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how many ECCM II's to allow 30 sec total firing time on a falcon?

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7shining7one7 Gallente P0KER GHOST	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:12:00 - [1] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 28/12/2008 12:14:40 DISCLAIMER THIS IS NOT A NERF FALCON OR NERF ECM THREAD NOR IS IT A STEALTH NERF ECM OR STEALTH NERF ECM FALCON THREAD, SO TAKE THOSE ARGUMENTS SOMEWHERE ELSE DISCLAIMER how many eccm II's will it hypothetically take to allow a 30 sec total firing time on a falcon over the course of 3 minutes? this is assuming the falcon has all ecm mods pointing straight at you, it is assuming the regular cookie cutter falcon ecm fit (present it, run the numbers and the chance percentage) i'm looking for an amount of eccm mods, on a battleship, disregarding everything else, that will succesfully counter a falcon ecm "alpha strike" well enough so that you get a total of 30 seconds firing time over the course of 3 minutes of battle. use eccm II's (mids) and eccm backup arrays (lows) to illustrate. a solution using projected eccm is also an option (again run the numbers) but first and foremost i want a contained (1 ship fit) example that allows a total 30 secs of firing time on a falcon within 3 minutes worth of combat. do it up, and thanks in advance.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:21:00 - [2] depends on a: - falcon pilot skills - jammer setup (number and type) - rigs/SDA's - overheating - ship being jammer - type of ECCM - overheated or no? Fill in this questionaire, then someone might calculate this for you.
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:29:00 - [3] 1 Falcon - 1 overloaded ECCM 2 Falcon - 2 overloaded ECCM 3 Falcon - 2 overloaded ECCM 4 Falcon - don't bother trying _________________
daisy dook	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:29:00 - [4] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 28/12/2008 12:14:40 DISCLAIMER THIS IS NOT A NERF FALCON OR NERF ECM THREAD NOR IS IT A STEALTH NERF ECM OR STEALTH NERF ECM FALCON THREAD, SO TAKE THOSE ARGUMENTS SOMEWHERE ELSE DISCLAIMER how many eccm II's will it hypothetically take to allow a 30 sec total firing time on a falcon over the course of 3 minutes? this is assuming the falcon has all ecm mods pointing straight at you, it is assuming the regular cookie cutter falcon ecm fit (present it, run the numbers and the chance percentage) i'm looking for an amount of eccm mods, on a battleship, disregarding everything else, that will succesfully counter a falcon ecm "alpha strike" well enough so that you get a total of 30 seconds firing time over the course of 3 minutes of battle. use eccm II's (mids) and eccm backup arrays (lows) to illustrate. a solution using projected eccm is also an option (again run the numbers) but first and foremost i want a contained (1 ship fit) example that allows a total 30 secs of firing time on a falcon within 3 minutes worth of combat. do it up, and thanks in advance. An infinite number due to the chanced based ECM mechanic. For a more serious answer you really to specify: which battleship you are using (ie initial sensor strength) the expected ECM jammer compostition (ie 1 each racial plus one multi spec) the expected low and rig slot composition (3x SDA II and 1 ECM strengh rig). the skills of the jamming character (assume all IV's) Once you've formulated your question then hopefully someone will help you. On a personal note I think that one Falcon taking out a single Battleship is excellent odds for the gang to which the Battleship belongs.
7shining7one7 Gallente P0KER GHOST	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Deva Blackfire depends on a: - falcon pilot skills - maxed out - jammer setup - a falcon cookie cutter variant: multispec + racials - rigs/SDA's - t2 rigs - overheating - no - ship being jammed - apoc - type of ECCM on target - apoc (radar) - overheated or no? - no Fill in this questionaire, then someone might calculate this for you. filled out the questionaire and thank you for the kind and swift response sir. i'm looking for the worst case scenario example (disregarding overheating) of a maxed out falcon pilot with t2 rigs ecm alpha striking an apoc, and asking the question disregarding dmg and tank, how many ecm mods do i need to get 30 secs of firing time on it within the course of 3 minutes.
Venomae Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:38:00 - [6] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 28/12/2008 12:14:40 DISCLAIMER THIS IS NOT A NERF FALCON OR NERF ECM THREAD NOR IS IT A STEALTH NERF ECM OR STEALTH NERF ECM FALCON THREAD, SO TAKE THOSE ARGUMENTS SOMEWHERE ELSE DISCLAIMER how many eccm II's will it hypothetically take to allow a 30 sec total firing time on a falcon over the course of 3 minutes? this is assuming the falcon has all ecm mods pointing straight at you, it is assuming the regular cookie cutter falcon ecm fit (present it, run the numbers and the chance percentage) i'm looking for an amount of eccm mods, on a battleship, disregarding everything else, that will succesfully counter a falcon ecm "alpha strike" well enough so that you get a total of 30 seconds firing time over the course of 3 minutes of battle. use eccm II's (mids) and eccm backup arrays (lows) to illustrate. a solution using projected eccm is also an option (again run the numbers) but first and foremost i want a contained (1 ship fit) example that allows a total 30 secs of firing time on a falcon within 3 minutes worth of combat. do it up, and thanks in advance. Well... Falcon with 4 named racials (all kinds) and three named multi ECM's... Three signal amps at lows... V skills... Jams a Raven without any ECCM with 96.7% chance. All those seven mods thrown on the Raven. With one ECCM it goes to 77.3% (signal strength 43.1) With two ECCM it goes to 53.3% (signal strength 79.1) With three ECCM it goes to 38.1% (signal strength 122) With four ECCM it goes to 31.2% (signal strength 156) But if you use a merlin in fleet with four remote ECCM you get the following... With four remote ECCM it goes to 22.8% (signal strength 223) Using new guys in pvp flying t1 frigates or cruisers with their med slots full of remote ECCM is viable tactic. But if we take there a Heron with three remote ECCM mods you get the following... With total of seven remote ECCM it goes to 19.7% (signal strength 263) Best is to bring your own falcon with you and have some small ships carrying remote ECCM around and some battleships fitted for long range. You simply can't beat falcon by your own.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.28 12:41:00 - [7] Ok ill assume: 1x multi 4x racial (tho myself i dont use multis at all) all overheated: multi: 10,1 correct racial: 15,1 wrong racial (x3): 5,0 On 1x ECCM apoc (overheated eccm): 45str multi: 0,224 to jam (22,4%) correct: 0,335 wrong: 0,11 Total chance to jam: 63%/cycle. 3 minutes = 6 jam cycles statistically you should be NOT jammed for 1 minute (2,22 cycle but i round it down to 2 full cycles). Thus you have 60 seconds firing. If you add in lock time (after being jammed) of around 10 seconds (guessing - cba to check) this gives you around 40 seconds of firing.
Kirtan Loor Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.28 13:05:00 - [8] So you want to survive 2 cycles in 3 minutes(9 cycles, 10 with the initial activiation) thats 2/10. Assuming a base sensor str of 22 base racial jamming str of 14 x 1 module base sub racial str of 4.667 x 5 modules Base chance to survive one cycle = 11% Base chance for falcon to jam you = 89% Base chance for falcon to jam you in ALL ten cycles = 0.89^10 = 31% Base chance for falcon to jam you in nine cycles and cannot jam in one cycle = 0.89^90.1110= 38.5% Sum it up and falcon gets %69.5 chance to get at least one fail. So you have: 100-69.5=30.5% chance to operate for 2 cycles out of 10 without getting jammed Same calculation with 1 Sensor Backup Array II => 78.3% chance to operate 2 cycles out of 10 without getting jammed Same calculation with 2 Sensor Backup Array II => 95.8% chance to operate 2 cycles out of 10 without getting jammed Same calculation with 1 ECCMII => 94% chance to operate 2 cycles out of 10 without getting jammed Same calculation with 2 ECCMII => 99.85% chance to operate 2 cycles out of 10 without getting jammed I hope this helps
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.28 13:10:00 - [9] 0 if you use fof or drones.
7shining7one7 Gallente P0KER GHOST	Posted - 2008.12.28 13:15:00 - [10] thx a lot for the good advice.

Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2008.12.28 13:18:00 - [11] Oops i screwed up calcs. Counted jam cycles as 30 seconds not 20 seconds ;p So in 3 minutes its 9 cycles possible not 6, of which you will be jammed 5,67 (6) cycles. 3 cycles free to shoot giving you total 60 seconds. BUT you need to include locking time (i assume every second jam cycle hits) - so you lose around 10 seconds each cycle for total of 3x 10 seconds of shooting = 30 seconds of pewpew (up to 45 if you fit sensor booster). So 1 overheated ECCM should give you 30 seconds of pewpew during 3 minutes of falcon love.
Aleus Stygian Failed Diplomacy Collidable Objects	Posted - 2008.12.28 14:44:00 - [12] For helping dispel the general Lack of Evidence around, for conciseness and clarity and for bringing into perspective the addressed subject in an unbiased manner, this thread is hereby awarded with the title of Excellent Thread. There's just one thing I'd like to say though; overheating ECCM is a bad, bad idea. Please do not include it in your calculations. _________________________________________________________
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2008.12.28 14:59:00 - [13] What is it that ppl say when Caldari complain about their missiles? Oh yah - Adapt or die. Funny how that NEVER applies to them. __________________________________________________________
Malarkie	Posted - 2008.12.28 15:14:00 - [14] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly What is it that ppl say when Caldari complain about their missiles? Oh yah - Adapt or die. Funny how that NEVER applies to them. I'm guessing you either can't or won't read. Try actually reading the thread before you post. He was in fact looking for solutions to adapt. But, I guess you'll never know since you refuse to do the most basic of things. Have a wonderful day sir.
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.12.28 16:06:00 - [15] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly What is it that ppl say when Caldari complain about their missiles? Oh yah - Adapt or die. Funny how that NEVER applies to them. ever notice how many falcon pilots are around? why adapt when you can have the best combat support ship in the game
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.12.28 16:07:00 - [16] How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? Ask some serious questions people!
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.28 17:07:00 - [17] Originally by: SheriffFruitfly What is it that ppl say when Caldari complain about their missiles? Oh yah - Adapt or die. Funny how that NEVER applies to them. try reading, it rocks, honest. - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Aleus Stygian Failed Diplomacy Collidable Objects	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 28/12/2008 20:36:19 Originally by: SheriffFruitfly What is it that ppl say when Caldari complain about their missiles? Oh yah - Adapt or die. Funny how that NEVER applies to them. Missile nerf was overdone. This has been claimed (and mathematically explained) by lots of people other than just Caldariots. ECM is somewhat overpowered, mostly because of the ill-conceived bonuses and slots on the Falcon. This has been claimed (and mathematically explained) by lots of people, even ones who fly Falcons. ECM apologists and missile proponents want to have their way, and keep the superiority of their favored modules, by means of not giving an inch, leaving the game unbalanced. This has been claimed (and is readily confirmed by looking at the forums and the suggestions of said people, and all the people who say 'ECM is fine, adapt') by lots of people, even the less insightful. And a happy new year! _________________________________________________________
Dyaven The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.12.28 20:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Venomae With total of seven remote ECCM it goes to 19.7% (signal strength 263) I find that a bit ridiculous that it takes 7 ECCM to bring a Falcon down to a 1/5th chance to jam. 3 or 4 should bring it down below a 10% chance imo.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:09:00 - [20] after you get off that first volley, or even when you are just trying to lock the falcon it will warp off, or cloak. just drop a titan on it

Kirtan Loor Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.12.28 21:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Dyaven Originally by: Venomae With total of seven remote ECCM it goes to 19.7% (signal strength 263) I find that a bit ridiculous that it takes 7 ECCM to bring a Falcon down to a 1/5th chance to jam. 3 or 4 should bring it down below a 10% chance imo. Actually it is worse. ECCM modules are stacking nerfed. Those beyond third do not really add much. You can put all 6 jamming modules on same target and each gives its full chance to jam while the ECM defense is stacking nerfed. Kinda cool isn't it.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Kirtan Loor You can put all 6 jamming modules on same target and each gives its full chance to jam while the ECM defense is stacking nerfed. Kinda cool isn't it. The stacking-nerf for ECM is provided by the fact that each one has an independent chance to jam based on the stacked ECCM on the ship they're targetting. Remember that you can fit your ship with a Gravimetric or Magnetometric backup sensor, which more than doubles your ability to resist race specific or multispectral jamming when used with projected ECCM.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.29 02:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Stuart Price on 29/12/2008 02:57:23 Engaged an anti-pie gatecamp a few weeks back. They had: Megathron Hurricane Drake Ferox Arazu Manticore Stiletto Jaguar Falcon <-- lookie here We had: Dominix Abaddon Vagabond With the following coming from 4 jumps away as backup: Nighthawk x 2 Eos Onyx Note the complete lack of Falcon's or, in fact, ANY ecm ship on our side. The fight unfolded as follows: Domi jumps in. Takes aggro, starts tanking like the Hulk on acid. Abaddon (Hello mum!) jumps in straight away and starts mangling the primary (Mega). Vaga jumps in and chases Falcon around. Stuff gets mangled. Domi goes down as backup jumps through thanks to his reppers deciding they couldn't be bothered any more (bug?). Falcon kersplodes as Vaga finally gets hold of him. They end up losing the Falcon, Arazu, Mega, Hurricane, Drake and Manticore (1 volleyed by megapulses at 40km - lol). Apparently I was jam primary the whole way through - not one cycle landed. The secret? I had 2 ECCM's fitted and we used a Vaga to chase the Falcon around. Those two ECCM's gave me a sensor strength of 79.1 (103 overloaded) which is pretty much carrier strength. A single racial ECM from a max-skilled Falcon pilot has a 17.9% chance of jamming (13.7% with overloaded ECCM). A single non-racial has a 6% chance (4.6% with overloaded ECCM). With SIX racial ECM's, the same Falcon would have a 58.7% chance of jamming me if I overload the ECCM. Which means they'd need one entire Falcon, magically set up to jam only Amarr ships, to lock me out of the fight for just over half the duration of it (not including relocking time). Most Falcon's use a 2/2/1/1 mix of racials, so there's a 50% chance of him having 2 of the appropriate racial jammers. Using 2 racials gives him a 25.5% chance, raising to 38.2% of he decides to use all his non-racials as well. If he only has ONE of the correct type of racial jammer, those numbers drop to 13.7% and 31.7% respectively. If all your battleships fit 2 ECCM's, the odds work out that the enemy Falcon pilots (multiple) would have been better off in another ship. In the case of the fight I talked about, he would certainly have been better off in another ship. tl;dr version: 2 ECCM's on a BS should be all you need. Even one should allow you enough firing time over a 3 minute period. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Awesome Marie	Posted - 2008.12.29 04:58:00 - [24] 2 eccms on every bs in gang. Are you living on that lost-island?
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.12.29 05:21:00 - [25] Edited by: Stuart Price on 29/12/2008 05:22:21 Originally by: Awesome Marie 2 eccms on every bs in gang. Are you living on that lost-island? 1. Remove sensor boosters. 2. Fit ECCM's instead. 3. ???? 4. PROFIT. It's not like that faster lock is doing you any good while jammed now is it? Seriously, sensor boosters are for snipers, tacklers and km *****s (ladies of negotiable virtue). If you need a FAST point, you use a HIC, Inty or, at a pinch, a sensor boosted BC. If you're solo, chances are you're more likely to get a Falcon dropped on you at some point, and if you're solo in a BS your lock time is pretty crap even with sensor boosters so most fights are going to be ones against people who are willing to engage (or just dumb, but you don't need sensor boosting to catch dumb people either). Not actually got any sensor boosters to remove? Then remove tackle (assuming that most people in your gang are going to have it). If you're a heavy-dps ship one of two things will happen: You will be primaried and dying (Hello torp-ravens) OR ECM ships will attempt to jam you out the fight and leave you till last (Hello plated abaddons/mega's). Having a point will be no good at all in either case in all honesty. Luckily some ships CAN fit ECCM and still have some tackle, huzzah! Fly one of those if you expect Falcons. If you're NOT a heavy-dps ship (or at least less of a threat than those around you) you don't NEED the ECCM as much since you're less likely to be an ECM target. Still can't hurt to fit one if you can spare the slot though, just in case. It's still possible to beat an attacker with numerical superiority if you fit and fly right. Likewise, it's similarly possible to beat an attacker with an ECM superiority. In any case, I fit dual ECCM's to my ships where practicable; at least one if I have four or more mids. It works more often than not, even with only one. One or two successful jam cycles on you over the duration of a fight is NOT permajammed and justifies the module since it could (statistically) be many more. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'


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