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Pirates agains macro miners

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Davelantor Caldari Knights of MADD World Allegiance of The Hunt	Posted - 2009.01.12 08:39:00 - [1] I say there should be a 20% chanse that when a pirate pack spawns or spawned , IF they are remaind LOCK on a target, they should call for backup after 3 minutes, how this will help: i seen lots of Macro miners that doesnt shoot enemy ships, and proven to be macro miners by many other players, so i say lets improve the pirates in a way that if the player doesnt fight back, they will call for backup, and that backup will be big enough to destroy that hulk, ofcorse this should only be aplied on a ex-hummer class ships because macro players usualy rely on the tank of HULK i am a player who got sick of these noobs and if CCP going to do something about it, atleast do this. or just apply this tactic to security stages between 0.4 and 0.9
Total Disaster Caldari Frontier Industry	Posted - 2009.01.12 09:16:00 - [2] Edited by: Total Disaster on 12/01/2009 09:16:08 so you're making a macro miner out of every single miner that doesn't bother killing the beltrats? Can you please push my "reset" button.. my macro is bugged
MrWendell	Posted - 2009.01.12 09:45:00 - [3] A civilian shield booster is enough to prevent any shield damage from .9 rats (maybe .8 but I can't remember) so why would anyone bother killing rats unless they wanted the bounty/loot and happened to have a combat drone or two with them. I see what you're saying (and it would be quite an interesting way of chain-ratting in 0.0) but all you would do in hi-sec is destroy mining as unprotected miners could end up with whole fleets of ships attacking them.
Davelantor Caldari Knights of MADD World Allegiance of The Hunt	Posted - 2009.01.12 09:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Davelantor on 12/01/2009 10:01:19 Originally by: Total Disaster Edited by: Total Disaster on 12/01/2009 09:16:08 so you're making a macro miner out of every single miner that doesn't bother killing the beltrats? Can you please push my "reset" button.. my macro is bugged Originally by: MrWendell A civilian shield booster is enough to prevent any shield damage from .9 rats (maybe .8 but I can't remember) so why would anyone bother killing rats unless they wanted the bounty/loot and happened to have a combat drone or two with them. I see what you're saying (and it would be quite an interesting way of chain-ratting in 0.0) but all you would do in hi-sec is destroy mining as unprotected miners could end up with whole fleets of ships attacking them. ok , i see your points and i agree it was foolish of me to comeup with this kind of solution, but perhaps this idea will inspire someone to comeup with a better one ;) while mining i only kill rats because the cunstant sound of explotions is very anoying, and no i cant lower the sounds :P and i dont loot them, they just remain there, met with couple of people that know i will not come after them if they loot the wrecks :P so the galaxy is cleaner :)
Brutal Bruno	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Brutal Bruno on 15/01/2009 12:10:34 I would like to see pirets call for back up, maybe the first backup would not be enough to pop a hulk. Let them call 2 or 3 times befor the bring in the big guns. That would not kill hi-sec mining it would make it more intresting and you could even make more isk of it then normal. Changespawnig hi-sec rats while mining, I like that.
Total Disaster Caldari Frontier Industry	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:10:00 - [6] so if you make it often enough you will fight against multiple BS spawn in hi-sec? sweet.. no need to go to 0.0 anymore
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:18:00 - [7] move all belts down to 0.7 and below 2nd it should be fixed in the next patch is ccp is moving all fixed belts out. Will for all belts require ship scanner and like anamollies they will be moving to around planets. To find any belts u will use onboard scanner scan around each planet find belt locations ( make sure to bm for mining ops) and like cosmic anamolies with combat belts are going same way. Big anti macro measure
Total Disaster Caldari Frontier Industry	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:17:00 - [8] Originally by: ollobrains2 Big anti macro measure nope.... only more money for those programming and selling the macros.. they will deploy it on test-server before going live anyway, that's enough time to adapt the macros
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:30:00 - [9] Here's another take on this, which can (and will) have effects outside of belt rats. The longer a rat is firing upon a target, the more damage it inflicts. This way, if a player ignores those two pesky frigates for too long, they'll eventually destroy his ship. The player will have to take action at some point and destroy the ships, otherwise he's done for. The pros: # If this is applied to all rats, especially in missions and plexes, all rats will become more dangerous and tanking, as a tactic, will be nerfed in favour of ganking. It's a step towards PvP-style combat against PvE rats. Some plexes and missions will have to be downgraded a little bit to be doable under this, so this change is best held back for the "rat AI improvement" changes that are being worked on. # Hopefully it'll stop the gankbear whiners from crying over missions being braindead ISK-making machines. # It will stop missions from being braindead ISK-making machines. The cons: # There is nothing to stop macrominers from simply adding a "Launch Drones - kill hostiles - return to Drone Bay" routine to their macro program at regular intervals. This can be countered by telling rat AI to target player drones before their ships. Rats can do that already, in case you're wondering. # Balancing the rate of damage increase will be tricky. We're looking at damage that won't crush the weaker ships in a couple of minutes, but it can't take too long either, otherwise a Hulk will just dock to unload its cargo before getting into any danger. # Mission-runners will whine about this on the forums for the next 5 years or so. Thoughts?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Zaknussem Here's another take on this, which can (and will) have effects outside of belt rats. The longer a rat is firing upon a target, the more damage it inflicts. .... Thoughts? "Stupidity is very strong in this one." If not that you are either totally unaware of how mission work (tons of NPC that require time to kill) or simply you are a mission runner hater. None of the options make it a good suggestion.

Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.01.15 18:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul "Stupidity is very strong in this one." Ignorance is bliss, which explains the empty grin on your narrow(minded) head. Otherwise, you would know that I, like you, have made an in-game career out of mission running. I do not hate running missions either, but I think they're dull as dishwater, which is one reason why I bring forth this idea. Quote: None of the options make it a good suggestion. And why should I even consider your opinion when you bring no reasoning to it...besides the obvious one that it would inconvenience you in your mission running? Don't you think this change would inconvenience me as well? I would no longer be able to bring my nber missioning ship of Easy Money for a solo run against half the rats in the system and emerge victorious. Instead, I would adapt, change tactics and bring friends. Doesn't that sound more fun than the semi-AFK playstyle that missions offer now?
Wardo21	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:09:00 - [12] Generally speaking the macroers leave the belt at regular intervals anyhow, don't they? Or have any been seen using jetcans and macroed haulers? Either of the two suggestions would fail because the timer would have to be reset when they leave and return to the belt. Whats the best a hulk can do for time, 30 minutes doing ice before having to empty the holds? In that case these suggestions might work. Two or three cycles mining ore is at most 9 minutes before the hold is full and you have to empty it somewhere. The call for reinforcements doesn't need to be battleships in high sec, just call for more frigates, eventually the DPS will break the tank. (Unless you spawn too many NPCs and break the server.) But even then, there is room for abuse. I'm thinking of a bait hulk to attract the frigates, and something to swat and salvage them like a battle cruiser. Given enough frigates you will collect enough salvage to make that profitable. Not to mention the miscellaneous loot to recycle for minerals.
Owin Forsyth	Posted - 2009.01.16 01:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Total Disaster Edited by: Total Disaster on 12/01/2009 09:16:08 so you're making a macro miner out of every single miner that doesn't bother killing the beltrats? Can you please push my "reset" button.. my macro is bugged You don't mine do you? There is no way you could unless you have your speakers unplugged or the sound completely off. And if you do mine with no sound then you would have to constantly check the targeted asteroids to see if they have depleted or not. Rats shooting hulks in belts can be heard from one end of the belt to the other and macro miners ignore them cause they aren't even at home. They're at work while their computer plays the game at home. The sound is so bothersome that I usually leave the belt. Oh, any while typing this, I had two asteroids deplete, Aura told me.
Bo'Tox Amarr Arkor Inc	Posted - 2009.01.16 03:34:00 - [14] No, I dont see a problem with this... I know ppl in my systems mine Ice and I've talked to them as they see me in the system day after day too (well around a certain time of day for the hour I can log in!). They have passive tanks on hulks and macs to wait out trhe rats, but as I see it, why NOT have drones to kill the rats and earn extra isk?? If your too stupid to fit drones (almost a gimme in high sec) then you should be ganked by NPC's...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Zaknussem Originally by: Venkul Mul "Stupidity is very strong in this one." Ignorance is bliss, which explains the empty grin on your narrow(minded) head. Otherwise, you would know that I, like you, have made an in-game career out of mission running. I do not hate running missions either, but I think they're dull as dishwater, which is one reason why I bring forth this idea. Quote: None of the options make it a good suggestion. And why should I even consider your opinion when you bring no reasoning to it...besides the obvious one that it would inconvenience you in your mission running? Don't you think this change would inconvenience me as well? I would no longer be able to bring my nber missioning ship of Easy Money for a solo run against half the rats in the system and emerge victorious. Instead, I would adapt, change tactics and bring friends. Doesn't that sound more fun than the semi-AFK playstyle that missions offer now? If you know missions, especially the new ones, you know that you can have mission with up one hundred small ships. Increase the ship damage over time and hose small ships will kill any ship. As they are small ship the time needed to kill them is long as the size of the ship will mitigate a lot of damage, your drones will need to change target every two cycles and so on. If you really are doing missions you are either choosing only those with a few big ships (something that not all the players can do) or enjoy the thought of falling missions. Probably your reply will be something like. "You should kill them faster". More gank will work against a few big ship, not against a horde of small ships that you already instapop when you hit them. So I stay my opinion, increasing damage over time is a very bad idea. As you are Caldari you should have some experience against ECM using ships. As there is nothing that a player can do to prevent being blinded by ECM (increased sensor strength make no difference against NPC) there you have a perfect example of a kind of mission where a player can be unable of kill the enemy for a long streak of time. So what will happen if your idea is implemented? Get jammed at the start of the mission and you are ****ed until DT reset the damage? And the usual comment too "bring friend". Why? Missions are one of the part of the game made for solo play, are you so eager to force people to group to do them?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Owin Forsyth Originally by: Total Disaster Edited by: Total Disaster on 12/01/2009 09:16:08 so you're making a macro miner out of every single miner that doesn't bother killing the beltrats? Can you please push my "reset" button.. my macro is bugged You don't mine do you? There is no way you could unless you have your speakers unplugged or the sound completely off. And if you do mine with no sound then you would have to constantly check the targeted asteroids to see if they have depleted or not. Rats shooting hulks in belts can be heard from one end of the belt to the other and macro miners ignore them cause they aren't even at home. They're at work while their computer plays the game at home. The sound is so bothersome that I usually leave the belt. Oh, any while typing this, I had two asteroids deplete, Aura told me. EVE has sound? Seriously, in almost 3 years of play I had the sound active at most 10 days, when I wanted to hear the new music. Combat sounds and EVE music are the last thing I want when using Vent, TS or EVE voice, end even before doing PvP I did found it pretty annoying after half an hour.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.16 12:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Bo'Tox No, I dont see a problem with this... I know ppl in my systems mine Ice and I've talked to them as they see me in the system day after day too (well around a certain time of day for the hour I can log in!). They have passive tanks on hulks and macs to wait out trhe rats, but as I see it, why NOT have drones to kill the rats and earn extra isk?? If your too stupid to fit drones (almost a gimme in high sec) then you should be ganked by NPC's... A small list of reason why people can not bother to kill NPC in belts: People used to 0.0 where you keep the spawn that you can tank; gankers playing with aggro and getting the drones to autoattack (and if you set them as passive the don't kill the NPC); using mining drones (in asteroid belts); not willing to spend SP to skill drones on a alt. Spending some other minute probably I could find some other reason. I normally kill them, but I am at the keyboard when mining (alt tabbing), if I will go AFK for a long period it will depend on a lot of factors if I will put out the drones or not.
Owin Forsyth	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Bo'Tox No, I dont see a problem with this... I know ppl in my systems mine Ice and I've talked to them as they see me in the system day after day too (well around a certain time of day for the hour I can log in!). They have passive tanks on hulks and macs to wait out trhe rats, but as I see it, why NOT have drones to kill the rats and earn extra isk?? If your too stupid to fit drones (almost a gimme in high sec) then you should be ganked by NPC's... A small list of reason why people can not bother to kill NPC in belts: People used to 0.0 where you keep the spawn that you can tank; gankers playing with aggro and getting the drones to autoattack (and if you set them as passive the don't kill the NPC); using mining drones (in asteroid belts); not willing to spend SP to skill drones on a alt. Spending some other minute probably I could find some other reason. I normally kill them, but I am at the keyboard when mining (alt tabbing), if I will go AFK for a long period it will depend on a lot of factors if I will put out the drones or not. Based on all of your responses, I can surmise that you are in the wrong thread. What the original posted proposed has nothing to do with missions or 0.0. There are absolutely no macro miners in 0.0 and no macro miners doing missions. Why are you discussing 0.0 and missions in a thread about macro miners in empire space?
Stygian Knight Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:49:00 - [19] Originally by: Owin Forsyth Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Bo'Tox No, I dont see a problem with this... I know ppl in my systems mine Ice and I've talked to them as they see me in the system day after day too (well around a certain time of day for the hour I can log in!). They have passive tanks on hulks and macs to wait out trhe rats, but as I see it, why NOT have drones to kill the rats and earn extra isk?? If your too stupid to fit drones (almost a gimme in high sec) then you should be ganked by NPC's... A small list of reason why people can not bother to kill NPC in belts: People used to 0.0 where you keep the spawn that you can tank; gankers playing with aggro and getting the drones to autoattack (and if you set them as passive the don't kill the NPC); using mining drones (in asteroid belts); not willing to spend SP to skill drones on a alt. Spending some other minute probably I could find some other reason. I normally kill them, but I am at the keyboard when mining (alt tabbing), if I will go AFK for a long period it will depend on a lot of factors if I will put out the drones or not. Based on all of your responses, I can surmise that you are in the wrong thread. What the original posted proposed has nothing to do with missions or 0.0. There are absolutely no macro miners in 0.0 and no macro miners doing missions. Why are you discussing 0.0 and missions in a thread about macro miners in empire space?
Zaknussem Caldari Intrum Industria	Posted - 2009.01.16 19:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Owin Forsyth Based on all of your responses, I can surmise that you are in the wrong thread. What the original posted proposed has nothing to do with missions or 0.0. There are absolutely no macro miners in 0.0 and no macro miners doing missions. Why are you discussing 0.0 and missions in a thread about macro miners in empire space? I'll take the blame for that, as my suggestion would affect missions as well. Thank you for posting your reasoning, Venkul Mul. It's a good read. I'll agree with you that under current missioning mechanics, my idea would be a disaster. But CCP has plans for missions. Reduce the number of rats in a mission, make them smarter, make them more challenging. Their bounties would also increase (hopefully). This idea would be far more appropriate as a part of those revisions.

Captain Pompous	Posted - 2009.01.16 20:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Davelantor proven to be macro miners by many other players This, sir, is a Class A moronic idea. Only CCP can tell for sure who are using macros
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:31:00 - [22] Only reason why macroing is possible is that ccp keeps it safe. They could make concord not attack people if they aggro stuff at asteroid belts, even in hi sec, they could make macro hauling missions with collaterals and more expensive cargo (which would be actually something you could sell). Concord wouldn't spawn in deadspace either... etc. The thing is. They don't want to. Apparently. All recent changes have been just encouraging AFK style playing, including macroing.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:01:00 - [23] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/01/2009 11:12:54 Originally by: Owin Forsyth Originally by: Venkul Mul A small list of reason why people can not bother to kill NPC in belts: People used to 0.0 where you keep the spawn that you can tank; gankers playing with aggro and getting the drones to autoattack (and if you set them as passive the don't kill the NPC); using mining drones (in asteroid belts); not willing to spend SP to skill drones on a alt. Spending some other minute probably I could find some other reason. I normally kill them, but I am at the keyboard when mining (alt tabbing), if I will go AFK for a long period it will depend on a lot of factors if I will put out the drones or not. Based on all of your responses, I can surmise that you are in the wrong thread. What the original posted proposed has nothing to do with missions or 0.0. There are absolutely no macro miners in 0.0 and no macro miners doing missions. Why are you discussing 0.0 and missions in a thread about macro miners in empire space? From what you wrote, you are very bad at reading and comprehension. So some explanation and clarification so you can get what I was saying. Where I cite missions in this post? Re-read. People that mine in 0.0 usually keep the spawns they can tank, so when they mine in high sec they tend to do the same. For a period it was possible to play with the drone autoattack rules and the jetcans in a way that made the drones attack a can thief, allowing him to shoot back the miner. No idea if it has been corrected, but leaving the drones out on automatic is not a good idea. So where I am discussing missions or 0.0 in the piece you cited? If you have problem with a post, cite that post and not some random thing. if the post that offended you is the n. 15 read the posts n. 9, 10 and 11 to see where it started.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.17 11:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Zaknussem Originally by: Owin Forsyth Based on all of your responses, I can surmise that you are in the wrong thread. What the original posted proposed has nothing to do with missions or 0.0. There are absolutely no macro miners in 0.0 and no macro miners doing missions. Why are you discussing 0.0 and missions in a thread about macro miners in empire space? I'll take the blame for that, as my suggestion would affect missions as well. Thank you for posting your reasoning, Venkul Mul. It's a good read. I'll agree with you that under current missioning mechanics, my idea would be a disaster. But CCP has plans for missions. Reduce the number of rats in a mission, make them smarter, make them more challenging. Their bounties would also increase (hopefully). This idea would be far more appropriate as a part of those revisions. Possibly, but in theory in the same expansion the mining part would be redone (I am not convinced either of those changes will be in the march 10 expansion but CCP can surprise us). Honestly I don't like the option of increased damage. It require an extra database load (somewhere the system must keep track of what ship has done some attack), it can be a nightmare if the ship don't reset damage when the original target warp away or is destroyed and if the damage reset would be easy to avoid (macro would be instructed to warp to station when shield reach 205 or something similar). Think what would happen if the damage don't reset after the target is destructed or flee; some unsuspecting miner could warp to a belt, find 3 frigates and say: "no problem, my drones will kill them" and then discover that the frigates damage has been boosted so much that his ship has no chance of surviving. He would discover that only after his ship start taking damage, so with some swarm (in some system you can get faction cruiser spawn in high sec) or if he is using a barge it would be very difficult to survive. Even fleeing with enough hull damage can be a problem as miners usually don't mount armour/hull reppers and docking with enough damage could require him to pay for station repair, burning most of the gain of 1 hour of mining. Noting serious for someone with enough game experience in eve, but serious enough for a player with a limited set of skills.
Osamma BenLaden	Posted - 2009.01.19 12:53:00 - [25] I love the idea of more ships being called as a Hulk can tank a lot of damage. This will let my alt in a BC wait for a good group to spawn before coming in for some quick easy ISK and great faction items.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.19 13:01:00 - [26] Originally by: Osamma BenLaden I love the idea of more ships being called as a Hulk can tank a lot of damage. This will let my alt in a BC wait for a good group to spawn before coming in for some quick easy ISK and great faction items. 50 m3 and 5 millions skill point in drones do a lot of damage too, so an active hulk pilot could farm the swarms, leaving only 1 ship alive and waiting for the next group to spawn while at the same time mining to his heart content. the problem is that even today not all the players fly in hulk and have 5 million SP in drones. A game mechanic that would be balanced for a hulk pilot with a large set of skillpoint will be a death sentence even for a mackinaw pilot, even worse for a retriever or covetor pilot (not even considering the mining frigate that most new players use). I don't think that balancing high sec belt rats around a hulk pilot would be a good idea.
Mia Sin Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:51:00 - [27] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Only reason why macroing is possible is that ccp keeps it safe. They could make concord not attack people if they aggro stuff at asteroid belts, even in hi sec, For anybody who actually spends his time at the keyboard while mining - or at least most of it - mining is not only dull, but also not all that profitable. I'm fairly new at this game (effectively 4 months with my miner) and already now my trade alts could come close to the ISK that my mining main generates. With that in mind, who do you think would actually bother with mining in highsec if anybody could shoot them down without concord interfering? Pretty much only corps who have the means to defend their miners. But then again, why would those corps even bother with highsec where it would probably become harder to defend your miners than in low sec (no sov in the system). As I said, I'm fairly new but I think somebody else could probably continue the "what if" scenario and tell you that it would end pretty bad. Not to mention the trit price...
Vaerla Myshtana Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.19 16:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Bo'Tox If your too stupid to fit drones (almost a gimme in high sec) then you should be ganked by NPC's... Not all miners have Hulks and not all good low-level mining ships have drone bays or spare weapon slots. I agree that there is some merit to having pirates gang up on miners who don't blow up the rats in low-sec, but high-sec mining is relatively safe for a reason. The key is better tools to confound the macro miners, which it sounds like we are starting to see. Of course, if the anti-macros get too good, the price of Trit will SKYROCKET because it won't just stop the macros but the AFKs as well.


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