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Grief play and the real world.

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Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.05 18:50:00 - [91] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 18:51:02 Originally by: Matrix Skye My point is they're not playing the game as a form of entertainment. Rather they're using it as a tool to grief and satisfy their own sadistic needs. I am gonna have to agree with Matrix on this point. It kind of amuses me when people continuously use the old excuse that it is just internet spaceships, or it is just a game. Tell that to the people shooting each other on soccer fields because their ten year old pushed another ten year old. Or the bookies who kidnap and assault someone because daddy has a gambling habit. Those are just games too, right? The only difference here is that the people who are harassed have no easy or tangible way to harm you in real life. Let's face it: You are a person. They are a person. Game or no game, the only thing separating you from physical harm is the pure luck of stumbling across that one person in a thousand with a knack for technology who has sociopathic tendencies and will actually hunt you down and share their own view of humanity with you in real life. The EULA is there to punish offenders, not protect the victims. Sound familiar? Only in this case, the clauses contained therein, pertaining to real life threats, are just that, real life. How many ISK do you think your ingame brethren could be bought out for, to tell that deranged sociopath your real name, or what city you live in? Think about it. _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Ralarina Caldari Vivicide	Posted - 2009.01.05 18:52:00 - [92] Originally by: Mithos Victus Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 18:51:02 Originally by: Matrix Skye My point is they're not playing the game as a form of entertainment. Rather they're using it as a tool to grief and satisfy their own sadistic needs. I am gonna have to agree with Matrix on this point. It kind of amuses me when people continuously use the old excuse that it is just internet spaceships, or it is just a game. Tell that to the people shooting each other on soccer fields because their ten year old pushed another ten year old. Or the bookies who kidnap and assault someone because daddy has a gambling habit. Those are just games too, right? The only difference here is that the people who are harassed have no easy or tangible way to harm you in real life. Let's face it: You are a person. They are a person. Game or no game, the only thing separating you from physical harm is the pure luck of stumbling across that one person in a thousand with a knack for technology who has sociopathic tendencies and will actually hunt you down and share their own view of humanity with you in real life. The EULA is there to punish offenders, not protect the victims. Sound familiar? Only in this case, the clauses contained therein, pertaining to real life threats, are just that, real life. How many ISK do you think your ingame brethren could be bought out for, to tell that deranged sociopath your real name, or what city you live in? Think about it. It's just spaceships. On the Internet. --
Miss Uylear Caldari The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:00:00 - [93] Lords, Ladies. Folk of brain and folk of none, this thread is to promote good manners, NOT to establish whether people are nasty in rl coz they are deemed nasty in this little game... wow, talk about missing the point... I see no man like man see's me.
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:02:00 - [94] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 19:02:31 Originally by: Miss Uylear Lords, Ladies. Folk of brain and folk of none, this thread is to promote good manners, NOT to establish whether people are nasty in rl coz they are deemed nasty in this little game... wow, talk about missing the point... It's just internet spaceships, what do manners matter? Furthermore, what does it matter, they could not possibly harm you IRL right? So why do you not just take amusement in their threats like everything else? _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:21:00 - [95] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 19:23:24 Let's see if I can ferret this out: For the sake of argument, all involved parties in the list below are to be considered individual people with the inalienable rights provided to them by the Geneva Convention. Aggressor chooses to play game online. Aggressor chooses to exploit victim within game rules. *Aggressor frequently claims when victim's decry said exploitation, that it's just internet spaceships.* A one in a thousand victim, having a free will of their own and taking it upon themselves to act at their own discretion, takes offense and threatens real life harm to aggressor. Aggressor, whether fearing real or imagined harm, takes offense at threat of bodily harm, and petitions CCP to punish the victim. So... where exactly above, is it absolutely, and unequivocally just internet spaceships? If it was, why not just take amusement in threats from your victims that could in no possible way ever come to fruition? I agree that griefing itself is certainly allowed within the game mechanic, and so long as it is meant to somehow advance the player themself in game, through either a combination of entertainment, ingame ISK, material or immaterial valuables, that it is certainly part of the game's appeal as a sandbox of wonderful diversity and competitiveness. However, just because you say, without question, that this is merely a game, does not take the real life out of it. So, asking people to play nice as it were, because it is just a game, is a little naive in my opinion. You are asking people to not threaten you with real life bodily harm, but then at the same time saying it is just a game so there is no harm. Well, which is it? _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Jasmina Melt Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:29:00 - [96] Edited by: Jasmina Melt on 05/01/2009 19:30:16 I generally hate everyone until I get to know him closer, so basically i just assume everybody's **** until proven otherwise. Now while IRL there are some mean laws and stuff preventing me from tormenting/killing/scamming/whatevering my fellow men, why not do it in a game? All these threads about griefing, real life issues and hobby-psychologists lately seriously lack content. It's always the same rambling about how great the op is and how intellectual superior he must be to point at all the obvious real-life losers and explain them their innermost selfes. Look what you did to me, I am rambling myself. I HATE YOU. TO HELL WITH EVERYONE! Also, I totally lost my train of thoughts. (Who am I quoting to death here, WTF?) Oh sorry for posting this just into your most remarkable discussion, this thread was just unlucky to be tabbed open while browsing. Or something.
Bosie Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:39:00 - [97] The problem is not the griefers or those they grief. It's those who think they hold the moral high ground when comparing real lives with a PvP computer game. Real life threats do not belong in a computer game that is all about player vs player interactions. "There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:46:00 - [98] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 19:49:43 Edited by: Mithos Victus on 05/01/2009 19:48:22 Originally by: Bosie Real life threats do not belong in a computer game that is all about player vs player interactions. Wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. The problem is you cannot force this upon others who have free will. So if they choose to feel like their real lives are impacted in negative ways by actions ingame and they make real life threats because of that, then it is no longer a game anymore. So, because of this, was it unequivocally a game to begin with? For 99% of us it is. For the other 1% it is more than that. So what you have is 99% game, 1% real life. Never forget that 1%, it is always out there. The computer monitor does not provide you invulnerability, only the semblance of it. So yes, real life threats are bad. Yes, they should be punished under the EULA. But no, this is not 100% game, if it were, we'd all be NPC AIs. _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Diek Ran Amarr Autonums	Posted - 2009.01.05 19:47:00 - [99] OP you're really having trouble delivering your point here, right? So it doesn't seem to me like you're actually enjoying what ever you call griefing.
Lavraen Minmatar Animus Furandi	Posted - 2009.01.05 20:00:00 - [100] click, click, click There has to be a nerf falcons thread around here somewhere!
Nexus Kinnon Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.01.05 21:24:00 - [101] Originally by: Lavraen click, click, click There has to be a nerf falcons thread around here somewhere! look for any posts by garmon
Malephar	Posted - 2009.01.05 22:12:00 - [102] Originally by: Miss Uylear Er, its the manner of the griefing sir. This!
de4deye Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2009.01.05 23:06:00 - [103]
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.05 23:37:00 - [104] OP "grief" plays and enjoys the reaction. Grief victims now know that OP doesn't like rl insults. Grief victim can now grief the griefer by making said threats and get their warm fuzzy in turn. Turn about is fair play, etc. Not sure why anybody would get off on that, but there does seem to be a level of hypocrisy taking place here. "Let me enjoy my griefing you, but don't grief me back." I figure anyone taking an online threat seriously has similar self esteem issues to anyone who takes getting griefed in an online game so seriously as to make a threat to begin with.
Le Poupon Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.05 23:42:00 - [105] Originally by: de4deye Little albert would love that. -------sig------------------------------------ Thing is I'm not acctualy an Alt Post like a butterfly Sting like a bee
de4deye Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2009.01.05 23:53:00 - [106] Originally by: Le Poupon Originally by: de4deye Little albert would love that. I lol'd
Souvera Corvus Gallente SPORADIC MOVEMENT FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:41:00 - [107] Everytime someone comes on here to extol how much they love griefing they also feel the need to tell us how lovely they are in real life. Protest too much?
Le Poupon Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:45:00 - [108] before she died i was mother teresa -------sig------------------------------------ Thing is I'm not acctualy an Alt Post like a butterfly Sting like a bee
Faekurias Black Legion Command Black Legion.	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:45:00 - [109] I think the dudes who can't separate things you do in internet spaceships from actual real world events are the REAL ones in the danger zone. The rest of us can tell the difference between game and reality. For the ones where the lines get blurry, they go kill someone in real life for pixels in a game. ------------------ Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate
Caleb Marathon	Posted - 2009.01.06 00:58:00 - [110] Killing a missioner can get me faction/t2 stuff + a killmail. I like to win when I'm better than others or because I outsmarted someone. It has nothing to do with my irl persona. Griefing someone in eve for a killmail or just for the fun and thrill of the kill, or for the loot is just the same as gettin that sweet drop when I played Diablo when I was younger.
Easley Thames The Maverick Navy Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.06 01:52:00 - [111] Loss is a part of the game. The fact that you actually face risk is a big part of why this game is worth playing. If you feel "griefed" and "just want to be left alone" this is either the wrong game or you need to change your mindset before you continue.
Matrix Skye Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.06 02:12:00 - [112] Originally by: Faekurias I think the dudes who can't separate things you do in internet spaceships from actual real world events are the REAL ones in the danger zone. The rest of us can tell the difference between game and reality. For the ones where the lines get blurry, they go kill someone in real life for pixels in a game. This works both ways. Griefers use internet spaceship games as a tool to grief IRL. They derive their pleasure from knowing they're p*ssing people in real life. It isn't "just" a game to them. The game is a facilitator/arena that allows them to get their "fix". So yes, it works both ways.
Miss Uylear Caldari The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.01.06 10:24:00 - [113] Originally by: Matrix Skye This works both ways. Griefers use internet spaceship games as a tool to grief IRL. They derive their pleasure from knowing they're p*ssing people in real life. It isn't "just" a game to them. The game is a facilitator/arena that allows them to get their "fix". So yes, it works both ways. So what about those with 2nd accounts and alts that are traders, miners. Mission runners or ratting characters. I guess your diagnosis is that they are slipt personality types, who need to suck in all the range of human emotion. I for one have what can be called a 'carebear' alt. He is very good, very succesful and also quite charming. Has a nice repuation amongst peers that he can be trusted and wont fob you off. And the two characters have nothing to do with each other. I see no man like man see's me.
Matrix Skye Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.06 12:28:00 - [114] ^^ You're not getting it. Re-read what I wrote.
Miss Uylear Caldari The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.01.06 12:55:00 - [115] Verily, but since this game is based in this real life, it doesn't cost to have some manners. A better class of player, where the mouths are clean, the wit wise and the population proud of it. I see no man like man see's me.
low26 Caldari Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2009.01.06 14:31:00 - [116] Doesn't anyone have any common sense IRL anymore? All this stupid Internet psychology bs is silly. Eve is a pvp game, that's what it was created as, what it was intended to be and when you start it tells you no place is safe. If you can't handle that then quit. Anyone with the tiniest shred of common sense should realize that a RL threat in a game is over the edge and CCP agrees with that view. All this talk that if you grief in the game you grief IRL is just stupid.So by that reasoning i guess all the guys on here playing female characters want to be girls IRL. MMORPG Mostly, Men ,Online, Roleplaying, Girls
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.06 14:39:00 - [117] Originally by: Miss Uylear Verily, but since this game is based in this real life, it doesn't cost to have some manners. A better class of player, where the mouths are clean, the wit wise and the population proud of it. Yes, that would be nice, if every person you came across had the wherewithal to properly engage in witty banter and game in such a way that the most lasting entertainment value could be garnered from interpersonal conflict and encounters. But now we are down to arguing semantics and cultural demographics. What is razor wit to a person in one demographic may be obscene vulgarity to another in a different corner of the globe. So, now we are left to decide what is proper netiquette as said netiquette changes from one region to the next, disappears altogether, or becomes smothering and autocratic. _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
Miss Uylear Caldari The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.01.06 14:46:00 - [118] Originally by: low26 Doesn't anyone have any common sense IRL anymore? All this stupid Internet psychology bs is silly. Eve is a pvp game, that's what it was created as, what it was intended to be and when you start it tells you no place is safe. If you can't handle that then quit. Anyone with the tiniest shred of common sense should realize that a RL threat in a game is over the edge and CCP agrees with that view. All this talk that if you grief in the game you grief IRL is just stupid.So by that reasoning i guess all the guys on here playing female characters want to be girls IRL. MMORPG Mostly, Men ,Online, Roleplaying, Girls Yeah, what he said. Its true. I see no man like man see's me.
Mithos Victus Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.01.06 14:46:00 - [119] Edited by: Mithos Victus on 06/01/2009 15:33:14 Originally by: low26 Doesn't anyone have any common sense IRL anymore? All this stupid Internet psychology bs is silly. Eve is a pvp game, that's what it was created as, what it was intended to be and when you start it tells you no place is safe. If you can't handle that then quit. Anyone with the tiniest shred of common sense should realize that a RL threat in a game is over the edge and CCP agrees with that view. All this talk that if you grief in the game you grief IRL is just stupid.So by that reasoning i guess all the guys on here playing female characters want to be girls IRL. MMORPG Mostly, Men ,Online, Roleplaying, Girls This is your opinion, it does not reflect the views of the 1% of people who cannot distinguish this game from reality. Because these people exist, you are never guaranteed absolute security IRL in any environment on the internet. The EULA is there to punish offenders, not protect the victim. Generalizing and demeaning any social introspective into the nature of online morals and ethics is rather terse and dismissive. Just because YOU feel that it is implausible for harassment within the game that does not fall within the scope and nomenclature of the EULA and thus is not tangibly evident as requiring CCP involvement to ever affect you in real life, does not mean that others feel this way. OTHERS may feel some forms of harassment within the confines of the internet domain DO in fact harm them tangibly in reality whether emotionally, physically, or in spirit. THAT is the point. Just because 99% of us realize almost all harassment that does not break the EULA is part of the flavor and appeal of the game does not FORCE that remaining 1% to agree with said OPINION. _______________________________________________ [...a lion lurking in the plain]
low26 Caldari Maximum Yarrage	Posted - 2009.01.06 15:59:00 - [120] Originally by: Mithos Victus Edited by: Mithos Victus on 06/01/2009 15:05:02 Edited by: Mithos Victus on 06/01/2009 14:48:43 Originally by: low26 Doesn't anyone have any common sense IRL anymore? All this stupid Internet psychology bs is silly. Eve is a pvp game, that's what it was created as, what it was intended to be and when you start it tells you no place is safe. If you can't handle that then quit. Anyone with the tiniest shred of common sense should realize that a RL threat in a game is over the edge and CCP agrees with that view. All this talk that if you grief in the game you grief IRL is just stupid.So by that reasoning i guess all the guys on here playing female characters want to be girls IRL. MMORPG Mostly, Men ,Online, Roleplaying, Girls This is your opinion, it does not reflect the views of the 1% of people who cannot distinguish this game from reality. Because these people exist, you are never guaranteed absolute security IRL in any environment on the internet. The EULA is there to punish offenders, not protect the victim. Generalizing and demeaning any social introspective into the nature of online morals and ethics is rather terse and dismissive. Just because YOU feel that it is impossible for harassment within the game that does not fall within the scope and nomenclature of the EULA and thus is not tangibly evident as requiring CCP involvement should not ever affect you in real life, does not mean that others feel this way. OTHERS may feel some forms of harassment within the confines of the internet domain DO in fact harm them tangibly in reality whether emotionally, physically, or in spirit. THAT is the point. Just because 99% of us realize almost all harassment that does not break the EULA is part of the flavor and appeal of the game does not FORCE that remaining 1% to agree with said OPINION. So we must be all inclusive I see because 1% of the game population may possibly be mentally deficient we must consider their feelings and not be judgemental as to how we effect their real little lives. Give me a break with the feel good hippie crap. Some people get their jollies off of griefing the forums so should we restrict their speech too? CCP makes a product the product is made a certain way by design and non-consensual pvp is part of that design. If you do not like the product as designed don't purchase it, no one is forcing you too. Learn game mechanics! This all inclusive communistic phycobable is bs. EULA does state RL threats are not tolerated in their game.

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