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Carithon
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Posted - 2009.01.02 14:39:00 -
[1]
Whether they are mission wrecks or belt rat wrecks, people on both sides of the issue sure like to argue over who, if anyone at all, has rights to a wreck.
So, here is my solution to this "problem".
Put a 30 minute "Whiner" timer on wrecks.
If you "pew pew" a ship into a wreck, you have 30 minutes from the point of destruction to salvage it. After that, the wreck belongs to everyone and anyone.
Call it the reverse of "buyers remorse". You leave something on the shelf only to leave the store, go to your car, think about it for a second and then come back to actually buy it.
Also, some people don't fit their ships (or can't due to slot restraints) with a salvager and/or tractor beam. They might actually have a ship specifically purchased and fitted to salvage wrecks. This will give them time to go back and grab it.
As for the whole "If you can't tractor beam it, then it's not yours" argument, let's allow wrecks to be tractor beamed once they are empty of cargo. There, problem solved.
So, suggestions? Improvements? Arguments?
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.01.02 15:15:00 -
[2]
Are you asking that salvaging other peoples wrecks would give aggression rights? Because that would not change anything other than people losing their ships in addition to their salvage.
I would like to see improvements on tractoring though. It would really help salvaging and looting other peoples wrecks. Make it give agression rights or something if you must, but having the option there would be nice.
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Carithon
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:15:00 -
[3]
In that 30 minute time-frame, then yes, I can see an agro timer being assessed. After that, then no. Wrecks are good for at least an hour, so 30 minutes isn't going to hurt anyone. Besides, the only reason why people salvage mission wrecks without asking permission is to tick people off, so why not make it worth it for both sides (one side gets to **** the other one off while the other side gets to kill them)?
You must understand here that I am a salvager, it even says so in my bio. So this "timer" would make it harder on me when I warp from belt to belt salvaging rat wrecks. But that would probably also force me to start doing missions to have wrecks to salvage, in which case this timer would help me. So it goes both ways.
Many people don't mind if you salvage their mission wrecks if you ask. I offer to pay people who let me salvage their wrecks out of thanks, but that's just me. The problem here is that people are not asking, and if you aren't asking then you probably have a different motivation then simply wanting to salvage the wrecks that people leave behind. Because if you did, you'd ask and get fleeted.
So, yeah, an agro would make sense based on the motivation of the players.
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Navick
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:23:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Navick on 02/01/2009 16:25:42
/signed
I took the time to train my alt up to Salvaging 5, Scrapmetal Processing 5, etc, and run him along with my main in order to make sure I squeeze as much isk out of every mission as I can. Having invested that much time and effort, I think you can understand why I would be as strongly against letting someone else salvage my damn wrecks as I am.
That being said, I still recognize that there are plenty of players who just abandon their wreck fields because they don't bother to salvage. I used to be one of them before I discovered how much isk I was throwing away. I would VERY much like it if CCP would find some way to give players a certain window of time in which they have exclusive rights to the salvage they've killed, while still allowing salvagers "free dibs" on anything left outside of that window.
Theft is a crime, isn't it? So why doesn't thieving in high-sec (whether stealing salvage or stealing loot from a can) involve a small sec status penalty? If a character makes a career out of stealing other people's stuff in police-patrolled systems (i.e. highsec), they should have a "criminal record" that reflects that.
I don't have a problem with people salvaging. But dammit, if I killed that wreck, I deserve first dibs on it. 
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Carithon
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Posted - 2009.01.02 16:47:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Navick
Edited by: Navick on 02/01/2009 16:25:42
Theft is a crime, isn't it? So why doesn't thieving in high-sec (whether stealing salvage or stealing loot from a can) involve a small sec status penalty? If a character makes a career out of stealing other people's stuff in police-patrolled systems (i.e. highsec), they should have a "criminal record" that reflects that.
The argument that people have made to this is that, as I have stated, wrecks don't "belong" to anyone, so it's not theft nor a crime. My rebuttal to that is that wrecks occur due to the actions of a player, or group of players. So a wreck should belong to someone, at least for a little while.
It's kind of like the tractor beaming problem also stated earlier. If a wreck does not belong to anyone, why don't I have authority to use a tractor beam on it? Because obviously it DOES belong to someone, as the "error" states.
In this case, CCP is saying two things at once: A wreck belongs to someone if you are trying to use a tractor beam on it, but it does not belong to anyone if you are trying to salvage it. 
Hopefully a "timer", or allowing tractor beams to bring in wrecks that do not have cargo in them (even though it is somewhat a different topic), will clearly state which one of two statements CCP is making is true.
But, yeah, you get my point.
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Navick
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Posted - 2009.01.02 17:11:00 -
[6]
I would have no problem with allowing someone to tractor my wrecks if in return I get a 30 minute period during which I'm the only person allowed to salvage them. Fair trade if you ask me.
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.02 18:49:00 -
[7]
forget it, CCP does not want this.
for whatever reason. their original argument was that else it infuses too much capital into the game.
i seriously don't get this argument as it is totally irrelevant if the salvage comes all from player A, or combined but of the same value from players A+B.
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Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.01.03 00:00:00 -
[8]
You're not allowed to use a tractor beam on a wreck because some of those wonderful players we have among us would tractor the loot needed to finish the mission away from the player just for the fun of it.
So either a tractor beam simply doesn't activate, or it's lumped in with taking the loot and flags you.
Salvaging on the other hand, does not block a player from finishing his mission.
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Navick
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Posted - 2009.01.03 02:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Salvaging on the other hand, does not block a player from finishing his mission.
This is a valid statement, but all it proves is that if salvaging did indeed block a player from finishing a mission it would HAVE to be prevented; this is not a reason that it SHOULDN'T be prevented.
With most wrecks, the salvage is worth as much as the loot items, if not more. Many wrecks don't even drop loot at all. The salvage items a wreck generates are part of the reward for defeating that enemy and therefore rightfully belong to the player who defeated it. If the pilot chooses not to loot/salvage his wrecks, so be it, open season to whoever finds it first... but I stand by my logic that the player who killed the wreck deserves first crack at it.
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Quan Jinn
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Posted - 2009.01.03 03:41:00 -
[10]
stop whining....jeez...donŠt you see where this is all gonna end...just stfu and play this game
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Dr NOe
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Posted - 2009.01.03 04:09:00 -
[11]
No!!! Salvage law has been established. Working AS INTENDED THANKS FOR PLAYING.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2009.01.03 11:16:00 -
[12]
How about the following change then: Mission loot drops in a special container no-one can touch. Wrecks can be tractored, looted and salvaged by everyone. First come, first served.
Does that soothe the feeling that the 3 systems should have equal rules?
Originally by: Signature
Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Terra Mikael
SRIUS BISNIS
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Posted - 2009.01.03 11:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dr NOe
No!!! Salvage law has been established. Working AS INTENDED THANKS FOR PLAYING.
This.
________________________________
Originally by: Korovyov
You WIN! And by win, I mean suck horse manure.
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Sudden Outcry
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Posted - 2009.01.03 17:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dr NOe
No!!! Salvage law has been established. Working AS INTENDED THANKS FOR PLAYING.
Captain, we're picking up something on the Ninja Detector....
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Berandus Agustus
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Posted - 2009.01.04 21:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Berandus Agustus on 04/01/2009 21:50:08
we either need to consolidate all the zomg wreck thieves threads into one or CCP needs to sticky a THIS IS OUR FINAL RULING post in C&P
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.01.05 00:53:00 -
[16]
You've got a solution in search of a problem.
Seriously, did you need to bring the salvage whine into Game Development Forum?
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Ironfleet.com |
Danny3388
Cold Blooded Killers
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Posted - 2009.01.06 06:17:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Danny3388 on 06/01/2009 06:18:16
In highsec wars this is a very annoying problem as when a player kills a war target every other player near the destroyed ship races to get the loot and someone not the person who destroyed the ship usually does.
Ownership of wrecks needs to be changed so that the player who shoots the ship and causes a wreck to be created belongs to both the person whos ship it was and the person who destroyed it and no one else. So if someone does take from the wreck they are red to the player who created it and whos ship it was.
Its a really bad game mechanic that needs to be sorted, as all it does is annoy people by not allowing them to destroy the thief.
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.01.08 05:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Danny3388
Edited by: Danny3388 on 06/01/2009 06:18:16
In highsec wars this is a very annoying problem as when a player kills a war target every other player near the destroyed ship races to get the loot and someone not the person who destroyed the ship usually does.
Ownership of wrecks needs to be changed so that the player who shoots the ship and causes a wreck to be created belongs to both the person whos ship it was and the person who destroyed it and no one else. So if someone does take from the wreck they are red to the player who created it and whos ship it was.
Its a really bad game mechanic that needs to be sorted, as all it does is annoy people by not allowing them to destroy the thief.
Like you would never do it in the same position!!!
what you are complaining aboutis one of my other sources of income. salvaging and looting hi sec gate camps in times of war.!!! |
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