are the equivalent of a medium turret, not a large. Large turret, that's the Fighters... Wait... 5 heavy drones cannot be used on any ship that also uses medium turrets as it's main weapon source, with exception of the ishtar. Large turrets are used on battleships, and Fighters are used in capital ships... None of these match up in that way... You never said anything about using 5 Heavies in a cruiser. You figured that Heavy Drones were large weapons and should get nerfed because they are too good at hitting smaller classes than "large". I simply said that, in that regard, heavies are considered cruiser-sized weapons, as they can hit small, medium and large targets without too much of a penalty. Fighters have trouble with smaller ships, exactly like Large Turrets. Don't make this more complicated than it is. Heavy Drones, if you HAVE to compare them to a turret size, are Medium Turrets, not Large.
Shirley Serious Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.12.15 02:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I am simply talking about their ability to spit out lots of damage especially on the ship like a dominix and hit small fast moving ships. The dominix is now the best battleship for killing small fast moving ships, while still being able to do well vs larger ships. Dominix is the drone battleship. All the drone ships are very good at killing smaller fast-moving ships, and are good at larger targets too. Yes. Yes, I am.

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2008.12.15 02:53:00 - [15] Moved to " Ships & Modules " forum. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2008.12.15 02:59:00 - [16] Does it matter? I mean, Drone users don't have any t2 modules for our ships, and no damage mods, Drones are popped easily, and take time to get from one target to another.
Haakelen Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.15 03:04:00 - [17] Jesus, go away. As if drones aren't nerfed enough as it is.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.12.15 03:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Drones do max damage in all ranges of their maximum control distance. Guns have optimals and falloffs. No they don't. All drones also have optimals and fallofs, just like turrets. Mobile drones do zero damage until they've reached their target, which especially with heavies can take a while. Sentries otoh, are quite limited with their various optimals/fallofs and damage. No drones can shoot effectively to 150km.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.15 03:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Jon Malkovich Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 heavy drones are also destroyable, guns are not overheating dumbass Yes, the guys you are shooting at can overheat your weapons!
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2008.12.15 03:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn With the recent missile and web changes, large weapons such as Neutron Blaster Cannons and Torpedos cannot deal very much damage to frigates and cruisers if they are moving at all. Some, none at all. Heavy drones which are generally considered on the scale of large weapons in terms of use and damage amount can hit moving frigates and cruisers quite easily. The only way to avoid damage is to out run them. I understand that technically a drone might do more damage cause it's not a huge turret but a smaller and maneuverable vessel should be more accurate. But this is a game and balance is certainly an issue. Heavy drones can kill smaller ships much more easily than Large Weapons. /whine /truth -Bulba If your in a small ship getting hit by heavy drones, no amount of nerfing will ever save you dude, just quit now. Even a cruiser sized ship can easily get away from most, if not all heavy drones.
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:35:00 - [21] Originally by: NoNah That's an odd way of looking at it. All comparable attributes on a drone suggests it's a cruisersized weaponry rather than battleship. Signature resolution the most important one obviously. Fitting is honestly a very poor way of deciding it. Only battleships can field 8 medium guns. That would mean they are battleshipsized. A thorax used to be able to field 5 heavy drones, so did the myrmid, eos, vexor etc etc. EDIT: OH, and I nearly forgot. Cruise missiles are the only frigsized weapon able to deal damage at over 249km. Not to mention their 600+ alphas per launcher. Though, I completely disagree with all of these arguement and view them as fallacies and circular reasoning, one of your previous points is the only valid one. It so happens that this point does indeed make your arguement about heavy drones being cruiser sized weapons. It was that they have a sig radius of 125m. I shouldn't have ignored it. So, I rescind my claim that heavy drones are large weapons. However what I do want to point out is this: Originally by: Sebea If your in a small ship getting hit by heavy drones, no amount of nerfing will ever save you dude, just quit now. Even a cruiser sized ship can easily get away from most, if not all heavy drones. You can't really out track heavy drones like you can with guns as the fire is not all coming from one point. So the only way to avoid damage is to outrun them. This makes them harder to defend against even more so than medium guns. This is essentially my point. Heavy drones are harder to defend against than large or even medium weapons, with the exception of out running them. -Bulba The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn This is essentially my point. Heavy drones are harder to defend against than large or even medium weapons, with the exception of out running them. Do you have trouble getting your sub-BB size ship going faster than 375m/s?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2008.12.15 04:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn With the recent missile and web changes, large weapons such as Neutron Blaster Cannons and Torpedos cannot deal very much damage to frigates and cruisers if they are moving at all. Some, none at all. Heavy drones which are generally considered on the scale of large weapons in terms of use and damage amount can hit moving frigates and cruisers quite easily. The only way to avoid damage is to out run them. I understand that technically a drone might do more damage cause it's not a huge turret but a smaller and maneuverable vessel should be more accurate. But this is a game and balance is certainly an issue. Heavy drones can kill smaller ships much more easily than Large Weapons. /whine /truth -Bulba It seems that there is a hard limit to the intelligence of players who choose Caldari as their race. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
NoNah	Posted - 2008.12.15 05:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn This is essentially my point. Heavy drones are harder to defend against than large or even medium weapons, with the exception of out running them. -Bulba Aye, sorry for those arguments, they were rather sarcastic. They're meant to be circular and fallacious and just there to prove a point. As out-tracking it's actually pretty easy. coming to a complete hault does this pretty well. You'll take a decent volley as they get close, and you'll random potshots, but stay pretty safe from general fire. There are some slightly more hardcore tactical applications of the same idea, but they're darn hard to pull off and I've only met some who can pull it off. What's important to notice here is that signature plays a huge role. if you're a mere 20m and keep a decent pace your damage taken will be severly reduced. granted not nullified. An MWD completely elimnates this, but on the other hand you should rather easily be able to stay at above that 1.2 km /s or so it takes to keep distance. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 68423
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.15 05:10:00 - [25] 2 words that makes heavy drones useless and completely obliterate your opponent's weapons "Smart Bombs" .... let me shoot out your guns/launchers then we will talk about nerfing drones even more..... oh and .. drones have to travel... XD...
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.15 06:08:00 - [26] Heavy drones don't hit small frigs all that well... it took a set of medium drones a good while to do any damage to my interceptor the other night, though I had a MWD and the guy had me scrammed... so it was game over no matter what for me. I don't think of Heavy drones as "large" weapons... they only add about 300 dps on most ships, and that's about equivalent to 5 medium weapons. I've rarely had trouble avoiding damage from drones, even lights as a nano pilot before the nerf, and it's not so much harder now that I would cry "NERF!!!". Really, I had to check the date on this topic since I've seen it at least 3-4 times in the last two years or so, and it's never a really good argument. ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.15 06:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: Naibasak not really, you admit yourself that its more to do with balance than logic, and thatÆs a reason for not balancing any further I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. First of all, I'm saying that drones should be more able to hit small drones by physics, but if everything followed physics in this game, a lot of problems would arise. -Bulba Indeed, a battleship would actually rip the $hit out of anything smaller. EVE history t2 precisions
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.12.15 07:53:00 - [28] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Nerogk Shorn Originally by: Naibasak not really, you admit yourself that its more to do with balance than logic, and thatÆs a reason for not balancing any further I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. First of all, I'm saying that drones should be more able to hit small drones by physics, but if everything followed physics in this game, a lot of problems would arise. -Bulba Indeed, a battleship would actually rip the $hit out of anything smaller. Yeah, for sure. I've played Freespace 2, and while i'm sure even that fighter defense is dumbed down, getting hit with the flak and point defense lasers of those bigger cruisers really makes you learn not to go anywhere near them... I have noticed that stopping is the easiest way to reduce damage taken from heavy drones if you are small enough. Not really sure what % of damage you'll take sitting still. After about 500mps you can basically manually orbit around and through the drone blob to basically take very little damage by outtracking them, but it's much more complicated than normal orbiting generally. And to the response to the intelligence of players who chose caldari as a race: I started this game so long ago that Caldari and the other races have changed about four times since then. Not to mention all you had to go on in choosing a race was a three sentence blurb about the ideals of each race. If you want to insult someone, at least bring up some hard facts so he actually feels bad about himself. Bring up his mother once or twice as well. -Bulba The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
jockodiounto	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:15:00 - [29] Hi guys. This thread seems to have a PvP leaning, however I have been wondering if Heavy Drones are in fact viable offensive weapons during PvE against cruiser sized targets and upwards?? I realise the speed of these devices can be an issue, but for close orbiting HACs?? I don't mean to hijack here, but I was wondering what the general consensus was??
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.15 14:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Nerogk Shorn With the recent missile and web changes, large weapons such as Neutron Blaster Cannons and Torpedos cannot deal very much damage to frigates and cruisers if they are moving at all. Some, none at all. Heavy drones which are generally considered on the scale of large weapons in terms of use and damage amount can hit moving frigates and cruisers quite easily. The only way to avoid damage is to out run them. I understand that technically a drone might do more damage cause it's not a huge turret but a smaller and maneuverable vessel should be more accurate. But this is a game and balance is certainly an issue. Heavy drones can kill smaller ships much more easily than Large Weapons. /whine /truth -Bulba It seems that there is a hard limit to the intelligence of players who choose Caldari as their race. Hey!

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