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New loan request: up to 5B, uncollateralized @ 10%

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Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.13 12:51:00 - [1] - Quote Old loan request thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1082049#post1082049 We just got a massive boost to production and are sitting at about 120 T1 slots and 10 T2 slots, but many are left unfilled and we are trying to fill them with rig production and external orders. We are also trying to start up our PI again. Our current assets are: 1.3B owed upon completion of manufacturing job, freighter worth 1.4B, about 3.8B cash/sell orders, large POS with many assembly arrays and labs (total about 700M in the POS). Total about 7.2B overall. Current liabilities: 1B loan @ 10% interest, uncollateralized (lender is not concerned about our taking additional debt); have to PLEX this account @ 0.5B Net: 5.7B. Over 8 days we've earned 1.8B. The loan would go towards: 1.5B: 24 hour deposits of PI @ 50M/day (over several characters; doing two tiers of manufacturing ending with the highest level; stable market if flexible about what's produced) 1.5B: T2 rigs having 10 in production and 10 for sale at once (may look for retailer for faster turnover) 2B: miscellaneous rig production for us or build slots for external orders (have many offers but can't do anything without more cash) The PI alone would pay the interest on this for 30 days in only 10. We would want a rolling option unless in a month we somehow reach a size where our money isn't being used. If you want more info, let us know.
Bunnehrawr Rawr Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities 1	Posted - 2012.04.13 15:13:00 - [2] - Quote you have to wait for your first loan to end before even attempting to get a 2nd... just saying :)
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 0	Posted - 2012.04.13 15:27:00 - [3] - Quote your looking for a massive expansion little over a week after your last loan isnt very smart. almost seems like your trying to get the isk to cover the first loans amount + interest by taking out another larger loan.
Barakach R-ISK Shadow Operations. 43	Posted - 2012.04.13 15:31:00 - [4] - Quote You may want to include your previous loan info into this post as you already have 1bil out-standing, not to mention your new loan is MUCH larger than the old one. Not trying to be negative, just saying you need to place all the facts up-front. If I was the type to get into a loan, I would love to have a screen shot of your daily revenue for the past 2 weeks as it is fairly safe to post publicly and could reduce the barrier.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.13 16:20:00 - [5] - Quote I did include a link to the previous loan request as well as mentioning it among our liabilities. Yeah, it's a large loan request, we don't need the full 5B though. But we could utilize it. We're at a point where we have the tools (production alts getting trained, T2 skills on one character being completed, assembly arrays, freighter) and the time (semester's ending) to make a large expansion work. Once I'm home I'll post a screenshot of total assets, though unfortunately we just bought for a build. I suppose we can put all the goods and the freighter in a corp hangar and screenshot it with the wallet. I'll also get the current big customer owing 1.3B to post here. Would that work? It'd definitely demonstrate that we have the ISK to cover a 1.1B loan repayment. Since there's always money going in and out I'm not sure how to clearly demonstrate daily revenue, though.
Barakach R-ISK Shadow Operations. 43	Posted - 2012.04.13 16:42:00 - [6] - Quote I apologize for my horrible reading comprehension. I exercise my right to blame Friday.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.13 23:23:00 - [7] - Quote Here are screenshots of our wallets and sales and our current assets. http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5701/20120413231549.jpg http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/232/20120413231704.jpg They currently add up to about 4.7B. To clarify, the 1.3B owed us is actually 2.6B order with a 1.3B advance.
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 05:27:00 - [8] - Quote from that screen shot 95% of your current assests is in those tornados . now I produce and sell tornados in jita to. what I cant understand is why your stock is still there after 25 hours mines always gone after 3-4 you've been online to take that screen shot so why not adjust your order. other question is why no screen shot of your next tornado production run and the minerals for it?
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 10:41:00 - [9] - Quote Er, it's a fraction of our assets, a lot of what's currently for sale. I was waiting for a higher price but that does not seem rational as we're definitely losing on opportunity value now (I was expecting them to increase faster, I suppose). They're not the greatest bang for the buck, we're focusing on higher margin items.
Arugas Koken Peregrine Guard 15	Posted - 2012.04.14 12:26:00 - [10] - Quote Would like to invest 1B.

Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 12:41:00 - [11] - Quote 1B received. Terms: 10%/month, interest paid on the 14th (mountain time), repaid before applying for further bonds
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 14:31:00 - [12] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: Er, it's a fraction of our assets, a lot of what's currently for sale. I was waiting for a higher price but that does not seem rational as we're definitely losing on opportunity value now (I was expecting them to increase faster, I guess? I'm not sure what I was thinking). They're not the greatest bang for the buck, we're focusing on higher margin items. thats hardly a fraction that 1 sale covers 1.5 billion in what your claim your assets are. so that 1 line is 20% of your total value. which if you have another batch of 15 cooking which you should if you could afford to sit on those on the market then thats about 800-900 billion in minerals/tornados which would mean nearly 30% of your assests are that one ship. and thats not even taking into account the bpo which would be close to another 10% . so thats a very large fraction your talking about. also if you struggle to shift high volume items like tornados where hundreds are traded a day in jita. how are you going to cope shifting very low volume items like t2 mods?
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 14:39:00 - [13] - Quote There was no struggling, it was a poor economic choice. The price of Tornadoes fluctuates substantially but didn't rise fast enough to justify sitting on the Tornadoes, as I was doing. 25% is not 95%. BPOs are often a poor choice and end up with you trapped in a market that you shouldn't be in. At current profit levels it's really hard to justify a 750M investment that's worth 12M/day (the cost of 8 runs of Tornado BPC)
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 15:15:00 - [14] - Quote 95% was the value of the goods for sale. and I dont understand your logic even with a BPO your never trapped in a market you buy it use it to make money then sell it if needs be. a tornado line producing from a BPO now even with low margins is still worth 1.1 billion a month so the bpo has paid for itself in 3 weeks. seems your poor economic choices are limited to not shifting a stock of tornados. a BPO in eve is an investment its price fairly stable so you can almost always get your money back. BPC's are just wasted money and wasted profit and when your trying to compete in a market with BPC's you'll always lose out see all the complaints about the t2 BPOs. your running a production corp and keep seeing out investment from the public and offering no collateral when the first thing you should be doing is looking for a market to get into seriously getting a BPO and getting it locked down so your investings have some coverage. yet what you seem to be doing is skimming between markets with no really aim or goal. seeking investor to cover your experiments.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 15:50:00 - [15] - Quote Cost of 8 BPCs a day: 12M Cost of 1 BPO: 750M Daily profit as a proportion of assets when that makes sense: 0.016. If I earned 1.6% of my assets per day then a Tornado BPO would make sense. I make several times that. The opportunity cost of a BPO often exceeds the accounting cost of a BPC, this is one such case. There's nothing aimless about my activities; I respond as the market shifts.
Liberty Eternal Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 42	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:16:00 - [16] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: Cost of 8 BPCs a day: 12M Cost of 1 BPO: 750M Daily profit as a proportion of assets when that makes sense: 0.016. If we earned 1.6% of my assets per day then a Tornado BPO would make sense. We make several times that. The opportunity cost of a BPO often exceeds the accounting cost of a BPC, this is one such case. There's nothing aimless about my activities though I respond as the market shifts rather than investing heavily in something. Then why are you producing in a market that requires large set-up costs and BPO investment? You can easily choose markets with a much lower opportunity cost in BPOs which nonetheless allow you to turnover similar levels of goods.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:29:00 - [17] - Quote Liberty Eternal wrote: Lesath Scorpii wrote: Cost of 8 BPCs a day: 12M Cost of 1 BPO: 750M Daily profit as a proportion of assets when that makes sense: 0.016. If we earned 1.6% of my assets per day then a Tornado BPO would make sense. We make several times that. The opportunity cost of a BPO often exceeds the accounting cost of a BPC, this is one such case. There's nothing aimless about my activities though I respond as the market shifts rather than investing heavily in something. Then why are you producing in a market that requires large set-up costs and BPO investment? You can easily choose markets with a much lower opportunity cost in BPOs which nonetheless allow you to turnover similar levels of goods. BPCs work fine for Tornadoes, and most other things. And I'm in several markets, including rigs which have a very low set-up cost and BPO investment (and even then, BPCs make good sense at 3k/unit!). And selling things to you in massive quantities.
Kyr Evotorin Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos 6	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:36:00 - [18] - Quote I think you have some people mad at you. Keep up the good work. The mere fact that you are trying to work the Eve market is helpful to the whole of Eve. Just a friendly face. Don't have enough personal capital to justify any kind of loan :D
Liberty Eternal Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 42	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:41:00 - [19] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: BPCs work fine for Tornadoes, and most other things. And I'm in several markets, including rigs which have a very low set-up cost and BPO investment (and even then, BPCs make good sense at 3k/unit!). And selling things to you in massive quantities. Yes, I would say that BPCs are fine too, but I say that as a marketeer not as a manufacturer so pinch of salt and all that. I can confirm that you've done a good job manufacturing goods for me so far [now I've realised that you're Aurel Svenson's corp-mate!] and I hope you get your expansion up and running. If you send me a full API for yourself and Aurel I will run a private audit on you and consider increasing my exposure by one or two billion. However, I do have concerns with your current finance model. Raising loans is fine for expanding but it is a much more sensitive issue to take advance payments from traders. This model makes it all too easy for potential scammers as it is possible to go to a whole bunch of traders and take advance payments from them [without telling them that you already have advance payments from other traders], then default on the whole lot, taking the deposits and 5 bil loan isk in one swoop. So my question is how essential are these advance payments to your business model? Could you replace them with something more secure such as a deposit to a third-party [to be forfeited if the order is cancelled]?
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:56:00 - [20] - Quote I suppose it depends on the size of the order. I could not have done your latest order without that - and this probably means that the order is too big. I think you're right, I'll return to only requiring it from people who've changed their mind on an order in the past or if the item is not likely to at least break even in salvaged sales in Jita; on your current order I would be out hundreds of millions, for instance. And I'll limit that to 100M total ISK in advances so the large majority of my debt is public in MD and limit order sizes appropriately. How does that sound?

Liberty Eternal Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 42	Posted - 2012.04.14 17:16:00 - [21] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: I suppose it depends on the size of the order. I could not have done your latest order without that - and this probably means that the order is too big. I think you're right, I'll return to only requiring it from people who've changed their mind on an order in the past or if the item is not likely to at least break even in salvaged sales in Jita; on your current order I would be out hundreds of millions, for instance. And I'll limit that to 100M total ISK in advances so the large majority of my debt is public in MD and limit order sizes appropriately. How does that sound? I think that makes a much better arrangement for your trader partners if that kind of contracting is going to be a big part of your growth strategy. However, your proposal does leave your business at risk and restricts your ability to take orders from new or unknown traders. A system where you covered yourself by having the trader leave a deposit with a trusted 3rd-party might make a lot more sense and make for smoother business relations from your perspective. In terms of cashflow, it is much better to consolidate all of your cash flow needs in the form of one large, visible loan that is out there in public. In MD, you can't afford to alienate a single potential customer Now, if you send your full api over for Aurel and yourself, I'll do a private audit and put 1-2 bil in if it checks out ok.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 17:24:00 - [22] - Quote Kyr Evotorin wrote: I think you have some people mad at you. Keep up the good work. The mere fact that you are trying to work the Eve market is helpful to the whole of Eve. Just a friendly face. Don't have enough personal capital to justify any kind of loan :D Appreciate it. :) I don't think they're mad, there's just a general obsession with BPOs and opportunity cost is a problem for some... I try to educate with regards to how awesome BPCs are and the importance of opportunity cost in running a business, I'm happy to grab a few converts. API sent.
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 18:30:00 - [23] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: Cost of 8 BPCs a day: 12M Cost of 1 BPO: 750M Daily profit as a proportion of assets when that makes sense: 0.016. If we earned 1.6% of my assets per day then a Tornado BPO would make sense. We make several times that. The opportunity cost of a BPO often exceeds the accounting cost of a BPC, this is one such case. There's nothing aimless about my activities though I respond as the market shifts rather than investing heavily in something. yeah but thats where it all falls apart for your arguement at 12 mil cost of BPC a day thats 1.6% of the cost of the BPO. so your making that 1.6% per day so a BPO makes perfect sense. considering the fact that a tornando run can make 32 mil profit a day that 12 mil you spend is cutting your profits down by 1/3
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 18:54:00 - [24] - Quote Diraus Trader wrote: Lesath Scorpii wrote: Cost of 8 BPCs a day: 12M Cost of 1 BPO: 750M Daily profit as a proportion of assets when that makes sense: 0.016. If we earned 1.6% of my assets per day then a Tornado BPO would make sense. We make several times that. The opportunity cost of a BPO often exceeds the accounting cost of a BPC, this is one such case. There's nothing aimless about my activities though I respond as the market shifts rather than investing heavily in something. yeah but thats where it all falls apart for your arguement at 12 mil cost of BPC a day thats 1.6% of the cost of the BPO. so your making that 1.6% per day so a BPO makes perfect sense. considering the fact that a tornando run can make 32 mil profit a day that 12 mil you spend is cutting your profits down by 1/3 You suggest that earning 1.6% of the value of the BPO is a good thing? I could be earning 7% of the value of other assets.
Diraus Trader Speculum Ambitus 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 19:27:00 - [25] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: You suggest that earning 1.6% of the value of the BPO is a good thing? I could be earning 7% of the value of other assets. what assets? all you've really got is other peoples money . the point in the BPO's is to cut production costs down. the only real use for tech 1 BPC's lie in invention and using them to get in on short term price hikes that happen in lines. and as for the 1.6% earning . yeah I do think its a good thing you. give anybody on here an investment oppounity and promise them a 48% return on invement a month they'll snap your hand off
Liberty Eternal Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 42	Posted - 2012.04.14 21:17:00 - [26] - Quote I've privately audited the full API's given to me by Lesath and saw no evidence of foul play, and the information matches up with what I expected to see. This is a very risky investment in my opinion given the large number of alts that need to be PLEX'd and the rapid increase in isk loaned over such a short time. But I will go out on a limb and back this horse by investing the remaining 4 bil on the bond. So good luck guys, and I hope you do everything you say you can and more. Edit: Spelling and grammar
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 23:08:00 - [27] - Quote I will ensure that debts are managed before the PLEX, and thinking on it I'll probably let half the alt accounts die regardless of the money situation; I'll have two fully trained character per account by the point I have to decide. Currently all slots are filled very productively ^_^ Will convo you to finalize details.
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 23:40:00 - [28] - Quote Okay, received the money. Terms: 10%, rolling up to 2 months, paid back before new loans.
Liberty Eternal Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 42	Posted - 2012.04.14 23:46:00 - [29] - Quote Lesath Scorpii wrote: Okay, received the money. Terms: 10%, rolling up to 2 months, paid back before new loans. 4 bil sent, good luck guys, have fun!
Lesath Scorpii Cyclone Solutions Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.05.11 15:47:00 - [30] - Quote All loans paid back. Thanks, everyone! :)



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